Podcaster: Mike Simmons; Guest: Jörg Matthias Determann
Title: Big Impact Astrononomy: Diversity, Equity, and Science Fiction with Jörg Matthias Determann
Organization: Astronomy for Equity
Link : https://astro4equity.org/big-impact-astronomy-podcast/
Description: Science fiction as a tool for inclusivity: Jörg explores how science fiction inspires broad audiences, bridging gaps between elite sciences and marginalized groups.
Jörg Matthias Determann discusses his role as a historian of science, with a focus on biology, astronomy, and astrobiology, emphasizing diversity, equity, and inclusion within astronomy.
He highlights the universal appeal of astronomy and how it connects all cultures under the same sky, while acknowledging barriers in elite academic circles.
Big Impact Astronomy: Through the Telescope is a video podcast that highlights the remarkable work of astronomy enthusiasts worldwide. Hosted by Mike Simmons, this podcast showcases how astronomy is used to improve lives in schools, refugee camps, hospitals, and more. Each episode features dedicated volunteers who introduce STEM in developing countries, inspire girls to pursue science careers, and bring hope to communities in crisis. Join us as we explore the stories of these unsung heroes making a difference through the wonders of the cosmos.
Bio: Mike Simmons is the founder of Astronomy for Equity ( https://bmsis.org/astro4equity/ ). Others on the team, including people around the world in astronomy and space exploration, authors and philosophers, designers and artists and more will be added as the website is developed.
Mike founded Astronomers Without Borders in 2006 to unite astronomy and space enthusiasts around the world through their common interests. During the UN-declared International Year of Astronomy 2009, Mike led the effort to organize the Cornerstone Project 100 Hours of Astronomy in more than 100 countries, with an estimated one million people looking through outreach telescopes in one night.
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Show Notes:
- 🎙️ Introduction to Jörg Matthias Determann Mike introduces Jörg Matthias Determann and his wide range of experience across different cultures and sciences.
- 🧬 Astrobiology and Diversity Jörg shares his journey as a historian of science, especially his work on astrobiology and its connections to inclusivity and otherness.
- 👽 The Search for Alien Life Jörg discusses the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe, touching on astrobiology and its growing potential with new technology.
- 📚 DEI in Astronomy: A History A deep dive into Jörg’s book on diversity, equity, and inclusion in astronomy, exploring its historical context and significance today.
- 🌌 The Universal Appeal of Astronomy Jörg highlights how astronomy brings people together by connecting them under the same stars, regardless of cultural or social background.
- 🤖 Teaching Science Through Science Fiction Jörg talks about his new project: using science fiction to teach scientific concepts and inspire broader, more inclusive engagement.
- 📚 How to Access the Book Mike and Jörg discuss how listeners can access “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Astronomy: A Modern History.”
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Mike Simmons: Welcome to the podcast. I’m Mike Simmons, the founder of Astronomy for Equity. Uh, today we have Yorg Mattias Derman, and he, uh, uh, Mattias, which he goes by, is a faculty member in liberal arts and sciences program at Virginia Commonwealth University. At the campus in Qatar, in the Persian Gulf. And, uh, he’s an associate editor of the review of Middle East studies and is the, uh, book review editor of the journal of Arabian studies.
Uh, he’s previously been in a number of different institutes, both in his native, uh, Germany and Austria, as well as in the UK, in Saudi Arabia, and in And, uh, other countries. He’s been around quite a bit. Now, he is the author of six books, and the one of particular interest to me here is this one, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Astronomy, which I have the great honor to be in, uh, having been interviewed by Matthias, uh, his current book project is a history Of teaching science with science fiction, which is a fascinating one too, that we’ll talk about.
So I’m very pleased to have Matias with us on the podcast. Welcome Matias. Thanks for joining us.
[00:01:28] Jörg Matthias Determann: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a great honor.
[00:01:32] Mike Simmons: Well, so you have been, let’s talk about you a little bit. You, you have done this work in astronomy and, and other things, science with science fiction and so on.
You have a really varied background that I find, find really interesting. Your name is a German, Austrian, Germanic anyway. Um, but you have been in many different countries. And have a particular interest in Islamic culture and science and so on. So tell us a little bit about your background and how you come to have this wide variety of, uh, experience in some places.
[00:02:17] Jörg Matthias Determann: Thank you so much, uh, Mike. I’m a historian. I’m a historian of science, uh, who is especially interested in biology and astronomy. Uh, and the combination of these fields, uh, in astrobiology, for instance, which is an area astrobiology that, uh, has a lot of connections with science fiction, with imaginations of alien life.
I have often, uh, been interested in the other, uh, in part because I myself was often the other. That was, so, I was born in Germany, but I lived in other countries most of my life in Austria in the United Kingdom and Saudi Arabia. And for over 10 years now in, uh, uh, in Qatar. And I’ve always been interested in other cultures.
