Podcaster: Mike Simmons; Guest: John Goldsmith
Title: Big Impact Astrononomy: John Goldsmith
Organization: Astronomy for Equity
Link : https://astro4equity.org/big-impact-astronomy-podcast/
Description: John Goldsmith is a prolific astrophotographer from WA, Western Australia. He has 35 years experience and was mentored by the late Akira Fujii.
In this episode, host Mike Simmons welcomes John Goldsmith, an astrophotographer from Western Australia with over 35 years of experience. John shares his journey in astrophotography, his PhD research on Aboriginal astronomical knowledge, and the ethical considerations in astrophotography. He discusses the Wolf Creek Meteorite Crater and its significance in Aboriginal lore, the deep connection between the night sky and culture, and his collaborations with global photographers. From photographing remote landscapes to promoting ethical astrophotography, John’s passion for the night sky is truly inspiring.
Key Highlights:
- Astrophotography as a tool for cultural and scientific storytelling
- The significance of Wolf Creek Crater in Aboriginal knowledge
- The impact of light pollution on astronomy and preserving dark skies
- The ethics of astrophotography and the rise of AI-generated images
- A special outdoor Milky Way exhibition at Wave Rock
Big Impact Astronomy: Through the Telescope is a video podcast that highlights the remarkable work of astronomy enthusiasts worldwide. Hosted by Mike Simmons, this podcast showcases how astronomy is used to improve lives in schools, refugee camps, hospitals, and more. Each episode features dedicated volunteers who introduce STEM in developing countries, inspire girls to pursue science careers, and bring hope to communities in crisis. Join us as we explore the stories of these unsung heroes making a difference through the wonders of the cosmos.
Bio: Mike Simmons is the founder of Astronomy for Equity ( https://bmsis.org/astro4equity/ ). Others on the team, including people around the world in astronomy and space exploration, authors and philosophers, designers and artists and more will be added as the website is developed.
Mike founded Astronomers Without Borders in 2006 to unite astronomy and space enthusiasts around the world through their common interests. During the UN-declared International Year of Astronomy 2009, Mike led the effort to organize the Cornerstone Project 100 Hours of Astronomy in more than 100 countries, with an estimated one million people looking through outreach telescopes in one night.
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Transcript:
[Mike Simmons]
Welcome to big impact astronomy where we explore stories of how the stars are changing lives and connecting communities around the world From stargazing under war-torn skies to bringing science education to isolated communities We uncover the incredible impact of astronomy beyond the observatory This episode of big impact astronomy is brought to you by Primalucha labs Primalucha labs makes space exploration accessible for all and empowers communities worldwide through innovative educational astronomy solutions Hello everyone, I’m Mike Simmons the founder of astronomy for equity and welcome to the podcast today We have astrophotographer John Goldsmith from Western, Australia John has more than 35 years of doing astrophotography in some very creative ways He was mentored by the legendary Japanese astrophotographer Akira Fuji He’s a member of the world at night. He’s had more than 40 astrophotography exhibitions He’s published three books and he’s got a couple of films as well and all sorts of other ventures that are related to both the Wonder of the Night Sky and Sort of an artistic take on it.
He has a PhD in aboriginal astronomical knowledge cosmos culture and landscape and this came about from his astrophotography and Has led to a whole bunch of other things a lot of collaborations we have an awful lot to talk about and another big thing that he’s been involved in is ethical issues with astrophotography, so I’ve known John for quite some time being an opposite ends of the earth We don’t get to meet that often, but we have met up so John welcome and thanks very much for taking part here
[John Goldsmith]
Hello, Mike. It’s great to see you again. It’s a real pleasure to be able to have a chat today.
