Perpetuum Mobile - Finsrud Machine

[Stroller]

OK, I'm sure perpetual motion machines come round every so often on Baut, and I'm not trying to start a serious discussion. Just wanted to share this one, as I love the mechanical Heath Robinson-ness of it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1716456&hl=en#

I have gleaned that the two hoops the steel ball rolls on are aluminium.

Sketches here:
http://www.galleri-finsrud.no/sider/...tegninger.html
Oh, and this page about it:
http://www.centronews.com/technology...body-cares-why
Which includes this intriguing link:
http://www.padrak.com/ine/FINSRUD1.html
Interview, very brief.
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/finsrud2.txt
And a longer account of a meeting here:
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/finsrud3.txt


Any speculation as to how it works?

Somehow harnessing Earth's rotation?

Something about magnets we didn't know before?

Hidden magnets in the base driven by clockwork?

[orionjim]

I think it’s probably running on electricity because of all the motion going on. If I were to build something like this to give the illusion of perpetual motion I would mount the big round bottom plate that looks like brass on something cam operated. Then mount the small round rods that run from this plate to the top and attach them somehow to the inner rail that would rise up about ¼ inch and drop back down this would probably give the ball enough oomph to make it around.

The funny thing is it looks like people are looking at the ball going around and ignoring the rest of the motion. It looks like a simple illusion to me.

Jim

[clop]

OK, I'm sure perpetual motion machines come round every so often on Baut, and I'm not trying to start a serious discussion. Just wanted to share this one, as I love the mechanical Heath Robinson-ness of it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1716456&hl=en#

I have gleaned that the two hoops the steel ball rolls on are aluminium.

Oh, and this page about it:
http://www.centronews.com/technology...body-cares-why
Which includes this intriguing link:
http://www.padrak.com/ine/FINSRUD1.html


Any speculation as to how it works?

Somehow harnessing Earth's rotation?

Something about magnets we didn't know before?

Hidden magnets in the base driven by clockwork?

I think it's being driven by a magnetic drive under one (or more) of the three long golden pendulums hanging down. In the late eighties early nineties you used to be able to buy those silver wire things that used a little magnet drive in the base to swing them back and forth. They don't show you the bottom of the pendulums much at all during the video clip (I wonder why) but if you look carefully at 29m30s you'll see that the pendulum at the back right hand side isn't swinging freely like the other two, it's swinging jerkily, almost like it's being driven from underneath. Think about it - why would the long pendulums need to be so close to the base anyway?! If you really wanted to make it look like free motion you'd have the weights way off the ground rather than almost touching.

clop

[mugaliens]

Any speculation as to how it works?

See the little mid-track wires at left and right which impart the forces from their varying position to the ball? That's what moves the ball.

The aparatus which connects to those two mid-track wires has two mechanical linkages to components unknown, below (and AMAZINGLY UNSHOWN!!!), which could simply be connected to a simple motor.

Somehow harnessing Earth's rotation?

Nope. See above.

Something about magnets we didn't know before?

Doubt it! See above.

Hidden magnets in the base driven by clockwork?

Aha! Even from the floor underneath! Very astute!

You win the kewpie doll, Stroller.

[Stroller]

the small round rods that run from this plate to the top...

It looks like a simple illusion to me.

Jim

Hi Jim, nice to hear from you.
The three pendula aren't attached to the base in any way I can see though. I agree with you that inducing a well timed slight tilt in the track is the most likely way it could be engineered to simulate perpetual motion. Wouldn't need to be as much as 1/4 inch. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ seems to be from a fixed camera, and you can see a slight moire shift in the under edge of the track as the ball circulates. No relative motion between the two tracks though. Whether this is due to the weight of the ball deflecting the aluminum track, or a light effect from the ball and glass, or a tilting mechanism I can't tell.

I think if it's an illusion it's very cleverly done.

I think it's being driven by a magnetic drive under one (or more) of the three long golden pendulums hanging down. In the late eighties early nineties you used to be able to buy those silver wire things that used a little magnet drive in the base to swing them back and forth.

The ones I saw didn't have any drive in the bottom, you could just reposition the magnets under the base to make the pendulum (which contained a repelling magnet) swing in different ways. Interestingly, Finsrud says it was an examination of one of those devices that led him to his incorporation of the chaotically moving overhead magnets which are part of the design.

They don't show you the bottom of the pendulums much at all during the video clip (I wonder why) but if you look carefully at 29m30s you'll see that the pendulum at the back right hand side isn't swinging freely like the other two, it's swinging jerkily, almost like it's being driven from underneath.