Uh, so I learned Arabic. I, Uh, study to the Islamic religion, uh, and, uh, most recently, I’ve also been very, very interested in the ultimate other for humanity, uh, that is possible aliens, uh, civilizations, uh, and, uh, because I’ve been interested in the other, I’ve also been fascinated with questions of diversity, pluralism, how to, how to deal ethically with the other, uh, how to overcome barriers, how to overcome discrimination, uh, and so on, uh, leading me among other things to my work on diversity, equity, and inclusion in astronomy.
[00:04:09] Mike Simmons: That, that’s fascinating. Of course, it gets right to exactly what we’re talking about with Astronomy for Equity, where the whole goal and a goal of this podcast to bring out the work that people are doing around the world in using astronomy for the benefit of the other, the benefit of everyone, inclusion, uh, Whether people are disabled in some way, uh, excluded, marginalized in some way, uh, culturally, geographically, politically, and all of these things, so that’s great.
So, and of course the ultimate other, uh, is beings from elsewhere, which we have yet to find, but will happen, I think. What’s your view on that? Is there, are we definitely going to find, I mean, I don’t think anybody would question whether or not there has to be intelligent life somewhere else. Some would say there, we hope to find intelligent life someplace because we don’t find it on earth, but you know, we don’t need to, to, to do that.
But, uh, what are your views on, on discovering life elsewhere?
[00:05:23] Jörg Matthias Determann: That’s a really good question. So, uh, first of all, I’m. quite convinced that there is life elsewhere in the universe, uh, in part because, uh, it looks like the universe might be infinite, or it looks at least infinite pretty much in all directions that we can look.
And, uh, if something is infinite, Uh, then we’re probably able to find something within that, uh, infinity. Uh, so it is a very, very exciting time for astronomy and for all of humanity, of course, uh, with new instruments coming online, like the James Webb Space Telescope, uh, with us having discovered over 5, 000 planets outside of our solar system, uh, and with us.
Finding out more and more about in particular the icy moons of our solar system where we have water worlds where we have oceans under the ice and Certainly if we look at Liquid water on earth pretty much wherever we have liquid water. There’s life uh sort of Raising the prospects that maybe in these icy Water worlds elsewhere in our solar system, there might be life as well.
So yeah, like many, many people, I’m very enthusiastic about the astronomical research that’s going on at the moment.
[00:06:57] Mike Simmons: I agree. It’s, it’s a very exciting time. Um, But let’s get back to, let’s bring ourselves back down to earth here. And, uh, I want to talk about, uh, and we’ll bring this up again, the, your book on diversity, equity, inclusion, and astronomy, which I have here as well.
A modern history is absolutely. Fascinating book full of, uh, it’s really a concise history. And I have to say, I know so many of the people that you interviewed in this, as well as myself, I I’m honored and delighted to be a part of this as well. My. Contributions seem minor by comparison with some of the true heroes that you talk about there, but, uh, it, it’s a real history that, uh, where I learned quite a bit about some of the people that I’ve known for a long time and, and their backgrounds that I hadn’t even realized.
So what, what drew you to this topic in the first place? I know you’re interested in that, but this. I mean, it seems so obvious in retrospect that this is something that’s really needed and I hope we’ll get around quite a bit. Uh, everybody in astronomy should read this, but what, what got you into this in the first place?
[00:08:20] Jörg Matthias Determann: Thank you so much. Um, so I’ve been fascinated, um, Uh, by questions of diversity, uh, like by living in different countries, countries that are all diverse in their own ways. Uh, so I’ve lived, I had the privilege of living in cities, uh, like, Munich, like Vienna, like London, like Riyadh, the capital of Saudi Arabia, and now Doha, the capital of Qatar.
There are all incredibly diverse. Qatar, for instance, has, well, 90 percent of the population being foreign. Uh, so they’re only 10 percent of the population in Qatar being Qataris and 90 percent of foreigners all from all over the world, uh, sort of, you know, Reflecting a great plurality. Diversity is also something that I encountered by working at an American university, Virginia Commonwealth University.
Uh, and in higher education, especially higher education, diversity, equity, and inclusion have become very important concepts, ideas, also buzzwords at times. Uh, and yet, uh, What people understand by diversity, how diversity could look like, how it could be managed, uh, might, might be very different from context to context, uh, from institution to institution.
Uh, what I’ve also been very, very interested in is the history of, uh, The movement behind those words. Uh, so sometimes when people think about diversity, equity and inclusion in higher education, they might think about a D. E. I. Office, uh, at a university, they might think about bureaucracy and papers and maybe, uh, annual reports that show picture of people in with with Different, uh, skin colors and genders and identities.
