could complex non-technological life develop spacefaring capabilities?

[traceur]

could the natural evolutionary process alone (in whatever form it may take) can lead to complex (multi-cellular) space-faring organisms without the intelligence/capacity to do so artificially, in terms of both survivability and some form of propulsion?

if so, what adaptations and what may be the enabling conditions & evolutionary pressures leading towards them?

[Paul Beardsley]

An interesting question. I can imagine evolution leading to a creature that leaves its planet's atmosphere, but where would it head?

Of course, given that planets generally refuse to conform to our expectations (whatever happened to the oceans and steamy jungles of Venus?) there may be worlds where the set-up is so radically different to what we'd imagine that space-faring animals might be commonplace.

We need to get out there.

[iquestor]

could the natural evolutionary process alone (in whatever form it may take) can lead to complex (multi-cellular) space-faring organisms without the intelligence/capacity to do so artificially, in terms of both survivability and some form of propulsion?

if so, what adaptations and what may be the enabling conditions & evolutionary pressures leading towards them?

We dont really know whats possible and the Universe is large beyond imagining, so I cant say "no, its not possible."

However, I doubt it. For my answer, I'm assuming we are talking about carbon-based animal life, and not some disembodied consciousness. I am also assuming that members of the species would reach and wander space with enough regularity as to not be a fluke or anomaly; True space farers can do it more than once, and not by accident. They have to go there, and thrive, or at least survive til they get somewhere else where they can live. Or, they don't count as space farers.

Gravity would seem to be the big problem, getting out into space. Animal life as we know it (and can reasonable pontificate on without resorting to ultra-extreme fantasy) most likely requires oxygen, which in turn requires a gravity well and a long stable time for evolution. These things depend on gravity. Gravity is what holds an atmosphere to a planet, and would allow microbes and its descendants to evolve to a metazoic state. When in this state, the animal would have to leave the gravity well of its home planet without the aid of an artifical device, on demand, and survive the experience. Doubtful.

The next issue would be surviving direct exposure to space. While some earth creatures (water bears, bacteria, etc) can survive direct exposure, the OP seems to assume complex life, and these examples arent complex. Complex life, like humans or raccoons or even tapeworms evolve for a given set of conditions on Earth, and as a result, are much more fragile. The more fragile we are, the less likely it is that we could survive direct exposure to space. Therefore, it seems very unlikly that a complex animal could evolve on a planet for a set of specific conditions, yet still survive the vacuum of space. There just no evolutionary pressure to make this a survival trait.

The next issue is -- motivation. Life generally expands because there is a need fo rmore resources. Life evolves in places where there are resources within reach. If the resources go away, the life dies or goes dormant. In space, the resources are very, very, very far away, and rare compared to the vastness of space. An organism that waqs spacefaring would need to have some compelling motivation to leave the gravity well, go to space, and somehow thrive there. If they go to space and die, well, that isn't a space fairing species. That's -- space lemmings !

However, if I were to imagine such a race, I'd put forward that the space faring creatures would have to rely on some other creature to get into space, and still others to allow for life in space and the ability to thrive, assumably by navigating to other bodies with resources. I remember reading a book by Arther C Clark about giant living sticks that rotated in a planet's atmosphere -- one in in spaqce, the othere just brushing the ground in places. Residents knew when they were close to the ground, and hopped aboard via a giant seedpod that grew together to provide shielding , and were flung into orbit. Trees were grown to be spacecraft. Life was abundant in space, had evolved in space. Cant remember the name of that particular tome, though.

One line of reasoning that would lead to such a creature would be to imagine the conditions on a planet that would mimic the extremities of space in terms of temperature and lack of atmosphere, and evolution pressures to give the organism the ability to go into a dormant mode that would consequently allow it to survive for long periods of time in space. Add in that they evolve on a planet in an area where they are regularly blown into space, go dormant, and wait to be picked up by a gravity well of another planet.

[IsaacKuo]

One line of reasoning that would lead to such a creature would be to imagine the conditions on a planet that would mimic the extremities of space in terms of temperature and lack of atmosphere, and evolution pressures to give the organism the ability to go into a dormant mode that would consequently allow it to survive for long periods of time in space. Add in that they evolve on a planet in an area where they are regularly blown into space, go dormant, and wait to be picked up by a gravity well of another planet.

