Ancient Advanced Civilizations........

[vision-master]

I'll start with The Temple of Jupiter.

The Temple of Jupiter is located in Baalbek.

There are three megalithic stones in one wall that weight over 1,000 tons, they are called the Trilithon. We are incapable of moving these megalithic stones into place today!



Comments?

[Swift]

Do you have evidence that they actually weigh 1000 tons? Dimensions, type of rock and its density, and a calucated weight would be fine.

And what makes you think we couldn't move those pieces?

[vision-master]

Above the six blocks on the western side are three even larger stones, called the Trilithon, whose weight exceeds 1000 tons each. These great stones vary in size between sixty-three and sixty-five feet in length, with a height of fourteen feet six inches and a depth of twelve feet.

Ok, I guess we could move these now. My bad. Then my question is, how were these ancient stone age ppl able to cut and move these massive things. Your turn, prove to me how they did it.


With a lift capacity of 3,200 tonnes the CC8800-1 Twin claims to be the largest mobile crane in the world

[Daggerstab]

We are incapable of moving these megalithic stones into place today!

Perhaps you should have tried to find out if this is true before asserting it?

Wikipedia » Berlin Hauptbahnhof

The main concourse, supported by two towers, will provide roughly 44,000 m² of commercial space. Construction of the towers began in 2005. On two separate weekends, 29 July and 13 August 2005, structural frames were installed, supporting the structure above the east-west tracks. This was built using a new technique: the frames, each weighing 1250 t, were lowered by ropes at a rate of six m per hour; the remaining 20-mm gap between the bow frames upon completion of the lowering process was subsequently closed.

Note that the nature of the job required extraordinary precision, hence the slow rate of lowering.

I actually saw a documentary about this on the Discovery Channel a long time ago. The link is taken from an old discussion of the Baalbek temple in another forum I used to participate in.

And if this doesn't satisfy you, you can Google "1000 tons crane" and get some interesting results...

Edited to add: So, you actually did it... It took some time writing the above.

[Fazor]

And what makes you think we couldn't move those pieces?

This seems to disagree with the OP's statement in that regard, though I'm no expert in heavy construction.

ETA: Wow, I was too slow I guess.

[vision-master]

Perhaps you should have tried to find out if this is true before asserting it?

Wikipedia » Berlin Hauptbahnhof

Perhapes I'm not as perfect as you? Then again I admitted my mistake, so you zero in on this small detail? What is your problem? Am I under some kind of inquisition here?

Another thing, what does Berlin Hauptbahnhof have to do with the Temple of Jupiter. Help me with this. Answer my question, how did these ancients cut and move such massive stones? Not if we could do this today!

[captain swoop]

Chisels and rollers. why do they need anything else?
How do you think they were cut and moved?

[Swift]

vision-master,

I have decided to move this thread from BABBling to Against the Mainstream (ATM). It seems pretty clear to me that you are advocating a non-mainstream belief.

The ATM forum has some very specific rules, most particularly, that it is up to you to prove your ATM idea, not for the rest of us to disprove it. You can find the rules here (please particularly note rule 13) and some specific advice for ATM supporters here.

Since you did not volunteer to enter ATM, if you are not prepared to follow the ATM rules, I will not hold you to them, but I will close this thread. You can let the moderation team know what you want to do by Reporting this post (click the red triangle in the upper left corner and fill in what you would like to do or if you have arguments against moving this thread to ATM).

[coreybv]

Answer my question, how did these ancients cut and move such massive stones? Not if we could do this today!

You seem to be falling into the old trap: "Well, I can't figure it out, therefore it can't be done!"

The first thing you have to do is set aside your preconceptions about how to move heavy things. Today we have large cranes, powerful engines, hydraulic jacks, etc... We grow up knowing about these tools, so we are programmed to think of brute force solutions for moving heavy objects.

Brute force isn't the only way, though. Clever use of leverage can go a long way.

Most of us today, being accustomed to having the technology to do these things through brute force, would have a very difficult time coming up with the idea to lift a heavy object by stacking even more weight on top of it.

[Daggerstab]

Perhapes I'm not as perfect as you? Then again I admitted my mistake, so you zero in on this small detail? What is your problem? Am I under some kind of inquisition here?

It took some time to research and write that post. I didn't realize that you have corrected yourself. It seems that Fazor didn't notice it, too. No inquisition intended. I apologize.

[Fazor]

Brute force isn't the only way, though. Clever use of leverage can go a long way.

That's kinda what I was picturing; drag it off the end of an adequately shaped ramp and/or into an adequately shaped hole, and you should be able to use it's own weight to stand it upright. Though if you do it wrong that could be quite messy.