Uh, but, uh, what I was interested in, like, finding out how did this movement start? How did we get here? Uh, so, uh, we’ve perhaps always had Astronomers from very, very different identities. Astronomy is, of course, one of the oldest sciences. Uh, people from every culture have always looked up at the stars.
People from every gender, from every identity group that you can imagine, have always wondered about the universe. Uh, and yet, At some point in the 20th century, all these people coalesced into a movement that pushed and put forward these ideas of justice, of inclusion, of equity, of diversity, of access.
People who’ve been trying to move. Academic astronomy out of the ivory tower. Uh, people who have tried to make astronomy, academic, professional astronomy, less of an elite. Uh, discipline, but less of an exclusive endeavor and more of an inclusive endeavor that, uh, brings people not just from the elites, but also from various Marginalized identity groups of all kind into this exciting field.
[00:12:10] Mike Simmons: So I so agree with you, Matthias, this, this is really important and it’s interesting that astronomy, I always say, is the most accessible, the most universal of all the sciences and still we have. Uh, this idea of it being an elite science in some places or somehow, uh, women may be discouraged as, as in, uh, sciences in general.
So it, it seems really ironic that we would have any of these issues in astronomy. Now you touched on one thing that, um, that really. Um, uh, hits home for me having lived in all these different, uh, cities with the great diversity, you know, when I started traveling internationally at first, I was really kind of amazed when I found things that were the same in another culture as what I was used to after a while, I realized they’re just kind of different flavors of the same things.
And now I’m really astonished when I find anything that seems like a really true difference. between us. It seems to me that we’re just different varieties of the same needs, the same ideas, the same cultures, like having different food, but we all have food. Um, is that something you find yourself? You have so much experience in, in different cultures.
[00:13:42] Jörg Matthias Determann: Absolutely. And I think astronomy is a beautiful discipline that can emphasize our common humanity. Uh, so astronomy. Teaches us that we’re all living under the same sky, uh, but that we’re all looking up to the, uh, to the same stars and the same planets. Uh, but that, uh, Venus might have different names in different languages and cultures, uh, but it is of great importance to people around the world, uh, similar Mars.
The sun, the moon, uh, and yeah, like astronomy can teach us that we are ultimately all together on this journey through space, that Earth is like our spaceship. Uh, and that Whatever problems and divisions we have between us humans, uh, problems and barriers and political conflicts between countries and nations, uh, and different groups, all of these barriers can seem, um, Just very, very small problems, uh, compared to the infinite size, uh, of the universe.
[00:15:07] Mike Simmons: Yeah, very well put, and I couldn’t agree more. Uh, in fact, uh, of course, Carl Sagan and his famous pale blue dot say this extremely well. Uh, legendary words. And also, uh, talking to astronauts. I’ve learned that, uh, it isn’t that they look down and don’t see borders. In fact, there are some borders you can see like India, Pakistan is all lit up.
You can see it very clearly. It’s that you see the earth in space. As that pale blue dot that they see it up closer unless they’re they’ve gone to the moon, uh, surrounded by stars right down to the edge of the atmosphere, which is paper thin when you look at it from outside. So what strikes them is, is exactly what you just described is that we are all on this one little planet amongst all the other planets.
And we’re just quibbling between, it’s just a family issues that we’re having, but we’re all part of that same family. So I, I want to talk a little bit more, uh, in particular, I’m going to bring this book up again because I want everybody in astronomy to get this. I think this is really important and I’m not even going to wait until the end.
Mathias, tell us how people can get this book.
[00:16:39] Jörg Matthias Determann: Um, thank you so much. Uh, so the book is published by Springer, uh, which is a major, uh, academic publisher that distributes its books globally. Uh, you can get it directly, uh, from the Springer website in a variety of formats. Uh, you can also get it from the major online retailers of books and from your local bookstore as well.
The hardcover edition is quite interesting. Uh, expensive. Uh, so I fully understand if you might not be able to afford that one, in which case I would suggest you recommend it to your local public library, uh, for purchase. So that may be a copy becomes available for free to your community. Uh, and hopefully a more affordable paperback edition, uh, will be out, uh, maybe in a year’s time or so.
Uh, uh, so hopefully, um, making the work, uh, as accessible as possible.
[00:17:50] Mike Simmons: Yeah. Is there any chance of an electronic version coming up?
[00:17:54] Jörg Matthias Determann: Yeah. Uh, the, uh, the book is available, uh, electronically. Uh, so, uh, you can either purchase an electronic copy yourself, or, uh, you can, uh, again, also suggest one, uh, to your local library.
So, uh, so spring up, uh, I think probably distributes most of its research publications electronically.