Or maybe not even a planet. If we consider icy moons and comet-like bodies, we see that they have a lot of water, methane, and ammonia. These could be perfect resources for "life as we know it", given the right circumstances. If life evolved in an environment like Saturn's ring system, then there would be a lot of incentive to send "spores" into open space, and little cost involved (practically no gravity well on your typical ring body).

The big question is the source of power. There would not be much solar power; sunlight would melt these icy bodies. But there could be a lot of electromagnetic power available if the host planet's magnetic field were tilted on its side like Neptune's.

So, we might have a planet similar to Neptune but with a Saturn-like ring system. This planet also has some heavy moons like Jupiter. Life initially evolves in the liquid water subsurface ocean of one of the heavy moons--the water is heated by tidal forces with the other moons. This life evolves electromagnetic power rather than photosynthesis; this provides sufficient heat to allow shelled "plants" to maintain liquid water within their shells.

These creatures grow throughout the moon's icy crust, ultimately populating the outer surface where the electromagnetic waves are the strongest. At this point, random surface impacts might transport these life forms to the ring system. If one of those life forms propogates itself using "spores", then these "spores" could be expelled with sufficient force to propogate throughout the ring system.

Fanciful? Yes. It might be possible.

[PMette]

We are all making the assumption that the life form had to have originated from a planet or comet or other celestial body. What if the life form (I am assuming non carbon based) evolved in the vacuum of space and therefore space is its habitat ergo space faring creature?

[iquestor]

We are all making the assumption that the life form had to have originated from a planet or comet or other celestial body. What if the life form (I am assuming non carbon based) evolved in the vacuum of space and therefore space is its habitat ergo space faring creature?

But ... that's cheating! or at least, it gets by all the really hard stuff. I hope it smacks good and hard into a good ol' terrestrial type planet.

[PMette]

But ... that's cheating! or at least, it gets by all the really hard stuff. I hope it smacks good and hard into a good ol' terrestrial type planet.

Cheating ha ha but answers if its possible quite simply.

[IsaacKuo]

Depending on your definition of "simply". How does it work? Does it even use chemistry? If so, then how does the chemistry work?

Life as we know it requires liquid water, which is already complex to figure out. More radical life might use liquid methane or liquid ammonia instead...but it's hard to conceive of practical biological chemistry systems that don't use liquid at all. And here's the rub--liquids can't exist in the zero pressure vacuum of space.

That's why I went through all of that song and dance to start with a natural liquid environment and then to evolve "shells" which allow for maintaining the pressure required for liquid water.

Your "simple" solution begs a lot of "complex" questions. Not that these aren't interesting questions, but they sure aren't easy or simple.

[iquestor]

Depending on your definition of "simply". How does it work? Does it even use chemistry? If so, then how does the chemistry work?

Life as we know it requires liquid water, which is already complex to figure out. More radical life might use liquid methane or liquid ammonia instead...but it's hard to conceive of practical biological chemistry systems that don't use liquid at all. And here's the rub--liquids can't exist in the zero pressure vacuum of space.

That's why I went through all of that song and dance to start with a natural liquid environment and then to evolve "shells" which allow for maintaining the pressure required for liquid water.

You "simple" solution begs a lot of "complex" questions. Not that these aren't interesting questions, but they sure aren't easy or simple.

My take on the OP suggests that the life is complex, ie animals. animals need a planet, an atmosphere, pressure, gravity, and time to evolve. these wont evolve to be able to handle the vacuum or cold or lack of resources of space, as as you say, liquids dont remain liquid is space.

[marsbug]

Reminds me of this article on dusty plasma life.

In a young solar system consisting of objects like ceres and smaller, kept warm by the decay of short lived radioactive materials to give subsurface water, life forms might have both the opportunity and reason to develop spacefaring traits; no one object would be safe from a devastating impact, but even smaller impacts could spread spore impregnated material to other planetoids. So they might evolve to take advantage of impacts to spread themselves as an insurance policy.