Ah, so you watched it for a long time too.
I wondered about that wobble too, but I also noticed the cross axis adjustment adjustable bob weights at the top of the pendula bearing mechanisms, so I guess the bearings have two degrees of freedom.

Think about it - why would the long pendulums need to be so close to the base anyway?! If you really wanted to make it look like free motion you'd have the weights way off the ground rather than almost touching.

clop

Good point, though I don't see how the pendula could impart much drive to the ball via the wires between the tracks, as they are near the end of their backswing when the ball rolls over the wire. It's a pity he didn't mount it on a see through plinth if there is no hidden mechanism.

See the little mid-track wires at left and right which impart the forces from their varying position to the ball? That's what moves the ball.

See my question to clop above. How would the mid track wires impart net impetus to the ball when the pendula they are attached to are near the end of their backswing?

The aparatus which connects to those two mid-track wires has two mechanical linkages to components unknown, below (and AMAZINGLY UNSHOWN!!!), which could simply be connected to a simple motor.

Ah, you need to watch longer, the pendulum mechanisms are quite clearly shown at the start of the video I linked in reply to Jim, and about 30 mins into the long video as noted by clop.

I love the 'music' it makes in the youtube vid. Very hypnotic.

[mugaliens]

How would the mid track wires impart net impetus to the ball when the pendula they are attached to are near the end of their backswing?

The slight of hand here has you believing they're responding to something, when in fact, they've been finely tuned to simply go "umpity" as the ball rolls around.

The pendula, I'm sure, took some tweaking, to synch with the circulation of the ball, but once done, that, and the nicely authenticating rick of the "vault" door, have most people convinced of this latest "perpetual motion" fraud.

My, God - how many thousands, if not millions of idiots have departed with their hard-earned dollars trying to get rich on this charlatan's schemes?

Ah, you need to watch longer..

No I don't, as it's scam 101, New Orleans style.

Geez, people, if you're that deparate to depart with your funds, I know some local kids who could really use some Christmas presents this year...

[Stroller]

The slight of hand here has you believing they're responding to something, when in fact, they've been finely tuned to simply go "umpity" as the ball rolls around.

Hang on a minute, you said it was the wires attached to the pendula which drove the ball in your previous post. You've changed your mind, fair enough, so what do you think drives the ball? And by the way, what in anything I've said makes you think I'm "believing" anything?

The pendula, I'm sure, took some tweaking, to synch with the circulation of the ball, but once done, that, and the nicely authenticating rick of the "vault" door, have most people convinced of this latest "perpetual motion" fraud.

It's not the latest, it's been running since 1996 with two stops for maintenance work.


I found this rather nice vid which takes a closer look and attempts to replicate the principle with another machine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q

There are permanent magnets in the base. This explains the wobble in the pendulums.

Finrud himself makes no claims and is not trying to commercialise anything beyond promoting his art gallery as far as I can see. I think Mugs' condemnation is over the top in this case. Although plenty of charlatans have made grandiose claims for magnetic motors and duped gullible investors, Finrud describes his machine as a kinetic sculpture, nothing more. If he is keeping a 'guilty secret' then perhaps it's because he has a sense of humour and delights in keeping people guessing.

Harmless fun in my opinion.

[Stroller]

"I think it is possible to utilize magnetism as an energy source. But we science idiots cannot do that, this has to come from outside."

-Werner Heisenberg-

Now it could be that Heisenberg was wrong about this. But he was a smart guy.

This is the best shot Finsrud has made at making a 'scientific explanation' of his machine. Now, bear in mind that was translated by a scandinavian whose first language is not english and make what you can of it. No doubt the phrase 'word salad' is about to be deployed anyway.

If we expand from a diallel - towards the centre array of magnets - and counter that force with the contraction or attraction of gravity driven magnets, then we can make a motor run given a cyclic setup and a vibrating feedback loop.

[Strange]

It's not the latest, it's been running since 1996 with two stops for maintenance work.

Changing the batteries, presumably.

I assume this is an art exhibit, rather than a serious attempt to build a perpetual motion machine.

[Stroller]

Changing the batteries, presumably.

I assume this is an art exhibit, rather than a serious attempt to build a perpetual motion machine.

Track cleaning and a refix of the resin the permanent magnets in the base are located with apparently.

I'm not sure there is a clear borderline between art and mechanical invention in this case.
He spent 12 years designing, building and refining it, in between working on other projects.

I gleaned that 14-days in a row is the longest it has run without stopping. -- Rita Børtveit, on behalf of Reidar Finsrud (April 2, 2008)

I've tracked down a report written by someone who took the trouble to go to Norway and visit Reidar Finsrud at his gallery.

http://web.archive.org/web/200304062...ud/finsrud.htm

Briefly, the ball is always rolling downhill because the arms which support the track are rigidly attached to a central chaos pendulum suspended from the central column tube. The chaos pendulum is kept in motion by the vibrations set up in the upper triangular array complexes. The three other pendula are regulators rather than power generators.