[00:18:25] Mike Simmons: So, uh, and we’ll bring that up again. Maybe, uh, we’ll add a link, uh, to the, um. Uh, the page where the podcast is, uh, published. So people will be able to get it there. I know that it’s Springer. It’s an academic publication.
These are the books that you see at academic conferences and things like this. Uh, not bestsellers on Amazon, but I think this one is just really important. Um, not just for learning about the past, but how we got here and for the future. So diversity, equity, and inclusion in astronomy. Now we use astronomy for so many different things.
And as I said, astronomy for equity, that’s the basis of it, where we are trying to highlight on this podcast, all the people that use astronomy for really good things that people don’t know about and encourage and support programs that use astronomy to bring, um, Uh, science and STEM in general to marginalized communities.
And that’s very important, but, uh, the issue of diversity, equity, and inclusion, this is. Comes about because of the harm that is done by, uh, issues with this. So I wonder if you can give some examples of how otherwise really good programs might be hurt by this. Um, how does it. know how it affects research in general, how, um, uh, if we’re excluding women or people of color, we, we just have few people who can contribute to the field.
But, um, what about in, in other ways that, uh, impact the programs that would be doing good outside of the academic community, for example, do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:20:24] Jörg Matthias Determann: so much. Uh, so. Astronomy is really a wonderful field that contributes so much to humanity and that excites so many people, young and old, people from around the world.
However, it is also a field that at times has been marked by elitism. So astronomy in modern times is very close to physics. Transcription Uh, and physics, especially in the 20th century, uh, for instance, became, uh, associated with Secrecy at times, militarism with programs to develop weapons, uh, nuclear weapons or other kinds of military systems, uh, including radar, uh, out of which radio astronomy came.
Uh, physics itself is often seen as a very elite science, a very exclusive, uh, science and, uh, at the top levels, not Not a very inclusive. So if you think about, um, noble prize winners in physics, Uh, you have a few, uh, women, uh, obviously in that, on that list of Nobel Prize winners in physics, uh, most famously Marie Curie.
Uh, uh, you have people from outside the West, of course, as, uh, as physics Nobel laureates. Uh, uh, that list is still very dominated by white people. man by white men. Uh, so astronomy being not so distant from, uh, physics is shaped by this, uh, to a certain extent, uh, uh, exclusivism, uh, uh, elite science status.
Uh, now why is elitism or why is exclusivity harmful? Well, uh, astronomy. Uh, is a science that, uh, relies, uh, to such a great extent on collaboration, maybe more so than many other sciences. We can’t study all the stars from just one point on Earth continuously, right? Uh, we have a northern sky, we have a southern sky.
Uh, if we want to understand both halves of the sky, we need to have observatories in the north collaborating with observatories in the south. The Earth, of course, is turning, and Days and nights follow one another, uh, when it becomes day in one place, uh, the astronomers there, unless they’re solar, uh, or lunar astronomers, they would have to stop observing the stars as it becomes bright.
Uh, but that means somebody else has to pick up and, uh, follow those. Uh, those stars, uh, in order to study them continuously in order to, for instance, look for small dips in brightness, uh, that might reveal transits of exoplanets in front of those, uh, stars, a big astronomical Missions, uh, can’t just rely on one country, uh, on one nation.
They can’t rely on, let’s say military secrecy either. Uh, if you think about, uh, the James Webb space telescope that has collaborators, not just from NASA, from the national aeronautics and space administration, but also from the. Uh, European space agency from, uh, the Canadian and, uh, Japanese space agencies.
Um, so these big, very, very expensive, uh, telescopes rely on collaboration across borders. Uh, I also said that, uh, the universe is perhaps infinitely big. And if you want to study something that is infinitely big with infinitely many objects, you have to get all the minds at work that you can get. Uh, if you exclude certain groups, certain minds, uh, but that means you don’t have enough minds to study all the fascinating objects that are above us.
Uh, all the, Black holes and active galactic nuclei and the thousands of exoplanets that we’ve discovered so far and maybe the billions and billions of more exoplanets that might be out there. So we just have to get as many people involved wherever they are in the world and whatever I don’t dear. Uh, identities they might have in order to, uh, have enough resources to deal with the enormity of the cosmos.
[00:25:43] Mike Simmons: Yeah, that, that’s wonderful. Uh, great comments. Very well laid out in the book, which I’m now going to require everyone to read for homework. Um, I think everybody involved in our organization should read it. And now I want to come out of the ivory tower in academia to the broader landscape of astronomy.
So while I did study astronomy in college as an undergraduate, I went into other areas of research, but I’ve been involved in public outreach for more than 50 years. And so this is really my arena and that’s where I find people interested in and doing astronomy everywhere. This is, it’s not an exception.