However they did it, it is an impressive feat. But who are we to say it wasn't possible, particularly when the evidence that it was possible is still standing today.

[vision-master]

vision-master,

I have decided to move this thread from BABBling to Against the Mainstream (ATM). It seems pretty clear to me that you are advocating a non-mainstream belief.

The ATM forum has some very specific rules, most particularly, that it is up to you to prove your ATM idea, not for the rest of us to disprove it. You can find the rules here (please particularly note rule 13) and some specific advice for ATM supporters here.

Since you did not volunteer to enter ATM, if you are not prepared to follow the ATM rules, I will not hold you to them, but I will close this thread. You can let the moderation team know what you want to do by Reporting this post (click the red triangle in the upper left corner and fill in what you would like to do or if you have arguments against moving this thread to ATM).

What idea do I need to prove? The Trilithon pre-dates both Greek and the Roman inheritors, they were unable to perform these 'magical feats' of their predecessors, pre Greek and Roman. What does this tell you oh great one?

[vision-master]

You seem to be falling into the old trap: "Well, I can't figure it out, therefore it can't be done!"

The first thing you have to do is set aside your preconceptions about how to move heavy things. Today we have large cranes, powerful engines, hydraulic jacks, etc... We grow up knowing about these tools, so we are programmed to think of brute force solutions for moving heavy objects.

Brute force isn't the only way, though. Clever use of leverage can go a long way.

Most of us today, being accustomed to having the technology to do these things through brute force, would have a very difficult time coming up with the idea to lift a heavy object by stacking even more weight on top of it.

This is totally incorrect, we are talking about weights of 2,000,000 lbs. Your theory is nothing more than modern day pseudo-science bunk.

[coreybv]

What idea do I need to prove? The Trilithon pre-dates both Greek and the Roman inheritors, they were unable to perform these 'magical feats' of their predecessors, pre Greek and Roman. What does this tell you oh great one?

I can't speak for Swift, but all it tells me is that their predecessors were more clever. (IF your assertion that the Greeks and Romans couldn't do it is true. I have my doubts that it is.)

[Sam5]

Brute force isn't the only way, though. Clever use of leverage can go a long way.

Most of us today, being accustomed to having the technology to do these things through brute force, would have a very difficult time coming up with the idea to lift a heavy object by stacking even more weight on top of it.

Here's an interesting set of videos from that same website, on page 3:

http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/newpage3

[vision-master]

vision-master,

I have decided to move this thread from BABBling to Against the Mainstream (ATM). It seems pretty clear to me that you are advocating a non-mainstream belief.

The ATM forum has some very specific rules, most particularly, that it is up to you to prove your ATM idea, not for the rest of us to disprove it. You can find the rules here (please particularly note rule 13) and some specific advice for ATM supporters here.

Since you did not volunteer to enter ATM, if you are not prepared to follow the ATM rules, I will not hold you to them, but I will close this thread. You can let the moderation team know what you want to do by Reporting this post (click the red triangle in the upper left corner and fill in what you would like to do or if you have arguments against moving this thread to ATM).

How does this go aganist rule 13? This thread was started in Off-Topic Babbling. I did not move it into a inappropriate category. The Mods did without my consent.

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People will attack your arguments with glee and fervor here; that's what science and scientists do. If you cannot handle that sort of attack, then maybe you need to rethink your theory, too. Remember: you came here. It's our job to attack new theories. Those that are strong will survive, and may become part of mainstream science.

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As with the other sections of the forum, we ask you to keep your topics about space and astronomy. We will close down any thread which doesn't have anything to do with space and astronomy immediately.

[coreybv]

This is totally incorrect, we are talking about weights of 2,000,000 lbs. Your theory is nothing more than modern day pseudo-science bunk.

How so?

So you're asserting that heavy objects do not obey simple laws of physics?

What, precisely, would prevent the methods demonstrated in my link from being scaled up for larger objects?

[Daggerstab]

The Trilithon pre-dates both Greek and the Roman inheritors, they were unable to perform these 'magical feats' of their predecessors, pre Greek and Roman. What does this tell you oh great one?

According to this, it appears that you are wrong and the temple is Roman:
http://www.ramtops.co.uk/baalbek.html

Anyway, don't the rules of the ATM section limit the topics to space/astronomy? This is a space exploration/astronomy board, after all. Not much archeologists here.

[vision-master]

I can't speak for Swift, but all it tells me is that their predecessors were more clever. (IF your assertion that the Greeks and Romans couldn't do it is true. I have my doubts that it is.)

Then why didn't they out do their predecessors? We don't know who made these huge stones and placed them into this wall. Some say it was from the time of Adam and Eve?

