OK. SUPER nitpicky Star Trek question (Spoiler)

[parallaxicality]

Here's the sort of question I never thought I'd ever be nerd enough to ask. Yeah I know. There's a Trekker born every minute. But sometimes, these sorts of things need answering.

OK.

Brushes off Chee-to dust and pats down smiley face Watchmen t-shirt.

We know from multiple sources (most recently an episode of Star Trek: Enterprise) that the planet Vulcan orbits within the star system 40 Eridani, which is 16 light years from Earth. We also know that the Romulans are descended from the Vulcans, and that they left to found their own colony thousands of years ago. Whether they left via FTL or at relativistic speeds is still not known, but in any case, it's unlikely that they could have travelled very far.

So. In Star Trek we learn that Romulus was destroyed by a nearby supernova explosion. The farthest away you can be from a supernova explosion and suffer any damage is about 30 light years, though I'm sure that's negotiable.

So. Is it physically possible, given a plausible distance from Romulus to Vulcan, for Romulus to have been affected by a supernova-capable star? Which are the nearest to Earth and how likely are any of them to blow in the next few centuries?

[nauthiz]

I tracked down a map (which I'm going to assume is at least reasonably accurate) that charts Federation and Romulan space.

Earth's at the origin, Vulcan is a bit 'south'. Assuming that distance is 16 light-years and the map is to scale, then Romulus (in the 'northwest' of the empire) would be about 60 light-years from Earth, and even further from Vulcan. I also note that it's out beyond Gamma Tucanae, which is 70 light-years from Earth.

[Gillianren]

So. In Star Trek we learn that Romulus was destroyed by a nearby supernova explosion.

Wait, we do? Oh, I am sooooo not watching that movie.

[parallaxicality]

Oh. Right. Kinda thought everyone would have seen it by now.

[Tog]

But said SN was said to be large enough to destroy the whole galaxy as I recall. That should both drastically increase the lethal radius and limit the number of candidates.

[Chip]

But said SN was said to be large enough to destroy the whole galaxy as I recall. That should both drastically increase the lethal radius and limit the number of candidates.

Yes but Star Trek apologists (like me sometimes,) willing to cut the series some slack (sometimes) - have implied that the phrase "destroy the galaxy" was not so much a scientific term as a galactic-political general statement. A kind of 'domino-theory-of-the-stars' implying that if one important world is destroyed, it would effect other worlds in terms of trade, politics and refugees, causing wars, etc., leading to the economic collapse of the Federation and other Empires.

Then again - Star Trek is full of oddball insights - and while acknowledging that it is a great show overall, I generally don't cut them as much slack in the various TV series for curing many problems with beams of energy.

[Gillianren]

Oh. Right. Kinda thought everyone would have seen it by now.

I'm sure everyone who wanted to has.

[Nick Theodorakis]

I want to see it but haven't yet.

Nick

[Tinaa]

Me either. Just can't find the time.

[nauthiz]

Ditto.

[hhEb09'1]

OK, I'm changing the title now

[Jeff Root]

When was Romulus said to have been destroyed? Was the planet
destroyed, or just the Romulan culture, with the planet essentially
untouched? In real life, a supernova could be really, really bad news
for anyone in Space throughout an awfully large volume, but have
no significant effect on a nearby planet's surface, because of the
protection given by miles of atmosphere.

Are you sure it was a supernova, not just a plain nova?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Nowhere Man]

Give it up, parallax. Star Drek was nothing but bad science from end to end.

Jeff, it was called a supernova, and there was a sequence showing Romulus being eroded away by the blast.

Fred

[slang]

Jeff, it was called a supernova, and there was a sequence showing Romulus being eroded away by the blast.

Then how could the camera survive, huh? HUH? [/childish]

(I really wish people would think of adding spoiler tags when posting, considering that people all over the world read here)

[Van Rijn]

Then how could the camera survive, huh? HUH? [/childish]

(I really wish people would think of adding spoiler tags when posting, considering that people all over the world read here)

Hopefully, anyone looking at it now will see "spoiler" in the thread title.

[Van Rijn]

Give it up, parallax. Star Drek was nothing but bad science from end to end.

Jeff, it was called a supernova, and there was a sequence showing Romulus being eroded away by the blast.

Fred

Yep, if it was close enough for that, Romulus must have been a recently terraformed planet. It's amazing it was habitable at all, being so near a massive, rapidly evolving star. Collapsing the star into a black hole wouldn't help - that in itself would be a very energetic event.

I went into the movie knowing the science would be stupid (that's not new for Star Trek), but there was just so much bad science.

[slang]

Hopefully, anyone looking at it now will see "spoiler" in the thread title.

Yes! No intention to diss hhEb09'1 at all, and thanks for his action. I meant for people to be more careful about such things on first posting.