Thank you
[Mike Simmons]
yeah, well, it’s always a pleasure to chat John whether in person or Online as we’re doing now So you’ve done an awful lot of different things in astrophotography And one of the things that I’m gonna ask you about these things along the way because this podcast is really about How we use astronomy for good and astronomy is an inspiration your astrophotography will inspire people It’s educating people about Aboriginal lore it’s doing a lot of good in a lot of ways So I want to hit on those points as we go But you’ve got a lot that you’ve had going on and you know right off the bat I know everybody is nobody’s paying attention to you right now They’re looking at what’s over your left shoulder right now, and so tell us about that
[John Goldsmith]
Yes, well the painting that is right behind me is a Aboriginal painting from Western Australia by a very special Aboriginal artist who is actually no longer with us He has passed away, but this particular painting has brought together so much of this fascinating subject of the night sky culture landscape the cosmos human knowledge of the night sky this painting is of A place called Kandimala, which is also known by its Western name as Wolf Creek meteorite crater and This is a giant impact crater in Western Australia It’s located about two and a half thousand kilometers from where I live in Perth in Western Australia it’s in the Kimberley region the top end of Western Australia and It is a giant impact crater a meteorites that slammed into our planet something like a hundred and twenty thousand years ago my particular journey with astrophotography has combined this use of photography with the night sky the cosmos and through that journey I Encountered Wolf Creek meteorite crater for the first time in 1998 that was my very first journey to that landscape it was a dream journey a very special opportunity to travel to a remote part of Western Australia and to Experience the impact crater It is a national park and the photograph that we’re looking at now is a aerial view a photograph that I took from a Cessna aircraft flying over Wolf Creek crater and just to give you a sense of the scale of this site It is absolutely extraordinary This impact crater is approximately 900 meters in diameter Almost 900 meters in diameter. It is an exquisite Location it’s located on the edge of the Great Sandy Desert. It is a remote part of Australia and It is an astronomical site It is where a giant meteorite has slammed into the earth to produce this impact site So as a astrophotographer This place was very attractive a very special location So my first journey to this area was in 1998 and as a result of that I actually got to meet some of the Aboriginal elders and artists Aboriginal artists Who are associated with that area Gundy Mullal Wolf Creek meteorite crater this was a quite remarkable what happened because I began to realize that there’s certain stories that people wanted to share about This landscape and these are stories that I’ve not not heard about before I and I should also note the first time in the Western world that this crater was discovered was in 1947 after World War two. This is how recent the discovery of this 900 meter impact crater is 1947 when it was first recognized by Western people and of course Aboriginal people have known about the crater for a long time. So the painting that I have behind me is a representation of one of the public stories about the crater of The star that has fallen to the earth to form the crater and you can actually see it.
You can see the star here Following the path down to the land and then the red area here of the impact crater Itself as well as an Aboriginal painting. This is a fantastic Representation of a story involving the stars and the land and the sharing of that knowledge This is a public story that that I’m relating here So it’s a beautiful part of the story here and that just absolutely fascinated me so this is one of the Incredible landscapes in Western Australia where I’ve been able to do astrophotography over many years now many repeated journeys to landscapes such as this so I think I’m sharing with you Mike a bit of my enthusiasm and Fascination about this whole subject. It’s been a lifelong fascination.
[Mike Simmons]
The enthusiasm definitely comes through John That’s something I’ve noted in you all along anyway I’m interested in some things about this. Let’s take a look at that again So this looks like a fairly new crater. It hasn’t worn down a lot over time Is it known how old this crater is?
[John Goldsmith]
That is a really interesting question because one of the reasons why that’s interesting is the basic question Did people actually witness the fall of this impact crater? Now, that’s an incredible question Yeah now in Australia human occupation has occurred here in Australia for at least 60,000 years and the further the research goes the further back in time that date is being pushed It’s at least 60,000 years based on archaeological evidence like that the age of the impact crater When Eugene Shoemaker did his research in Australia associated with Wolf Creek meteorite crater Famous American scientist no longer with us that point in time.
It was believed that Wolf Creek crater was perhaps 300,000 years old when when the meteorite hit the earth There’s actually more recent research that is now Suggested that it’s more recent probably about 120,000 years or so when the impact occurred Approximately the age of the crater has become more recent based on the latest research Yeah, it’s that fascinating question. Did ancient people Experience that particular fall now probably not in this particular case Yeah, there are other instances where ancient cultures have absolutely witnessed major Meteorite falls that’s a remarkable subject in that way. So it suggests at the moment that Wolf Creek crater was probably Predating human occupation by a considerable margin, but it’s it’s an interesting area of research.
[Mike Simmons]
Yes This brought your attention really to aboriginal traditional knowledge and You went into this in a big way has this led to more awareness of aboriginal culture and With the night sky with you know The rest of the people in Australia and so on and also I mean the follow-up question is is that okay with them because you Mentioned this is the public story and we know that there are a lot of issues with Taking the aboriginal knowledge in places and just putting it out there and just sort of doesn’t belong anymore So yes, what’s been the impact so to speak of? Wolf Creek crater and the aboriginal traditional knowledge that goes with it with yeah in Australia in general
[John Goldsmith]
so this field of learning has Developed considerably in the last 20 to 30 years or so as recently as that the journey of Australia the impact of settlement Western occupation in Australia has clearly had a large impact on aboriginal communities in Australia Originally, there were more than 200 aboriginal language groups across Australia many of those languages are still spoken Including here in Perth the Noongar language that is still spoken but sadly some languages have actually been lost as a result of the impact of What’s happened over the last 200 years in Australia? This story is actually quite similar to what has happened in other parts of the world as well. So when I Began to realize as a young teenager that there was in fact stories about the night sky that were being openly shared by our aboriginal communities here in Western Australia in particular the story of the seven sisters and The emu in the sky this the emu pattern in the sky is a very very special story This dates back when I first encountered this back to Halley’s Comet 1986 when Halley’s Comet was in the sky and As a journey, we traveled out to the remote part of Western Australia to observe Halley’s Comet and to photograph it and to see the meteor showers at that time of the year as well.