I mean, I have introduced people in a country who said they’re the only amateur astronomers in the country to other people that I knew because, you know, I act as sort of a hub for, for these having connections in different places. That they really are everywhere. The interest is everywhere. And I, I’ve also been to places.
Where they’re doing outreach in astronomy, they don’t have a telescope. That’s one of the things we try to help with. So this fascination, this idea of sharing is huge. Now, when I first got involved in astronomy, it really was. academic. It was about science and people who were interested on their own were completely separate.
One of the changes that I’ve seen in astronomy over the years, and this started in Europe as far as what I saw, was, uh, scientists, people with PhDs, graduate students, Or, or younger who were studying the science of astronomy, but who were interested in doing outreach and sharing with the public and many of whom have gone after their PhD ended up going into science communication, uh, public outreach programs, uh, Formal education, many things like that.
And this has been a really big change. And now the, the academic community works with the amateur astronomers around the world as well, uh, which is necessary in some ways with citizen science. So public outreach is completely diverse, but it’s kind of scattered. And this is one of the things I do to try and bring it all together.
You don’t really make a distinction in the book between these two areas, that this is really something that we’re all interested in. We all have a different area. What are your thoughts in terms of DEI in education, in outreach, in, uh, astronomy as a, a hobby and, and so on? Do you, you have some thoughts on that?
[00:28:50] Jörg Matthias Determann: Thank you so much. Uh, so I mentioned earlier that Parts of professional astronomy are very close to physics, uh, and thereby also very close to these, um, elite, uh, spheres of, uh, physics that were at times marked by military secrecy, Cold War, uh, competition. Uh, and that proximity at times benefited. Uh, astrophysicists, right?
Uh, so if you’re working on, uh, military related project, uh, but that means you, uh, you have money coming in, uh, without needing to do outreach. Uh, so that was the situation at times during the cold war, where there was just so much money being spent on defense research, on physics research that, uh, That astronomers, astrophysicists could benefit from the largest, some of the largest of, uh, the Pentagon, uh, for their own research, uh, that situation of the Cold War ended during the 1990s, when suddenly, you know, Billions of dollars, uh, were no longer given, uh, were no longer given away freely, uh, for physics and physicists and astronomers had to convince a larger public, uh, that their science should be not just for, uh, defense purposes.
Uh, so ever since the 1990s, uh, when for instance, physicists were surprised by the cancellation of the superconducting super collider, uh, in the United States, when physicists were. We’re shocked that big instrument projects could be cut where physicists realized that maybe government support was no longer, uh, as readily available as during the cold war could no longer be taken for granted.
Uh, then, uh, many, many physicists, astrophysicists, uh, started. Putting more effort into public outreach, into public education, in order to convince, uh, the, uh, convince taxpayers that spending money on science, uh, is worthwhile. Now, in parallel to these, uh, elite professional scientists that were close to the military industrial complex, uh, but There always existed amateur astronomers, going back perhaps to the beginnings of astronomy itself, right?
Uh, as, uh, astronomy has this incredibly large and proud and venerable amateur tradition. Uh, and amateurs are really crucial, uh, for reaching the public because they themselves are part of the public. Um, amateur astronomers are also more free, um, to reach across borders. Uh, so For instance, if you have, uh, uh, an astrophysicist employed by a federal agency in the United States or employed by a government organization in general, uh, with that government employment comes certain constraints, uh, and these constraints might be about.
For instance, uh, like who to interact with, who not to interact with. So to give you an example, uh, in the current, uh, political climate, for instance, uh, that is marked by tensions between, let’s say the United States, China, Russia, government employed, uh, scientists in any of these countries might find it hard to reach out to their peers.
Uh, counterparts, uh, so let’s say federally employed professional NASA scientist might find it hard to travel to China, uh, and, uh, to share knowledge, uh, with his Chinese colleagues. Counterparts. Similarly, let’s say a government employed Russian scientist might find it hard to travel to the United States, uh, amateur history, amateur astronomers don’t have those, uh, uh, constraints.
So you. Uh, amateur astronomist can just travel as tourists, uh, to whatever country gives them, uh, an entry visa. And, uh, amateur astronomists can build these grassroots contacts. Uh, so I, for instance, hugely admired, uh, your, our, your own outreach to astronomers, uh, in Iran and uh, in Iraq Cross. Uh, political divides and, uh, uh, and you could, uh, like meet people and interact with people and collaborate with people, uh, that maybe many professional astronomers, uh, in the United States, uh, didn’t, uh, didn’t feel that they could do.
Uh, so, yeah, uh, like, especially, uh, uh, in a world marked by a lot of divisions, uh, political and otherwise, amateur astronomers are in a unique position to reach across those divides.
[00:35:10] Mike Simmons: Yeah, what, what very well put and, and thank you for bringing up my own experiences too, which I think are good examples of what you’re talking about.