Whether the system is gaining the extra energy from the magnets and the ambient vibrations in the environment which prevent stasis, or whether he hid some externally powered motor in there is something I'll leave as an open question.

Without going there and tipping it over for a look we can't know.

[Stroller]

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo...rpetuum_Mobile
Finsrud's Explanation of the Energy Source

On April 2, 2008, Reidar Finsrud wrote:

OBS---maskinen er langt mer komplisert enn den ser ut til i første øyekast. Det øvre system er bla. helt avgjørende for maskinens funksjon. Disse bladfjærene overfører (stjeler) litt fra kulas bevegelsesenergi og denne energien brukes ti å senke banen ca 200 my noen mm foran kula. Energien overføres via bladfjærenes svingefrekvens. Hele maskinen "flyter" og er avhengig av at senterpendelen, de tre store pendlene, kulas hastighet, svingetallet på bladfjærene, og alt annet er i harmoni el. "samstemt" "kalibrert" i forhold til hverandre. Om grunnenergien (basisenergien) kan du lese her: http://www.keelynet.com/energy/finsrud.htm

English Translation (by Jan Klyve via Sepp Hasslberger)
NOTE: the machine is much more complicated than it appears at first sight. The upper part of the system is, among other things, absolutely decisive for the machine's function. These "blade springs" transfer (steal) a little of the ball's kinetic (motion-) energy and this energy is used to lower the track ca. 200 micrometers, just a bit ahead of the ball. The energy is transferred via the frequency of the blade springs. The entire machine "floats" and is dependent on the central pendulum, the three large pendula, the speed of the ball, the frequency of the blade springs and everything else being in harmony - or "tuned", "calibrated" in relation to each other. You can read about the fundamental (basic) energy here. http://www.keelynet.com/energy/finsrud.htm

[mugaliens]

Hang on a minute, you said it was the wires attached to the pendula which drove the ball in your previous post. You've changed your mind, fair enough, so what do you think drives the ball?

I watches the ten-minute video (nice music!)

Aha! It's the "vibratory mechanism, the one that, at 6:48 is referred to as a "vibrating feedback loop." What powers that?

Harmless fun in my opinion.

It's not "harmless" when perpetuating the fictional notion of perpetual motion results in an increase in charlatans who prey on the ignorant.

Caveat emptor, to be sure, but such predatory activity has a measurable effect on society, resulting in increased taxes to cover larger regulatory/oversight agencies.

[Stroller]

Aha! It's the "vibratory mechanism, the one that, at 6:48 is referred to as a "vibrating feedback loop." What powers that?

The ball's motion beneath the magnets on the spring steel blades.

We've established that it isn't a perpetual motion machine, but it does run successfully for 2 weeks at a time. So lets assume the man is honest, there is no hidden motor, and think about the way in which the energy put into the machine when it is set in motion is conserved and transmitted to various parts of the machine in order for it to minimize the usual limiting factors of friction, noise, vibration and heat losses etc.

One of these is the way it uses vibration as an asset rather than a loss. I think that's pretty clever myself, and the implications of the tuning for resonant harmonics are quite far reaching for our understanding of feedback loops and cyclic dynamics.

[Boratssister]

I saw something on youtube called magniwork, an australian has invented free energy, apparently . Www.magniwork.Co.uk

[publiusr]

http://www.bautforum.com/science-tec...al-motion.html

Barometer Clocks are as good as it gets.

Other concepts:
http://www.hp-gramatke.net/perpetuum...h/page0100.htm
http://www.longnow.org/clock/
http://blog.longnow.org/2008/08/20/v...g-term-backup/
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3424
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/05/ma...pagewanted=all
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.c...ing-press.html
http://www.rosettaproject.org/disk/concept/

[Stroller]

I'm a bit surprised by the seeming inability to differentiate between get rich quick schemes, thought experiments, and actual hard work by someone to produce something of real interest and merit.

Maybe it's just an engineer thing.

[mugaliens]

I'm a bit surprised by the seeming inability to differentiate between get rich quick schemes, thought experiments, and actual hard work by someone to produce something of real interest and merit.

Maybe it's just an engineer thing.

It's a physics thing.

One of these is the way it uses vibration as an asset rather than a loss. I think that's pretty clever myself, and the implications of the tuning for resonant harmonics are quite far reaching for our understanding of feedback loops and cyclic dynamics.