This is April 1986 Akira Fuji the famous Japanese astrophotographer was with us He was photographing Halley’s Comet with our group at that time It was this extraordinary experience because here we were in this remote landscape a vast landscape very sparse population out there the sky is Magnificent the most incredibly dark sky that I’d ever experienced and here we were with this Astronomical object in the sky the Halley’s Comet we had the students I was a teenager early teenager at that time as part of our school astronomy group and Had the opportunity to experience the so-called once-in-a-lifetime event of Halley’s Comet and here with our international colleagues Akira Fuji from Japan and others and also the local people who were sharing the Indigenous stories the emu in the sky story and also seven sisters to some extent That was my first introduction for me. It was a remarkable introduction to begin the journey of Realizing the beautiful knowledge the beautiful understanding and relation to the natural environment that many Aboriginal communities have had and Continue to have to this day so this learning about the astronomical in the Australian context has been a Really special journey.
It’s one of learning. It’s one of respect we’re traveling this path together and this is also a way of Helping to deal with certain past issues the reconciliation process as well in Australia So these are really important themes with a open heart with respect Patience and that building up of appreciation and knowledge has produced this wonderful rich area of learning and appreciation That’s a perspective that I bring to this subject and for me personally Ultimately, it’s actually led to a PhD in this subject I’ve actually been able to give back to our Australian community the fruit of my research on this subject so that’s a way in which I’ve personally helped to learn and appreciate and then share to our broader community what I’ve learned and The magnificent painting that we have here featuring Andy Malone Wolf Creek meteorite crater is just one example of that These locations are very very special places for astrophotography The sky is incredibly dark Mike if you ever come to this part of the world any time in the future remember these places
[Mike Simmons]
This is something that I’ve noticed before that and you know I’ve done a lot of work in connecting people around the world through astronomy and this is Not halfway around the world.
This is cultures who are intertwined in the same area connecting through Astronomical lore but with the the sky itself because you mentioned some things like the seven six sisters and The emu is not something that we see. That’s actually a pattern that’s seen in the Center of the Milky Way, I believe so we can see it, but it’s not the same from here So that is very interesting to me that even in a local area like this where there are a lot of sensitivities The sky is sort of brought people together Created a lot more awareness and understanding which is you know, it’s really something I’ve worked on for for a long time as well.
[John Goldsmith]
I absolutely agree to that and this is in fact one of the reasons why the subject of astronomy and Astrophotography is actually so wonderful because my community Yes, it’s here in Western Australia. Yes. I’m an Australian but actually it’s a global community and the number of times where I’ve been able to have interactions and conversations with people from other parts of the world specifically on Astrophotography projects has been absolutely wonderful What I’ve really encountered is that when you have a common experience a shared experience Language barriers don’t even matter There is a way of communicating irrespective of language so long as we have the common Experience and the common enjoyment of the night sky.
So the connection with Japan with Akira Fuji Muhammad in Algeria in the Sahara Desert Where we’ve collaborated the New York skyline and the 9-11, you know skyline site That’s another example the Romanian Cosmopoets the Cosmopoetry led by Romania the UK England context Stonehenge and the ancient culture connected to the cosmos there Egypt and the Great Pyramids Comets Hale-Bopp in 1997 and a Incredible adventure going to the Great Pyramids Giza to photograph Comet Hale-Bopp above that location There’s many many examples in my personal experience of working with other communities around the world and Sharing that love of the night sky. It’s a wonderful experience and by doing that with respect Appreciating other people being open-minded to learn and to experience new experiences and in particular to share the absolute Wonder and beauty of the night sky with others is one of the absolute joys that you can have in this life and and I just feel Very very fortunate in the experiences that I’ve been able to have personally I know with the common experience of the night sky with our friends all over the world that creates connection That creates experience shared experience It’s a wonderful activity to be involved in so I I just feel so very very fortunate to have been able to be a part of this and to share some of my knowledge and experience and also to learn Enormous amounts from other people with our enjoyment of the night sky. It’s a wonderful subject.
[Mike Simmons]
Absolutely. That’s fantastic It couldn’t be put any better than that. So John it’s time.
We looked at some of your photos now, so let’s take a look at a few Here’s here’s one that that I really like I’ve seen some done like this, but you’ve got the southern celestial pole there and We look like we’re driving right to it.