Uh, my international, um, work began in the 1990s, 99 actually, after traveling to Iran for a total solar eclipse and connecting Americans and Iranians and writing about it and so on. But I know there are two examples. I can give you one who is a high level. Employee of a NASA, uh, supported agency who was Iranian and wanted to go home.
And he, he wasn’t able to now Iranians ordinarily travel back and forth, uh, quite freely, but he wasn’t able to, I know somebody else who was a free former, uh, Department of Defense, uh, employee and, and no longer connected with him. And he wasn’t able to go either for other purposes. So you’re right that we can make those connections, which is the basis for, of course, what astronomy for equity is doing now.
Um, so not having those restrictions. is a really big help. I’ve run into a lot of them. Um, and I manage a sneak under the radar in a few places as well that I won’t really go into now. So, um, what do you see for the future? Now? Um, first of all, uh, two things. One, you’re working in another project that I want to talk about to.
But what about the future of DEI in astronomy? Things have improved, but there’s always pushback as well, which makes things very much more difficult. And we’re seeing that, especially in the United States, in some areas. From your extensive work, talking with people. Um, working in this area, what does the future hold?
Are we doing more of the same? Do you think there are some, uh, actions or something that we’re going to see that, uh, would be groundbreaking, or it’s just pushing one step at a time?
[00:37:29] Jörg Matthias Determann: Thank you so much. Um, so in the 20th and 21st century, astronomers and activists have led the way. A revolution, a scientific revolution, a revolution not so dissimilar from other kinds of revolutions in science, like the Copernican revolution, the revolution named after Nicolaus Copernicus, the revolution that put the sun rather than the earth at the center of our cosmos.
Um, now with. The DEI, the diversity, equity, and inclusion of the, with the DEI revolution, the diversity, equity, and inclusion revolution, words like diversity, like inclusion, like access. And open access, uh, have become at the center of the scientific, uh, discipline. Uh, and now, uh, as a result of this revolution, uh, we, uh, nowadays, for instance, largely take, uh, for granted that open access is a good thing.
Uh, we nowadays have so many women in leadership roles, many women in more women in leadership roles in astronomy than perhaps, uh, at any time before, uh, in history. Uh, so the demographic makeup, the social makeup of, uh, the astronomical profession has transformed. Uh, maybe we’re still lagging behind somewhat in terms of Nobel prize winners demographics.
Uh, so I mentioned earlier that Nobel prize winners in physics. Uh, overall, uh, we’re and are still largely white men, but I have no doubt that that demographic will change as well. Uh, this revolution has achieved a lot, but it is still, uh, unfinished. It is still ongoing. Uh, and of course, uh, revo revolutionaries, also encounter resistance.
Otherwise you would not need revolutionaries. There’s always pushback. Uh, if revolutionaries, if activists are trying to, uh, to break down barriers and overcome barriers, uh, usually these barriers are still uphold, uh, By, uh, by some, uh, so most recently, for instance, in the United States, DEI, uh, ha efforts have become under attack of conservatives.
Uh, there has been pushback, uh, programs have been defunded or rolled back or, uh, become more controversial. Uh, what will. Uh, but the future holds, uh, but there are some dangers, uh, there, uh, there are some dangers that DEI efforts, uh, will not be able to overcome, uh, some of the divisions that we have in larger society, uh, that, for instance, uh, like people from one group are threatened by DEI efforts from another group.
So you might have men Uh, being threatened by feminists, uh, or you might have, for instance, uh, people from majority society feeling threatened by activists, uh, campaigning for minority rights groups. Uh, so, uh, but you have at times feeling of threat, feeling, uh, feelings of fragility, divisions. Uh, my hope for the future is that There will be more solidarity, uh, that DEI activists, uh, just like they’ve done in the past as well, are uniting across the different identity groups that they represent.
Uh, my hope is that just like in the past, uh, people who advance women see themselves as allies of, uh, of people who advance the rights of disabled people. Disability activists, uh, see themselves as allies of people who are trying to advance Indigenous rights. That Indigenous activists are seeing themselves as allies, uh, to other people.
that are fighting for marginalized, uh, identities, marginalized group. And I also hope that those who are currently in the majority, those who are currently in power, um, see that if we have inclusion, if we have access for everybody, um, that this would indeed. Benefit everybody, uh, that, uh, diversity, equity, inclusion is not about a zero sum game of that having more women does not necessarily mean having fewer men, uh, having more black people.
People in, uh, but let’s say it’s leadership me, uh, role doesn’t necessarily mean, uh, fewer people of other, uh, ethnic and racial groups. Uh, but I hope that, uh, people will see that, uh, diversity, equity and inclusion can, can uplift everybody, right? There is no limited number of spots. For those who can study the universe, right?