[Van Rijn]

Yes! No intention to diss hhEb09'1 at all, and thanks for his action. I meant for people to be more careful about such things on first posting.

Agreed. Always try to remember to be careful if you're posting a spoiler (though, I have to admit, I've forgotten once or twice myself over the years, and was justifiably criticized for it).

[Chip]

One bit of physics they got right: 200 year old Corvettes might still run, but they can't fly.

[Rift]

I went into the movie knowing the science would be stupid (that's not new for Star Trek), but there was just so much bad science.

Actually there wasn't as much bad science as I thought there would be. And watching Trek for good science is kinda like watching Doctor Who for good science... Maybe it's because of the era I grew up there WAS no science in sci fi tv shows and I learned massive suspension of disbelief... Even Phil's review was rather praiseworthy of what they did get right...

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax"

I'm not saying there shouldn't be good science in TV and movies, i'm just not holding my breath.

[Jeff Root]

And this Romulus-getting-eroded-away... does it occur during the lifetime
of J. T. Kirk, or earlier, or later?

Van Rijn,

Why do you infer that Romulus must have been recently terraformed?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Tog]

And this Romulus-getting-eroded-away... does it occur during the lifetime
of J. T. Kirk, or earlier, or later?

Romulus is destroyed around what would be the time after the Nemesis Film. Spock is still alive, but old.

From there, the Romulan ship is pulled through the wormhole to encounter Kirk's father's ship, literally at the time of Kirk's Birth. and changes the timeline

About 25 years later, Old Spock appears through the wormhole as New Spock, and New Kirk are at the Academy.

[Jeff Root]

Oh, so the film provides an explanation for the differences between it and
the canonical Star Trek? Time travel again! Sheesh! I like time-travel
stories, but they never belonged in Star Trek. ... On the other hand, I
won some Star Trek novels in a raffle once, and one of them was a pretty
interesting time-travel puzzle.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Van Rijn]

And this Romulus-getting-eroded-away... does it occur during the lifetime
of J. T. Kirk, or earlier, or later?

Van Rijn,

Why do you infer that Romulus must have been recently terraformed?

If it was close enough to a massive star to be vaporized in a supernova, as indicated in the movie, it wouldn't have had billions of years to develop a native ecology. It probably couldn't be terraformed at all, if such a star were that close.

[Van Rijn]

Actually there wasn't as much bad science as I thought there would be. And watching Trek for good science is kinda like watching Doctor Who for good science... Maybe it's because of the era I grew up there WAS no science in sci fi tv shows and I learned massive suspension of disbelief... Even Phil's review was rather praiseworthy of what they did get right...

As I said, I knew the science would be stupid. I expected it. The problem for me was that there was just too much stupid science, stupid plot, and stupid stuff (like a brewery in a starship).

I'm not saying there shouldn't be good science in TV and movies, i'm just not holding my breath.

I'm not either.

[Jeff Root]

I haven't carefully looked at the ages of stars when they go supernova.
Couldn't this planetary system have been, say, a billion years old, giving
Romulus enough time to develop photosynthesizing plant life which filled
the atmosphere with free oxygen?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Van Rijn]

There are essentially two ways to get a supernova - a massive star at the end of it's life on the main sequence, or accretion/merging with a white dwarf (Type 1a supernova). Visually, this wasn't accretion or merging with a white dwarf, but a large star exploding. A massive star has a lifespan of a few million years.

[Van Rijn]

Just saw this over at Memory Alpha:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Supernova

In Star Trek: Countdown, the official comic book prequel to Star Trek, the star which went supernova and destroyed Romulus was called the Hobus star. It is explained that the Hobus supernova was unlike any previously seen: as the supernova grew, it converted mass into energy, which increased its power and allowed it to expand. As a result, its threat reached beyond the Hobus system and potentially the entire galaxy.

Uh-huh. Of course, all supernova convert mass to energy, but this was supposed to be something more, obviously. They should have called it a hypernova. It still would be hard to affect the entire galaxy. And there aren't many hypernova candidates.

[Van Rijn]

So. In Star Trek we learn that Romulus was destroyed by a nearby supernova explosion. The farthest away you can be from a supernova explosion and suffer any damage is about 30 light years, though I'm sure that's negotiable.

It was also indicated that Romulus had little or no warning when the supernova occurred, and given their FTL capability, that also puts a severe limit on how far away the supernova could have been from Romulus.

[mike alexander]

Um... you all do realize this is just a fun late spring romp at the theater?

I know some others here are old enough to remember watching the original series on NBC. Hope so, anyway. What amazes me is how ANGRY people seem to get discussing a television program. Not even NOVA. Or Meet the Press. Man, lighten up.