[John Goldsmith]
So now tell us about this one Well, this is actually one of my favorites astro photos This was taken back in the days of film based astrophotography Predating digital in fact, and so this star trail image is a four-hour duration exposure of the southern stars and as a astrophotographer, I Absolutely. Love a Real photographic challenge under the night sky. And so this particular image is What I regard as a Really challenging image to achieve and the reason why I say that is not only is it a long single exposure Under natural light under moonlight, although it looks like it’s daytime It’s actually completely at nighttime and it’s the natural colors of the landscape and the sky under moonlight But the very special feature that we have here is that we are we are looking towards the South Celestial Pole so we are orientated looking due south at the South Celestial Pole the center of the image and This is the point in the sky where all of the stars appear to rotate around this is the point that telescopes are aligned to so that they can track the stars correctly and This particular location, this is an Archetypal image of Western Australia. If you look at the the color of the landscape it is this enormous vast landscape Exquisite color these muted colors of the Australian Outback landscape and it gives you this sense of vastness where what you see is nature It’s the stars and nature on a vast scale and this Remote gravel roads that just stretches into the distance all the way to the horizon a dead straight road Which happens to be aligned?
perfectly True north true south that’s the orientation when I realized this this is a fairly rare Circumstance to have all of these Circumstances come together that alignments the right lighting beautiful clear sky the southern stars all of those factors have to literally align and This is this is the resulting image And so I’ve I’ve actually named this image the road to the center of the universe It’s just a lovely story and a beautiful image of Western Australia the southern night sky one of my favorites
[Mike Simmons]
Yeah, you’re right. I’ve Seen images with roads heading off into the distance, but never Aligned with the pole like this and that that’s what makes it really amazing. It looks like you’re going into Driving into a funnel or something, you know in the center
[John Goldsmith]
It does give that impression and of course The other feature is a dead straight road all the way to the horizon now in Western Australia We have many long distance journeys that we have to embark on to do astrophotography So this is quite typical for us long journeys in remote areas And this particular image the road to the center of the universe is one of the results of that Yeah, so it’s one of my favorite images.
Yes.
[Mike Simmons]
Yeah. Yeah, this should be on Astrophotographers You know wish list for when they’re in Western, Australia And you know, you mentioned that the terrain and the colors and so on in some ways. It’s not too unlike our Southwest u.s. Here, but you know, they’re there aren’t that many places are wide open. Is that the color is a much It’s it’s a rich golden color. So and you know Did this on film which adds something to it and of course this would be completely different it was done on digital That’s that’s true.
[John Goldsmith]
Yeah, that’s that’s quite true And also one of the interesting things that can be noticed with this type of an image of course nowadays with image processing and montages photo mosaics composite images and Artificial intelligence, it’s very easy to generate images that are actually not real Those types of images are not real. They are artificial creations Whereas this image is real. This is a photographic image Literally a single four hour exposure So as a photographer, this is part of the attraction of this subject to me the challenge of documenting Nature in its reality and not an artificially, you know composite type Effectively fake image so that challenge as a photographer to document nature in its reality to me That’s a really special objective to have and that is where the challenge of astrophotography is placed as well So yeah, it’s an important aspect of this image
[Mike Simmons]
Well, and you’ve been very active in that aspect and we’ll talk about that in a little bit too because that’s very important now with Quite a few things in astrophotography. Let’s look at Now this one.
This is pretty spectacular. In fact, I have a meteorite that’s shaped like that rock there, but it’s hand size not huge like that the way you’ve captured the curves of The stars going around the pole within that really to me is wonderful.
[John Goldsmith]
Thank you. Thank you. Yes Yeah, so this image is actually recorded with a fisheye camera lens.
It’s quite an extreme wide-angle image 180 degrees from corner to corner and Once again, including the South Celestial Pole the center of the stars Circling around at that point and this is another image from Western Australia. It’s a fairly remote location It’s many hours journey from Perth the capital city into the outback of Western Australia You are in a remote area in this zone Kilometers away and there’s no people the specific location is called sandstone the nearest community to this site is a place called sandstone and The common name of this Location is called London Bridge It is a natural arch bridge that is formed from ancient erosion of the landscape the laterite Tapping of the surface of the landscape and over huge lengths of time The natural erosion has slowly eaten away at the landscape and it’s produced this Wonderful location, which is the natural arch bridge.
So from a Astrophotography point of view. This is a superb location to be photographing the night sky And this is one of the images. Yes.
[Mike Simmons]
Yeah. Yeah, it’s fantastic. I have another name for it Mars I mean the the color of the soil there The tree and the the other green things kind of give it away that it’s on earth But it is kind of reminiscent of Mars there, isn’t it?
[John Goldsmith]
That’s actually a really interesting comment Mike because as it happens many landscapes in Western Australia have that reddish ochre Orange type color. It’s a very rusted Environment that’s the natural color of large parts of Western Australia so with astrophotography under moonlight that color is recorded in images and And in fact WA has been the location of various expeditions journeys experiments in relation to future journeys to Mars simulations journey simulations using the the West Australian landscape so you actually get this kind of a sensation when you’re when you’re out in these remote areas and Often I’ve been out either by myself or with one other person very small groups of people Doing this type of photography and you get this amazing sense of being in this vast huge landscape Exquisitely beautiful actually quite a tough Landscape, it’s harsh.
It’s dry much of Western Australia is very desert like so it’s that harshness of the landscape, but also There’s a subtle beauty about the landscape, which is just wonderful so to see to encounter the landscape at night as Astrophotographers do is a wonderful time to experience the landscape.
