Life on a neutron star

[Bruceleeeowe]

Have you ever heard about life on neutron star. I've recently finished Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg in which he described life thriving on a neutron star could really it be possible?

[eburacum45]

This one is well outside any range of possibilities we know of. In order for life on a neutron star to be viable, some sort of self-replicating and persistent process would have to be possible in the extreme temperatures, gravity and magnetic field of such an object. As far as we know, none exist.

Perhaps some sort of fantastically advanced technology might be able to create artificial life-like processes that could exist in those conditions, however.

[eburacum45]

Something like this...
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/46709d53449d2

[nokton]

This one is well outside any range of possibilities we know of. In order for life on a neutron star to be viable, some sort of self-replicating and persistent process would have to be possible in the extreme temperatures, gravity and magnetic field of such an object. As far as we know, none exist.

Perhaps some sort of fantastically advanced technology might be able to create artificial life-like processes that could exist in those conditions, however.

We can find life on our planet in the most hostile of environments, the smokers in the
deep sea vents, the ice in the polar regions. But the lifeforms are primitive, and not
conducive to further evolution, as they have evolved to the limit of the requirements
of their eco system.
Nokton.

[Argos]

Arthur Clarke once imagined an intelligent planet, wherein electric currents across crystalline structures on the surface played a role analogous to our neural network.

However far-fetched this example can be, there still atoms and electric currents to support intelligence. To a neutron star thereīs only degenerate matter. Life [or intelligence] in such environment seems pretty impossible.

[trinitree88]

When tall people mistakenly try to save travel money, they end up on the starship to the neutron star Geminga. Even though their stay there is very brief, it squishes their bones (and brains) so that when they return to Earth, they are now very short people, and by Lamarkianism, will only produce short offspring with teensy weensy brains.

[Ilya]

I read "Dragon's Egg". My understanding is that neutrons in atomic nuclei exist in "shells" similar to atom's electron shells, and under conditions prevalent on neutron star's surface atomic nuclei can form "covalent bonds" via neutron interaction -- again, analogous to covalent bonds via electron interaction. IOW, "nuclear chemistry" comes into being. Whether such nuclear chemistry can produce complex self-replicating structures, is anyone's guess.

[tdvance]

Foreward was a physicist, so I assume that means he knew what he was talking about! Of course, it's still fiction so he made some things up.

[Argos]

Physicists can dream, canīt they?

[slang]

We can find life on our planet in the most hostile of environments, the smokers in the deep sea vents, the ice in the polar regions.

True. But neutron stars are quite a bit more challenging environments than Earth can provide. Our extremophiles would have quite a challenge keeping their molecules together.

But the lifeforms are primitive,

Define primitive. They have been subjected to the exact amount of years of evolution as we have.

and not conducive to further evolution, as they have evolved to the limit of the requirements of their eco system.

This is nonsense. There is no perfection in nature, there is always room for improvement.

[DrWho]

Have you ever heard about life on neutron star. I've recently finished Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg in which he described life thriving on a neutron star could really it be possible?

I've only heard about it in the context of science fiction. In addition to the book you cite, I'm also reminded of Stephen Baxter's FLUX. Here he creates a whole ecosystem within the neutron-superfluid mantle and explores its whole geography from 'crust' to core. The biology, locomotion and senses of the inhabitants are quite well worked out, but the book as a whole is somewhat of a mixed bag - both brilliant and flawed.

[Bruceleeeowe]

We can find life on our planet in the most hostile of environments, the smokers in the
deep sea vents, the ice in the polar regions. But the lifeforms are primitive, and not
conducive to further evolution, as they have evolved to the limit of the requirements
of their eco system.
Nokton.

environment and ecology(?) on a neutron star would be even more harsh than you have described. Normal molecules crushed under such extremely high gravity. You know neutron stars are second most densed objects of cosmos. Actually Forward described these creatures are formed via complex nuclear reactions. How? Is it really possible that nuclei started forming bonds rather than known fusion or fission reaction?

[Glom]

True. But neutron stars are quite a bit more challenging environments than Earth can provide. Our extremophiles would have quite a challenge keeping their molecules together.

Keeping their atoms intact more like it.

[Bruceleeeowe]

@glom:you are right environment on a neutron star will be more than harsh.

[Paul Beardsley]

I've only heard about it in the context of science fiction. In addition to the book you cite, I'm also reminded of Stephen Baxter's FLUX. Here he creates a whole ecosystem within the neutron-superfluid mantle and explores its whole geography from 'crust' to core. The biology, locomotion and senses of the inhabitants are quite well worked out, but the book as a whole is somewhat of a mixed bag - both brilliant and flawed.

I'd agree with your evaluation. I think the speculation is good, but the storytelling is very dull in places - he's done much better since.

I also preferred the short story Raft to the novel of the same name.

[Jason Magee]

I would say that, if we said that a neutron star averaged only 10 solar masses, an average man of 200 earth pounds would weigh what, 90,910 tons? He would instantly turn nearly to mush. To have life at this density, your neural network would have to be diamond or even neutronium (if there is such a thing) and would have little or no biological material to it. Just a scattered network of awareness(es) without the ability to move. Even a penny would weigh in at a hefty 30-40,000 pounds. You would have to be sustained by light energy since all material on the star would be too dense and packed to eat or much less digest. Imagine trying to eat sustenance harder that diamond....Personal thoughts: no actual evidence to back it up.

[IsaacKuo]

The structures involved do not need to be atomic in nature. Life could consist of self-organizing/replicating patterns of fluid motion, or pressure waves, or something like that.

Of course, we're accustomed to Earth's atmosphere and oceans, where such patterns are chaotic and don't last very long--but consider that Jupiter and Saturn have wind patterns which last a long time compared to what we're used to. Self sustaining and self-replicating fluid motion patterns may be possible.

[Procyan]

Nature usually has surprises up her sleeve. Was Forward's "neutron bio/chemistry" all speculation? We won't know until we go have a looksee. How far is the closest one? I wonder if it is possible for an as yet undetected neutron star to be near enough to us for a visit.

I'm reminded of Brare Rabbit's trajectory into the briar patch...as beings constructed of degenerate matter (from a Cheela's perspective, that is) we'd find a neutron star harsh going, but to the Cheela it is duck soup! With luck we'll learn more about the nature of these marvelous worlds before we ...flow!

DE also highlights interesting consequences for contact between beings of differing metabolic rates. What if ET lives and thinks much faster or slower than us? Should we assume parity?

[Procyan]

The structures involved do not need to be atomic in nature. Life could consist of self-organizing/replicating patterns of fluid motion, or pressure waves, or something like that.

Of course, we're accustomed to Earth's atmosphere and oceans, where such patterns are chaotic and don't last very long--but consider that Jupiter and Saturn have wind patterns which last a long time compared to what we're used to. Self sustaining and self-replicating fluid motion patterns may be possible.

What an interesting idea, even on Earth, weather systems sometimes described as cells. You could develop a story around the idea.

You might know this poem:

Big whorls have little whorls
That feed on their velocity,
And little whorls have lesser whorls
And so on to viscosity.

-- Lewis F. Richardson