The universe is perhaps infinite. There is literally space for everyone. Uh, so, um, yeah, I hope those who might currently feel threatened by DEI efforts see that. Oh, uh, like an activist who’s campaigning for justice, equity and inclusion is not trying to take anybody’s place necessarily, but instead it’s just adding to the number of creative minds that currently, uh, uh, that currently work on the universe.
And of course, uh, the universe is so full of mystery, so full of, uh, incredible problems. Problems that really stretch the image of the human imagination. If we really want to understand the nature of, let’s say, black holes, however, we need every human mind that we can get young and old people of all, uh, skin colors, gender identities, ability, and disability.
Uh, and so my hope for the future is that VEI efforts can be marked by unity rather than by division and by solidarity.
[00:44:59] Mike Simmons: Fabulous. Yeah, absolutely. It’s, we don’t know where the next Stephen Hawking will come from. It may well be a woman in Uganda who was born 20 years ago and, and we need to give everybody a chance because so few.
Have these remarkable breakthroughs and insights that we need to sample from everywhere. Yeah,
[00:45:28] Jörg Matthias Determann: absolutely. Yeah. And the beautiful thing about a lot of astronomy nowadays is, uh, you don’t necessarily need to have an expensive telescope in Uganda. For instance, to do astronomical research, uh, the, uh, robotic spacecraft and remotely controlled telescopes like the James Webb, James Webb Space Telescope, uh, produce enormous amounts of data, uh, almost like infinite amounts of data, uh, and this data is increasingly accessible, uh, by people everywhere, uh, Uh, as long as they have a computer and an internet connection.
Um, so if you are that gifted woman in Uganda and you have an internet connection, uh, and you have a computer and you have the right education and you’ve benefited from outreach programs, um, you can put your mind and your computer and that internet connection To use at almost any problem and any calculation that the data by the James Webb Telescope, Space Telescope allows.
[00:46:47] Mike Simmons: Yeah, and you mentioned remotely controlled telescopes. There are some made available for education as well, not nearly enough, but we are a global sky partner of Las Cumbres Observatory and had a, a, a short program last summer, where we were We had, um, STEM students, not necessarily astronomy students because it’s, you know, they had few laboratories and have great interest in it, um, in, in, in the university in Benghazi, Libya, who, uh, took part and, uh, learned how to construct, uh, the light curve for the supernova and M101.
Which is an experience they wouldn’t have otherwise. So there are a lot of ways to do this working on, uh, as much as we can of that sort of thing, because I find brilliant people everywhere. I call them diamonds in the rough. They haven’t been polished yet or nobody has seen them yet, but they are there and, and available to do so much work.
Um, you mentioned something else. That struck me about this as being a revolution and your description of the revolution reminded me of a book that was written 62 years ago, but I know you’re very familiar with the structure of scientific revolutions by Thomas Kuhn. A critical, uh, book that I only learned about recently and read for the first time, it’s timeless.
Um, but it, it, it. It is like any sort of revolution, uh, as well. And you also mentioned something else that really strikes me, which is the, the siloing of people looking at their individual causes. We need more collaboration and it’s understandable to focus on what you’re doing, but. But working together is really the key to, uh, having more impact.
And that, that’s honestly, I didn’t even think of this still this moment, but this podcast, this is what it’s about. We have so many people, hundreds of people, thousands around the world, around the world doing great work using astronomy and people don’t know about them. So the idea here is to give everybody a voice.
Um, quickly to your, there, there is also a matter of diversity in branching out into other areas such as art and science. Um, and one of those is your new project, which is, uh, teaching science through science fiction. This is fantastic as a science fiction fan since I was a very young, uh, science fiction is something where we can let our imaginations go and explore all kinds of things that we may not be able to do yet.
In the real world, including diversity, equity, and inclusion, such as the original series of Star Trek, uh, that brought, uh, a Russian in during the Cold War under the bridge and a black woman, uh, uh, groundbreaking things. So tell us a little bit about what your, your ideas with this new project.
[00:50:04] Jörg Matthias Determann: Thank you so much.
You’re absolutely right that, uh, science fiction itself is also revolutionary. You mentioned Star Trek, where, for instance, the first interracial Kiss on mainstream American, uh, television happened. Uh, and the future portrayed by, uh, Star Trek was often utopian and, uh, ahead of its time, right? Star Trek had, uh, well, the, uh, the first female officer.
Uh, on like a major, uh, Starship at a time when, uh, women were still largely excluded from most militaries around the world. Uh, Star Trek also, uh, had for instance, uh, uh, a black captain, uh, captain commander first, and then captain Cisco and Star Trek, uh, Voyager then had a female captain, Catherine Janeway and Star Trek Voyager.