But first you were thinking of life forms that travelled under their own power, and second that scenario would make it very difficult for life to start or evolve very far (so no complex, multicellular life).

It might happen through natural means in an artificial environment: For example a large group of clustered space habitats (zoos?) left to their own devices might evolve some thick skinned animal that could make a trip of a few minutes to the next habitat along. Is that also a cheat?

EDIT: sorry for the stream of consciousness posting there- I objected to my own answer!

[PMette]

My take on the OP suggests that the life is complex, ie animals. animals need a planet, an atmosphere, pressure, gravity, and time to evolve. these wont evolve to be able to handle the vacuum or cold or lack of resources of space, as as you say, liquids dont remain liquid is space.

You are probably correct on the intent of OP. I was doubtful that a complex carboned based "liquid requiring" species could make it in space so I was "simply" coming up with a "complex" option. In theory, crystal based lifeforms would not require water.

[iquestor]

You are probably correct on the intent of OP. I was doubtful that a complex carboned based "liquid requiring" species could make it in space so I was "simply" coming up with a "complex" option. In theory, crystal based lifeforms would not require water.

yes, however crystal based lifeforms would likely shatter when they move.

perhaps the lifeform needs liquid but it goes into a dormant mode, like some earth bacteria do in the absence of water.

[traceur]

It might happen through natural means in an artificial environment: For example a large group of clustered space habitats (zoos?) left to their own devices might evolve some thick skinned animal that could make a trip of a few minutes to the next habitat along. Is that also a cheat?!

well does it have to be?

i mean, is there any natural process that isn't lethal on its own right and could erode (and eventually remove) a lplanets atmosphere slow enough for life to adapt to it? ofcourse that wouldn't adapt it to leave the planet but survivability would be a good start...

as for oxygen, we can form a symbiotic closed oxygen cycle, and remember that the fiona/flora specialization is just something that happened here on earth and doesn't necessarily have to happen elsewhere.
even if specialized plants do exist on that planet, then having to adapt to unlock C02 from rock deposits and somehow access (and melt) there own ice for water would pretty much force them to either be mobile or be symbiotic with something that is mobile.

Or maybe not even a planet. If we consider icy moons and comet-like bodies, we see that they have a lot of water, methane, and ammonia. These could be perfect resources for "life as we know it", given the right circumstances. If life evolved in an environment like Saturn's ring system, then there would be a lot of incentive to send "spores" into open space, and little cost involved (practically no gravity well on your typical ring body).

The big question is the source of power. There would not be much solar power; sunlight would melt these icy bodies. But there could be a lot of electromagnetic power available if the host planet's magnetic field were tilted on its side like Neptune's.

So, we might have a planet similar to Neptune but with a Saturn-like ring system. This planet also has some heavy moons like Jupiter. Life initially evolves in the liquid water subsurface ocean of one of the heavy moons--the water is heated by tidal forces with the other moons. This life evolves electromagnetic power rather than photosynthesis; this provides sufficient heat to allow shelled "plants" to maintain liquid water within their shells.

These creatures grow throughout the moon's icy crust, ultimately populating the outer surface where the electromagnetic waves are the strongest. At this point, random surface impacts might transport these life forms to the ring system. If one of those life forms propogates itself using "spores", then these "spores" could be expelled with sufficient force to propogate throughout the ring system.

Fanciful? Yes. It might be possible.

nice

you know i heard the concept of magnetic waves for energy source before form theories about Europa.. but does anyone know how you could electromagnetic energy in chemical form using organic molecules?
any extremeophiles on earth do that? any chemical reaction we know about that might do that?

[Ronald Brak]

When children are born on Electrotopia their parents immediately stretch them until they are a quarter of a wavelength long. If the unfortunate child happens to break during this process they are put in a microwave oven until they recover.

[Chuck]

Maybe life could start underground on a planet with thin air and high mountain peaks. Then life could slowly evolve to tolerate ever thinner air and higher temperature variations as it climbed the mountains. Then when an asteroid impact sent some of them into space and some landed on a nearby moon with even thinner air, maybe some of the mountain dwellers would survive the trip since they're used to nearly no air anyway. If the moon had the same chemical composition as the home world, maybe they could survive there. They'd still be using sunlight to convert minerals to life, just like they did back home.