[Mike Simmons]
Yeah, it’s it’s beautiful and Knowing people in the entertainment industry. I mean you think of this is that should be a film location for Shooting and rather we have other places too. But now this is beautiful.
So let’s take a look at this now this This is not an astrophotograph You’re looking the other way.
[John Goldsmith]
That’s right, yes. So this is one of my journeys to a major impact crater in Western Australia, Wolf Creek Meteorite Crater, and the Djaru Aboriginal name of this site is called Kandi Mullal, the meteorite crater. It’s, as we’ve had a bit of a discussion about this, this is a absolutely astonishing site.
It is a massive impact crater, almost 900 metres in diameter, and approximately 120,000 years ago, approximately, when this impact occurred. And it was discovered by Australians, non-Aboriginal people, as recently as 1947. So, you know, it’s as recent as that, as a major meteorite crater was discovered in Western Australia.
So my interest in this site, after many years of astrophotography, on the bucket list of places to photograph the night sky was Wolf Creek Meteorite Crater. And so I did my first journey in 1998, visiting this site. It’s about well over 2,000 kilometres, almost 3,000 kilometres from Perth in Western Australia.
And you’re still in Western Australia at that stage. It’s a long journey. And that’s where I began to encounter the Aboriginal stories about this landscape.
And I just found that absolutely fascinating. So I was able to journey back to Kandimala, Wolf Creek Meteorite Crater, on numerous journeys over the years, documenting the various stories and knowledge of the night sky from the Aboriginal communities of this area. And ultimately, this became part of PhD research that I carried out.
And for those of you, I’ll just show you this document here. This is the PhD that I wrote, Cosmos, Culture and Landscape in 2014. And this PhD, this documents the knowledge and investigation that I did into Aboriginal astronomical knowledge in mainly Western Australia.
And Wolf Creek Crater, Kandimala, forms a very significant part of this PhD research. What drove me to do this was one of the early elders who I met in that early phase, we realised that this is some of the stories and knowledge to do with the crater and the night sky. I began to suspect that this has actually never been recorded before or understood.
This was new information that I’d never heard of in the past. And in discussing with the particular elders, basically, it was a clear request, John, please document this. So we collaborated, we worked together.
I was guided by the wishes of the elders as to what they felt is important to document and share. And that was the basis of the research that was done. So in my own way, I’ve been able to contribute to learning about Aboriginal culture in Australia, contributing to a subject that has actually been very poorly understood for many, many decades now.
And so we’re finally beginning to catch up with that learning and appreciation of this range of knowledge. A true collaboration, working together, listening to the wishes of the local community, the local elders and the local artists. This is all about ethical conduct, working in a genuine good manner with communities in that way.
And I’m really proud of what has been accomplished here. And as we’ve discussed in the past, this particular image here, one beautiful representation from this part of the world, Wolf Creek Meteorite Crater, of the star that fell to the earth forming Wolf Creek Crater right here, the star that fell to the earth here, and one of the Aboriginal paintings that has helped to record that story. So this has really been a story about quietly learning, sharing information, sharing experience, being together and learning and appreciating this incredible landscape in Western Australia.
So I just feel really blessed that this has been possible to do and a huge respect to the elders and the artists of this region. I admire them greatly.
[Mike Simmons]
So what does their lore say about how this crater was formed?
[John Goldsmith]
One example of a really surprising piece of knowledge that came out was, I was literally doing a video interview on the edge, on the crater rim of Kandimalal, Wolf Creek Meteorite Crater, with one of the elders back in 1999 and recording various stories literally on the edge of the crater. And he began to speak about this shooting star that would shake the earth. And I thought, well, this is extremely unusual.
What is he actually referring to? So we explored that subject and he began to use a particular word that described this audio and vibration effect from a shooting star. So from my astronomical knowledge, I was aware that it is possible with large meteors, fireball meteors, that you can have sonic booms and other types of effects like that.
Seismographs can record the shockwave of large fireballs and ultimately meteors for those that actually hit the ground. So I knew from a scientific point of view that what I was hearing was absolutely entirely possible. And then he used the name Gulung Muru, that particular name to describe the shooting star that shook the earth, the vibration shaking of the earth.
And that just amazed me because not only was there awareness of this rare astronomical event, but there was even a name used in the Djaru Aboriginal language, that particular language group in that part of Western Australia that described that astronomical event. So I just found that just extraordinary. And that was in 1999 when that discussion took place, literally at Wolf Creek Crater.
And that just opened up a whole new world that, you know, there is intriguing knowledge, you know, that is out there. And if the approach is genuine and respectful and guided by the wishes of the elders and the artists and the community, then as effectively outsiders, people such as myself, we can begin to learn and appreciate this body of knowledge that is actually out there. So that’s just one example of that particular insight as to this learning.
[Mike Simmons]
It’s a good example of how astronomy can be used to foster interactions between different cultures because we have different stories about the same things in the sky, the same phenomena. And it’s hard for us to understand what they’re really talking about in other cultures in things where, you know, it’s just not familiar to us. But in this case, you heard what they were saying and you knew the basis of the cultural stories already.