Here's a 1,200 ton stone.

[vision-master]

According to this, it appears that you are wrong and the temple is Roman:
http://www.ramtops.co.uk/baalbek.html

Anyway, don't the rules of the ATM section limit the topics to space/astronomy? This is a space exploration/astronomy board, after all. Not much archeologists here.

The Mods put this into an incorrect thread. I asked before hand if I could start this thread and was given permission.

Originally Posted by vision-master
Should I start another thread titled ' Advanced Ancient Civilizations of our Past' ?

If you want to discuss that topic, yes you should. This thread should only be for the discussion of 2012.

Not knowing exactly what you want to say about Advanced Ancient Civilizations, I'm not sure where on BAUT you should start that thread, but we can move it, if necessary, after the fact.

[coreybv]

Here's a 1,200 ton stone.

Showing me a picture of it just shows that it's big, not that it can't be moved or lifted.

[R.A.F.]

Anyway, don't the rules of the ATM section limit the topics to space/astronomy? This is a space exploration/astronomy board, after all. Not much archeologists here.

I "think" the idea is supposed to be that ancient alien astronauts built (or assisted in buliding) the structures in question...although all I've seen so far is just assertion, and no evidence.

So, vision-master...will you be providing evidence other than "I don't know how they did it"?....because that is simply not sufficient.

Also, so that we're on the "same page", could you explain precisely what it is you are claiming?

[captain swoop]

Why didn't they 'out do' who with what? If you look at the history of architecture you will see that as civilization becomes more esophisticated and technological there is a move away from big lumps of rock to smaller components used in a more complex way.

As this is now in the ATM forum it's up to you to tell us how you think it was done. Mainstream says it was with the simple tools and techniques that we know work and were available.

Tell us what asll this is leading to.

[vision-master]

Showing me a picture of it just shows that it's big, not that it can't be moved or lifted.

Why didn't they 'out do' who with what? If you look at the history of architecture you will see that as civilization becomes more esophisticated and technological there is a move away from big lumps of rock to smaller components used in a more complex way.

As this is now in the ATM forum it's up to you to tell us how you think it was done. Mainstream says it was with the simple tools and techniques that we know work and were available.

Tell us what asll this is leading to.

That you don't know what yer talking about.

I have some other mysteries.



From the earliest period of ancient Egyptian civilization.

At least one piece is so flawlessly turned that the entire bowl (about 9" in diameter, fully hollowed out including an undercut of the 3in opening in the top) balances perfectly (the top rests horizontally when the bowl is placed on a glass shelf) on a round tipped bottom no bigger than the size and shape of the tip of a hen's egg !


This requires that the entire bowl have a symmetrical wall thickness without any substantial error! (With a base area so tiny - less than .15 " sq - any asymmetry in a material as dense as granite would produce a lean in the balance of the finished piece.) This kind of skill will raise the eyebrows of any machinist. To produce such a piece in clay would be very impressive. In granite it is incredible.


Other pieces turned out of granite, porphory or basalt are fully hollowed with narrow undercut flared openings, and some even have long necks. Since we have yet to reproduce such pieces it is safe to say that the techniques or machinery they employed to produce these bowls has yet to be replicated.

[NorthernBoy]

Perhapes I'm not as perfect as you? Then again I admitted my mistake, so you zero in on this small detail?

Small detail? Your entire claim was that we could not move these today. It was false.

I think that the point to take away from this is that if you'll make assertions on such poor information, we should not rely on what you post in future. Is that a fair point, do you think?

[vision-master]

I "think" the idea is supposed to be that ancient alien astronauts built (or assisted in buliding) the structures in question...although all I've seen so far is just assertion, and no evidence.

So, vision-master...will you be providing evidence other than "I don't know how they did it"?....because that is simply not sufficient.

Also, so that we're on the "same page", could you explain precisely what it is you are claiming?

I am claiming some ancient cultures had much more technology than ppl today give them credit for. Sometimes beyond what we are able to achive today!

[captain swoop]

OK now in Mod Mode. In your next post tell us hwhat this is leading to. Are you making a claim? If you are then state it, if not I will close this thread.

[vision-master]

Small detail? Your entire claim was that we could not move these today. It was false.

I think that the point to take away from this is that if you'll make assertions on such poor information, we should not rely on what you post in future. Is that a fair point, do you think?

You are beating a dead horse!

[captain swoop]

I am claiming some ancient cultures had much more technology than ppl today give them credit for. Sometimes beyond what we are able to achive today!

OK now we know.
This falls outside the usual areas covered by Conspiracy and Against the Mainstream as defined in the BAUT rules. I am closing this thread pending further Mod clarification.