[PMette]

When children are born on Electrotopia their parents immediately stretch them until they are a quarter of a wavelength long. If the unfortunate child happens to break during this process they are put in a microwave oven until they recover.

What??? Did I miss a post or something to warrant this response?

[PMette]

yes, however crystal based lifeforms would likely shatter when they move.

perhaps the lifeform needs liquid but it goes into a dormant mode, like some earth bacteria do in the absence of water.

Not necessarily. Even if a section of a crystal colony broke off from its originating source I am not sure that that crystal based life form could not still thrive or propagate. From what we know of crystals on earth this is still possible. Maybe the crystal based life form started on a planet which was destroyed , or had some cataclysmic event (super volcano or what not) that jettisoned large pieces of the planet into space which contained these crystalline life forms which are still alive based on their definition of "life".

[iquestor]

Not necessarily. Even if a section of a crystal colony broke off from its originating source I am not sure that that crystal based life form could not still thrive or propagate. From what we know of crystals on earth this is still possible. Maybe the crystal based life form started on a planet which was destroyed , or had some cataclysmic event (super volcano or what not) that jettisoned large pieces of the planet into space which contained these crystalline life forms which are still alive based on their definition of "life".

are they then spacefaring? No. They just happen to live on a rock that was ejected into space. By spacefaring, I think the OP assumes they have some method to get to space regularly, rather than a single event.

[PMette]

are they then spacefaring? No. They just happen to live on a rock that was ejected into space. By spacefaring, I think the OP assumes they have some method to get to space regularly, rather than a single event.

Semantics. Just because I started as a terrestrial based creature doesn’t disqualify me from being space faring now. If the above event occurred 2 billion years ago and the crystal based life form adapted trough time within its new habitat to navigate within space (drawn by light, sound, gravity whatever its purpose to grow or move) I think it would qualify as space faring.

[iquestor]

Semantics. Just because I started as a terrestrial based creature doesn’t disqualify me from being space faring now. If the above event occurred 2 billion years ago and the crystal based life form adapted trough time within its new habitat to navigate within space (drawn by light, sound, gravity whatever its purpose to grow or move) I think it would qualify as space faring.

fair enough. your post seemed to lock them in at the point where they were still clinging to hurtled rocks.

[Chuck]

Their light powered, mineral fed biological processes could produce a gas as a byproduct that they could store in a bladder and use to propel themselves to other rocks.

[Bynaus]

I could think about some form of complex planet-like organisms originating on a Mars-like world in an Earth-like orbit. As long as the planet still has a thick atmosphere (slowly loosing it to solar wind and hydrodynamic escape grinding), complex life could develop. But with the proceeding loss of atmosphere, this life could adapt, develop a metabolism oriented toward closed-system cycling (e.g., internal atmospheres, and extracting all needed nutrients from the soil). This kind of life could procreate by lightweight spores that are hurled/shot over great distances on parabolic flight paths, finally reaching orbit and escape velocity (chances of this happening are of course improved by a small planet with a low escape velocity - same is true for spores liberated by asteroid impacts). The spores could then "infect" neighbouring planets and, most importantly, asteroids. Once the asteroid-habitat is conquered, this kind of space-based life could live on, mutate and adapt for billennias.

[PMette]

fair enough. your post seemed to lock them in at the point where they were still clinging to hurtled rocks.

I have a problem with being vague sometimes. I am trying to work on that lol

[IsaacKuo]

What are "crystal based lifeforms", and how would they "work"? I can guess what you mean by it, but I'm not sure if my guesses match up to what you're thinking of.

[swampyankee]

.. but does anyone know how you could electromagnetic energy in chemical form using organic molecules?
any extremeophiles on earth do that? any chemical reaction we know about that might do that?

In answer to the second question: Photosynthesis
In answer to the first: chlorophyll, in its various incarnations. iirc, there has also been an fungus discovered which uses gamma rays, but does not use chlorophyll.

[clint]

I read about speculations that there might be a chance of microbial life floating in Venus' atmosphere.
If a Venus-like planet hosts a diverse ecosystem in the upper layers of its atmosphere,
there might be a chance that space-resistant fauna could evolve from that.