So, you know, that’s really interesting. A couple of things about this picture. I noticed that it must have been taken in spring or something.
There’s a lot of colour there. It looks like it’s flowering.
[John Goldsmith]
Yes. In this part of the world, in the Kimberley region, the northern part of Western Australia, there are two main seasons, climate seasons. One is the dry, the dry season, and the other is the wet.
So from a practical point of view for travelling in remote areas, it is the dry season that is the most practical to be travelling around to locations like this. And also from if our mission is astrophotography, we also want clear skies and that mainly occurs during the dry season. So this particular image was photographed in the dry season.
I was in a aircraft as we flew down to Wolf Creek crater from the nearest main community, Halls Creek, about 140 kilometres distance. One of the exquisite things about Gundimala, Wolf Creek crater, is the fact that the crater is full of life. It is a living crater.
The plants and the flowers, the native animals, the lizards, the bird life, it is a crater that is alive with life. And one of the beautiful stories that emerged from the Aboriginal elder in 1999 was in the very centre of the crater, there is the salty bright area in the very centre of the crater. And in the middle, you can see quite clearly that central zone in the crater there.
In the middle, there are these small sinkholes where there is water. Now, in this landscape, if you have access to water, that is major because water is life-giving. It is a dry landscape.
And so knowing where water sources are in this dry landscape is extremely important. And at one beautiful moment, the Aboriginal elder who I was with, he knelt down at the edge of this small water seepage and he started breaking twigs off the plants and he just put them on the edge of the water there. And I asked him, what was he doing?
And he said, ah, I’m making a little platform for the birds to come down and drink from the water in the centre of the crater. And that moment, I get goosebumps right now, that moment was exquisitely beautiful because what this demonstrated was care for the natural world by people, by Aboriginal people. And his small gesture of what he did there, which was not thinking about himself, he was thinking about the well-being of the life that he’s surrounded by, the bird life, and that’s what he did.
And this occurred at Wolf Creek Crater in 1999 with the Aboriginal elder in the very centre of the crater doing that altruistic action to help nature. I think that is one of the most exquisite stories, you know, and this occurred at this landscape. Incredible.
This site, which was originally caused by the impact of the giant meteorite, vastly destructive and damaging, causing the crater, this is 120,000 years or so ago, similar power as to like a nuclear explosion in terms of the power to create this impact crater. So the original event was highly destructive, caused a massive scar on our earth, and so over the years nature has come back, life has reasserted itself, it’s come back, re-established. And if we go right up to what I experienced in 1999 with this beautiful encounter with the Aboriginal elder, with that altruistic action, what he did in the centre of the crater, I find it astonishing.
I really do. And the subject of astrophotography, this is where this subject has helped to lead me and the link to Aboriginal culture, to PhD research and how I’ve been able to give back to my community in Australia to share this knowledge, the learnings in that way. So I regard it as a great privilege to have been able to do this, to appreciate this part of the world and the cultures of this area.
[Mike Simmons]
That’s really fascinating. I mean, there’s so much more we can talk about, I think about even with this one object, because the connection between the original people there, the Westerners who came in, the night sky that we all see, it’s quite fascinating. Let’s take a look in here now.
Is this a self-portrait?
[John Goldsmith]
Almost a self-portrait. This is a very special location in Western Australia. It’s one of my favourite astrophotography locations.
And it’s actually relatively close to Perth, the capital city. It’s about a two-hour drive north of the city, about 180 kilometres to the north. And the location is called The Pinnacles, also known as Nambung National Park.
That’s the Aboriginal Indigenous name of that particular landscape. And it’s these amazing rocky pillars that emerge from the ground. The location from an astrophotography point of view is superb, because first of all, we’ve got a superb landscape, this amazing otherworld-like landscape.
We’ve got a great night sky, dark, dark night sky. And yeah, it’s just a stunning location. So this is one of the images that I’ve taken with the person featured in this image is actually Babak Tafreshi, the leader of the World at Night, on one of his journeys to Western Australia here.
So it’s an example of a beautiful twilight evening image featuring the pinnacles emerging out of the ground in that way, that otherworld atmosphere that you get. One of my favourite locations.
[Mike Simmons]
Here’s something fascinating, both the surroundings and what’s going on. You’ve got an exhibition going here. It is not in the middle of the city.
What an extraordinary place.
[John Goldsmith]
Yes, yes. So this landscape is a place called Wave Rock in Western Australia. It’s located about four hours drive east of Perth, the capital city, approximately 400 kilometres east of Perth.
And it’s in the Wheatbelt Zone of Western Australia. It’s a natural rock feature, a granite dome natural landscape. And over huge durations of time, it has become eroded into this superb wave-like form, hence the name Wave Rock.
So it’s a superb location and a very good astrophotography location in this part of the world. Now, interestingly, there is also a very special Aboriginal story relating this landscape to the night sky. And the public story refers to the spirit woman who leaps up into the night sky, into the Milky Way at this location.