Each time energy of one form is either transferred between carriers, or is converted from one form into another, there is always a loss. That's entropy. There's never any gain - ever. This is why perpetual motion machines are impossible.

If there's one that's out there that looks like it, it's getting energy from somewhere: light, heat, air currents, sound, vibrations (not its own), etc.

[Stroller]

It's a physics thing.

Each time energy of one form is either transferred between carriers, or is converted from one form into another, there is always a loss. That's entropy. There's never any gain - ever. This is why perpetual motion machines are impossible.

I totally 100% agree with your statement, with the caveat that local neg-entropic efects are possible, and thanks for revisiting this thread. You'll see that a couple of posts ago I summarized by saying that this is not a perpetual motion machine, and that we should think about the way in which the energy put into the machine when it is set in motion is conserved and transmitted to various parts of the machine in order for it to minimize the usual limiting factors of friction, noise, vibration and heat losses etc.

If there's one that's out there that looks like it, it's getting energy from somewhere: light, heat, air currents, sound, vibrations (not its own), etc.

I'm fine with that too. So now we are in agreement, please collaborate with me in trying to understand how Finsrud has managed to make a machine which can keep a 2 pound steel ball rolling round an aluminium track for two weeks at a time following the input of a relatively small amount of initial energy.

I think it's worth the effort.

Let's approach under three main lines of attack, feel free to add more:

1) How much energy is required to make the ball roll round at almost constant velocity, taking into account frictional loss, energy converted into sound, heat etc?

2) Finsrud himself is convinced that the key aspect of the machines comparative success is the tuned resonant feedback of vibration from the moving parts of the machine to other moving parts of the machine, and that the chaotic motion of the main pendulum keeps this from dying away rapidly. How much do we really know about resonant feedback?

3) What environmental energy flows could the machine possibly tap into to help keep it going?

Heat, light, seismic vibration, sound waves, cars going past the gallery, diurnal variation in the geomagnetic field, changes in air pressure... please add more before we start discounting them.

Thanks again for coming back to play.

[eburacum45]

2) Finsrud himself is convinced that the key aspect of the machines comparative success is the tuned resonant feedback of vibration from the moving parts of the machine to other moving parts of the machine, and that the chaotic motion of the main pendulum keeps this from dying away rapidly.

That is what he says; however if the machine is fraudulent (which is entirely possible) then he probably knows exactly how it works and is not telling.

[mugaliens]

Thanks again for coming back to play.

Gladly!

Especially given the nature of your response.

I believe we can all have "fuzzy houses" which produce far more energy than we require, domiciles are built to exacting, passive energy + higlhly insulative standards, with excess energy fed to the grid for profit.

Bad on us for failing to do so!

[mugaliens]

That is what he says; however if the machine is fraudulent (which is entirely possible) then he probably knows exactly how it works and is not telling.

Anything longer than a couple of minutes is indicative.

Beyond that, entropy rules.

[Stroller]

I guess it's a natural human reaction to jump to the conclusion that there is some kind of trick being played when something we can't readily explain shows up, but lets assume the man is honest, there is no hidden motor, and think about the way in which the energy put into the machine when it is set in motion is conserved and transmitted to various parts of the machine in order for it to minimize the usual limiting factors of friction, noise, vibration and heat losses etc.

[mugaliens]

I guess it's a natural human reaction to jump to the conclusion that there is some kind of trick being played when something we can't readily explain shows up, but lets assume the man is honest, there is no hidden motor, and think about the way in which the energy put into the machine when it is set in motion is conserved and transmitted to various parts of the machine in order for it to minimize the usual limiting factors of friction, noise, vibration and heat losses etc.

We can assume all we want. Physics rules. Entropy exists. Perpetual motion does not.

[Strange]

I saw something on youtube called magniwork, an australian has invented free energy, apparently . Www.magniwork.Co.uk

Or, apparently not.
http://blog.mapawatt.com/2009/07/21/...l_motion_scam/

[Stroller]

THIS IS NOT A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE
NOR DOES IT'S CREATOR CLAIM IT IS

There are however some interesting things about it's construction and conceptual basis that I would like to discuss.

[mugaliens]

There are however some interesting things about it's construction and conceptual basis that I would like to discuss.

Stroller - what's to discuss? There's no open inspection allowed, no independant review. We just have the video, which doesn't show enough to explain how it works.

Besides - the guy keeps it locked in a vault, and that alone shuffles this into the 100 mpg carburator class.

Without any more data, we're just spinning our wheels, here, speculating on the basis of what little we do know.

But seriously - what would you like to discuss? I understand physics, so please, let's discuss something other than what's been discussed based on what little info we have.

Do you have any more info?