At first, they might start hopping into space for short periods during evasive maneuvers
(like flying fish that escape their ocean predators by lifting into the air)

[showboat]

A very good speculation as to if such could happen happen.
But I thing Jupiter could be the gas planet with gas medussaie.

Floating jellyfish.

The mitochondria is a multicell evergy converter as long as there glucose and protein and sunlight. But is not the primary outlook or standard but the Quantum cell layer which for the mitochondia cell is the oldest to consider.

Quantum physics.

Anywhy theres no way of either use or any life can function on a different planet as the various biological field such a magnetic or any else would be to differrent.

Cancer I think would be the result might be a problem as a mars astronault.

[Ronald Brak]

What??? Did I miss a post or something to warrant this response?

Sorry, just very very bad physics based joke based on IsaacKuo's wicked cool scenario.

[traceur]

hypothethical organic "singularity": the predation point:
i've being thinking about the evolution of life...
and it seems probable that over time:

1) more chemical structures would find a place as tissues or components
2) as the diversity of life grows more chemical exchanges in the ecology will be filled via an organic form fit for the role
3) the "average" structural biochemistry (albeit most likely with extremes rather then any individual species being similar to the average) would match the ratio of chemicals in the planets.

as a result, an ecology sustained for a long enough period of time would trap its entire environments mater within organic tissues.

at such a point there is no such thing as "bottom of the food chain", nothing is growing "directly from the land" & every chemical exchange is direct - either symbiotic or predatory.
i.e. there might be a symbiotic relationship between fungus that replaced the role of mud and between trees, or it might involve some predatory "trap" relationship, perhaps directly through "predatory plants" or perhaps through another symbiotic relationship - perhaps insect hives within the tree deliver the fungus - but there is no direct nutrition for plants in the ground, any carcases or droppings are eaten by the fungus.
eventually the same can be said about atmospheric compounds - as more oxygen & CO2 gets trapped in organic form - life would have to adapt to decreasing atmospheric pressures and to get the CO2/O2 directly.
and the same applies for water...

such a system would dramatically increase the dependency between species and thus the total ecological vulnerability to mutations. whenever such happens symbiotic relationships gets cut off, and the ones that will survive are those that get entangle to the point of mutual insurance - meaning that the reproduction of one species entails the reproduction of the species its dependent upon as a package.

at that point, every species or symbiotic package of species essentially becomes either mutually independent/self-sustained, or predatory.

given the adaption to decreasing atmospheric pressure, and given the gradual relocation of the planetary mass to organic forms, wouldn't the mutually independent groups of species - the closed systems - have both the conditions to escape the planet & the evolutionary pressure to avoid the predators?

[Chip]

On our own world, I have heard of spiders that create long filaments, catch thermals and eventually float to very high altitudes. Their extreme high altitude ballooning has been studied by M. H. Greenstone, Oecologia Jounal, Volume 84, Number 2 / September, 1990

From this one could speculate that a high altitude alien exoskeletal creature could evolve to the point where it is able to liberate itself from the upper atmosphere of its planet but there would have to be a bunch of evolutionary steps and likely a biological reason for it to originally do that. If the planet had a rocky ring and a nearby moon with a better food source on it, (alien) nature might eventually find a way for creatures to migrate from the planet to the moon and an eventual evolutionary dividend might be an off-shoot life form that could also exist for longer periods in space.

Back on Earth, there are jumping spiders that don’t live below 22,000 feet and exist on Mount Makalu in Nepal. (They are the highest known full-time land dwellers.) Studied by Zoologist John Edwards - University of Washington. The Makalu Jumping Spiders don't fly higher however and oddly have no "obvious adaptations for life under such rigorous conditions," according to F.R. Wanless, British Museum.

Ruppell's Griffon is a vulture with a 10 foot wingspan and has been reported as high as 37,900 feet. (Higher than Everest.) - Audubonmagazine.org/birds/birds0011.html

The Human race has used machines to fly higher and with machines have reached their moon, for now. Us humans have controlled machines further out in the solar system and may eventually evolve into machines to survive in space.