Uh, Sorry, uh, uh, I should say, uh, Captain Cisco was in Star Trek, Deep Space Nine, of course, uh, as all the trackies, you know, so, uh, so Star Trek is one of many science fiction creations that is incredibly revolutionary and that is appealing to. broader audiences, including people from, uh, all kinds of marginalized groups.
I’ve been interested in, uh, the history of teaching science with, uh, science fiction most recently. And I’m again interested in exploring the tensions between, for instance, astronomy and astrophysics, on the one hand, as an elite science, as an exclusive science, and on the other hand, its potential to be much broader and having much more public appeal.
Uh, so, Science fiction really inspires people from almost any group, uh, people from all kinds of identity groups love stories about the universe, love stories about, uh, the stars, love stories about nature, and yet science fiction and fantasy have not always been considered serious literature. Um, they’ve not always been considered.
Respectable. Uh, they have been often denounced as too popular, uh, in many ways. And yet, uh, innovative educators from around the world. Uh, found science fiction a very, very useful teaching tool, a very useful tool for inspiring, uh, people who would not otherwise go into, uh, professional science. Uh, so, uh, one of the founders of the modern field of science fiction, uh, Hugo Gernsback, for instance, uh, saw his, uh, Uh, magazine wonder stories as educational and advertised as educational.
Uh, one of the titles of that magazine was science wonder stories. And interestingly, Because it had this educational appeal, uh, people like Isaac Asimov were allowed by their parents to read, uh, the science fiction magazines when they were young. Uh, so, uh, science fiction, uh, Still at times had to struggle for respectability.
So the science, modern science fiction as a mass phenomenon started with the pulp magazines. Uh, and of course, pulp magazines, pulp fiction, uh, were often, was often looked down upon by the elite circles of science. And yet, time and again, uh, we find scientists who, uh, who were attracted to science fiction, who were themselves inspired by science fiction, and used it as a teaching tool.
Uh, so, I’m interested in, uh, Educators, writers who have tried to bridge the two cultures, the culture of art and the culture of science. I’m interested in figures such as Lawrence Krauss, for instance, who wrote a very, very popular book in the 1990s called The Physics of Star Trek, a book that gave rise to a whole Uh, cottage industry of, uh, books with the science off in the title.
So the science of the X Files, the science of star Wars, the science of Harry Potter, uh, the science of superheroes, the science of X Files. And true, uh, when you’re still, uh, probably enrolling in an astronomy program or, uh, in an astrophysics program, maybe you still don’t have necessarily the book, The Physics of Star Trek by Lawrence Krauss as a textbook.
Uh, so yes, uh, science fiction is still somewhat kept out, uh, elite science and elite science education. Uh, but time and again, people have tried to bridge, uh, the, the area of the sci fi conventions and the area of the, uh, the halls of academic science, uh, of elite universities, I’m still at the beginning of this project.
Uh, so if you are an astronomer who has taught. astronomy using science fiction, I would love to hear from you wherever you are in the world. I’ve certainly come across, for instance, many people in the Arab world who have proposed to teach science through science fiction, and I believe that Probably these people who are trying to bridge science and art, these two cultures, bring science and science fiction together exist in every country.
So please share your experiences with me.
[00:57:14] Mike Simmons: Oh, that’s great. And, uh, we’ll do our best to let people know about that too. Uh, I, this, I’m looking forward to that. We, this has been a very rich conversation and, um, We may have to have you back to talk about that as well. There, you’re a new book and once again, first, I, I want to thank you very much.
Let me once again, tout your book on diversity, equity, and inclusion in astronomy and modern history. Cassandra has presented. Mattias graciously provided the link so people can, uh, get it here, pause it, write it down, and we’ll put it on the page as well. So I want to thank you, uh, so much, uh, Mattias for, for joining us here for this.
There’s so much to, uh, think about in all of this and, uh, best of luck with your, your new project, which I anxiously am looking forward to. And, uh, for the future.
[00:58:24] Jörg Matthias Determann: Thank you so much. Big thanks to you and to Cassandra as well in the background. Uh, and all the best for your organization and for all your incredible initiatives.
Uh, yeah, you are one of the true heroes of, uh, of my book and one of the true heroes I feel of, uh, the book. DI efforts in astronomy globally. Thank you for all you do.
[00:58:52] Mike Simmons: Thank you so much. There are so many heroes talked about in there. I’m I feel a minor part, but I very much appreciate your comments.
End of podcast:
365 Days of Astronomy
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The 365 Days of Astronomy Podcast is produced by Planetary Science Institute. Audio post production by me, Richard Drumm, project management by Avivah Yamani, and hosting donated by libsyn.com. This content is released under a creative commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International license. Please share what you love but don’t sell what’s free.
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