So there’s a strong connection, cultural connection of this landscape, Wave Rock, with Aboriginal culture to this day, which gives a really interesting appreciation of this area. Now, there’s another very special feature about this zone. And it just so happens that the Milky Way galaxy, our Milky Way, when you look at the Milky Way and you see in the centre of the Milky Way zone, you see the bright central bulge of the Milky Way.
And that centre of our Milky Way passes directly overhead at this latitude. We’re at about minus 31 degrees south in terms of latitude in the Southern Hemisphere. And that means that the very centre of our Milky Way galaxy, at the right time of the year and at the right time of the night, passes directly overhead.
And this is the only zone on our planet at this latitude zone where you can witness that. In the Northern Hemisphere, you never see that. You never see the centre of the Milky Way passing directly overhead.
So if you want to be able to experience that, you need to come down to the Southern Hemisphere at the right time of the year and at the right time of the night and you can experience that. So this is what we did as part of a unique outdoor astrophotography exhibition at Wave Rock. And we timed this event to coincide with the passing of the centre of our galaxy passing directly overhead.
This was in late August, a few years ago. And so we called this exhibition Under the Milky Way. So we actually deployed a set of giant light boxes.
You can see two of them here at the base of Wave Rock. So this is quite a rare circumstance of where the astrophotography exhibition is literally taken outdoors, onto country, into the landscape, into the local community like that, and deployed so that visitors can enjoy for the duration that we were here for this event. And we pushed this idea even further, because in Australia there is a beautiful song track by the name of Under the Milky Way by the music group that’s called The Church.
And it is a beautiful music track. It’s one of my favourite music tracks. So I collaborated with a local musician and he was able to create a new version of that particular music track.
So that was incorporated into the outdoor astrophotography exhibition at Wave Rock with the experience of the Milky Way passing directly overhead. This is an example of where we’ve brought in astrophotography, an amazing landscape, the local community, Aboriginal culture and creativity through music. All of these elements have come together for that particular event that we hosted at Wave Rock.
And this is one example of the images of the events there. This is the kind of collaboration which I really enjoy and I’m pleased to share this with you.
[Mike Simmons]
People had to travel for four hours to get to this experience. I wouldn’t call it an exhibition, it’s an experience.
[John Goldsmith]
Yeah, that’s absolutely true. So it does become an experience. And one of the crescendo moments of the experience was to, at night time, the silent procession, walking towards the exhibition at night, the images are glowing because they’re illuminated inside the light boxes.
And we then looked up into the night sky and there is the heart of our Milky Way galaxy directly overhead. And it was this actually quite profound moment in a way, because this was not just looking at some photographs, this is you are part of the cosmos. And that sensation actually came through, through this experience, that connection with the vast cosmos, Milky Way, and the amazing landscape that we have here.
[Mike Simmons]
So before we go on to show your most recent book here, I want to get back to something that you mentioned that you’ve been very active in, which has to do with digital processing. We’ve seen a lot of fake astrophotos. We’ve seen a lot of things where people actually took the images but combined them or processed them in ways that represent something that doesn’t actually occur in nature.
And especially when we have big events like the solar eclipse coming here in the US next month. But this is something that you’ve been very active in. And this is really important too, because the importance to me is that the public is fascinated by astronomy and they want to see these things.
They want to see real things. And it does a disservice, I think, to those who are using astronomy to educate people and so on, to miseducate them and give them things that aren’t really real.
[John Goldsmith]
I absolutely agree with those views, Mike. Yes. So I got involved in this subject because of the practical experience of astrophotography, the presentation of exhibitions, publishing books, using content on the internet, film productions.
And over the years I’ve seen an increase in images that literally are not real. And if it’s not clearly understood by the general public, audiences out there, so that they understand what they’re actually seeing, then that can be very misleading. And it can actually not encourage learning.
It can be misinformation. There’s that perspective like that. Now, as an astrophotographer, what drives me is we have an extraordinary natural environment out there.
And the role of the astrophotographer primarily, in my opinion, is to be able to document and record real astronomical events. That is part of where the challenge is in the photography. And so your goal, or my goal, is to achieve images that are as true to nature as I can achieve, images that have integrity, images that are accurate representations of the night sky.
And so there are certain things that I would not support in terms of images. For example, an artificial layering of a background sky with a landscape which was taken at a different location, that to me is really not on. Because unless it’s clearly understood that that image is digital art, it’s not a photograph, it’s an artificial creation, then it can mislead people.
In recent times, we’re now seeing the huge dramatic increase in completely synthetic images, the rise of AI and artificially generated images. Once again, if it’s not properly understood that what you’re actually seeing is literally not real, then there can be a real issue about understanding representation. Yes.
[Mike Simmons]
Right. One of the things that comes up is that people create images and it’s fine if that’s what they want to do. But like you said, it’s artwork in a sense.
They don’t necessarily say this is what it is. And I’ve seen examples of very popular images where people have taken it to be real. And the photographer has provided a little information, but not enough to say this is what this is and this is how it’s done.
It’s no different in a sense than the artwork behind you there and saying, well, this is what it looks like. It doesn’t, but it’s a representation. And other astrophotographers, such as In the World at Night, which you mentioned, they may not want to do that sort of thing, but they have no problem with it as long as it’s described as it’s supposed to be.
But then we have the problem too that people will take that, they’ll take off the copyright, they’ll share it somewhere else and say what it is. So it’s a difficult fight that we go on all the time. And we should have you a whole session to talk about the ethics here.
We’re both part of The World at Night, a really wonderful program that Bobak started. And we’ll have Bobak to talk about this and the importance of that in astronomy as well. That’s got a long, interesting story.
But we could talk about that for a whole session’s worth. And maybe we’ll do that, John. I want to go back to here now.
I wanted to show that this is your latest book, clearly taken on another planet. So this is really astonishing. It’s just great.
But this is the cover of your latest book, of which there have been quite a few. I believe we have the URL there where people can see your work, the books you’ve created under the wonderful Southern Milky Way, which we’re all very jealous of that you have that there’s no question about it. It’s just better.
We can see it, but not like you can see it. Tell us about this image, first of all, and also what you’re doing with your books here, your ideas.
[John Goldsmith]
Thank you, Mike. Yes. So this is the latest book release that I’ve authored and produced, Visions of the Cosmos, Landscape Astrophotography from Western Australia.
It’s a record of astrophotos of amazing landscapes throughout Western Australia. Wolf Creek Meteorite Crater, the Pinnacles, Wave Rock, and many other locations. In developing this concept, this idea, I collaborated with nine of Western Australia’s best astrophotographers, landscape astrophotographers.
So this is a collaboration, and we’ve worked together to bring together an amazing selection of images featuring mainly the wilderness landscapes of Western Australia, the dark sky locations. This is one of the reasons that has compelled me to produce a book like this. Actually, I’m very, very fortunate to live in this part of the world because we have access to dark skies.
If you look at the global scene right now, more than half of the world’s population now live in cities, and they don’t have regular access to the dark sky, to the true night sky. So we here in Western Australia, we’re very fortunate that we can drive a few hours out of Perth, and we’ve got really nice, good dark skies. And the view is stunning.
To see the Milky Way, to see the true Milky Way in its true glory on a dark sky is magnificent. And I fully appreciate that for people who live in cities and for people who never get out of cities, they’ve lost touch of that grandeur of nature. They’ve literally lost touch because they’re not experiencing that.
So this is one of the motivations behind astrophotographers. We go out and record these locations and astronomical events, and then we use these images in various ways. Exhibitions, book productions, online, in film productions, and so on.
And so the latest way of expressing this is via the book, and I’ve got a copy of the book here.
[Mike Simmons]
You know, we’ve seen lots and lots of astro images, but there’s nothing really from what I’ve seen of it, because I haven’t visited you there yet, John, but I have to. Like Western Australia, I mean, the landscape as well as the spectacular sky and the dark skies you have. So the next time we meet someplace in the world, John, I’m going to grab one of those from you.
[John Goldsmith]
Oh, wonderful.
[Mike Simmons]
I’ve got to get a hold of that. That’s fantastic.
[John Goldsmith]
And of course, Mike, remember, whenever you’re traveling in this part of the world, you are very welcome to come to Western Australia. So please remember that.
[Mike Simmons]
You know, most people don’t travel across the continent. It may be called an island, you know, but it’s really big, but I’m going to make a point of that because I’ve got to see this area. I want to thank you, John, for spending this time with us and show us something about the astrophotography there and how you use that to connect people with the sky they’ve lost touch with and to share with everyone the beauty and the importance of the night sky and Western Australia, because I’m convinced. So I’m getting over there.
So thank you very much for taking the time with us.
[John Goldsmith]
Wonderful, Mike. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Thank you.
[Mike Simmons]
This has been another episode of Big Impact Astronomy. I’m your host, Mike Simmons. Jacob Sager is our technical producer.
Our audio engineer is Ali Pelfrey. Big Impact Astronomy is produced by Astronomy for Equity, bringing astronomy to unserved communities worldwide. This episode of Big Impact Astronomy was brought to you by Primalucha Labs.
Primalucha Labs makes space exploration accessible for all and empowers communities worldwide through innovative educational astronomy solutions. Learn more about Astronomy for Equity, including how you can support us at astro4equity.org. You are listening to the 365 Days of Astronomy podcast.
Cool.
End of podcast:
365 Days of Astronomy
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The 365 Days of Astronomy Podcast is produced by Planetary Science Institute. Audio post production by me, Richard Drumm, project management by Avivah Yamani, and hosting donated by libsyn.com. This content is released under a creative commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International license. Please share what you love but don’t sell what’s free.
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