Calendars, dinossaurs and what to fear from outerspace

[glaucoman]

Hi all, good to get back.

I'm in debt on electric space theories but I'm a little curious about that new findings regarding asteroid impact as not the dinossaurs extinction cause and I would like to share some thoughts and to speculate a little about this topic.

I will try to explain now what I intend to bring up here till the end of this week. For decades, we thought that a big asteroid impacted to Earth 65 millions years ago and causes the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction. This should trigger a lot of other natural devastations, like earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanic eruptions. But, according to new researches made by Gerta Keller shows that the impact didn't killed the dinossaurs, even the ones on the area where the asteroid collided.

Nowadays, the Torino Impact scale is used to determine how much energy an impact would cause to the Earth. But I'm on serious doubt about how this would be useful, because, tks to Gerta Keller, we know that even that big asteroid colliding with Earth was not strong enough to create massive earthquakes, tsunamis or volcanic eruptions, because even the species around the impact zone didn't died. So, what to expect from next big objects flying around outer space? Is they really so dangerous? If not, what cosmic force killed the dinossaurs so quick and so devastating?

Due to some reading I'm doing since I'm remember my name, I knew that some very important ancient cultures like Indians, Chineses, Hebrews, Latins, Mayans, Babylons and probably Japaneses had changed their calendars almost in same time. Sure I will bring sources for this statement I'm doing and I will post it till the end of this week as I said before, BUT I want to discuss a very single question with you guys: why would such cultures changes their so-sacred millenar calendars at same time if the astronomical observations never changed since mankind came to the surface of the Earth? Also, if something big enough to change astronomical observations some hundreds of thousand of years ago happened, and they had to change their calendars due to that, wasn't be more important to research what kind of event happened on that time (through Hebrew bible and some other old documents, like the ones from Chinese Empire that they have to had) and to prepare for future events instead on looking for rocks in outerspace?

I guess we can speculate a lot, since nobody knows what killed the dinossaurs and we are the next on the list !

Tks and regards!

ps: Jokes are welcome!

[AndrewJ]

I guess we can speculate a lot, since nobody knows what killed the dinossaurs and we are the next on the list !

If you're interested, there is a thread on the worth and efficacy of searching for destructive asteroids on the questions/answers forum right now.

Even if the Yucatan impact wasn't the sole cause it can't have helped...

[glaucoman]

If you're interested, there is a thread on the worth and efficacy of searching for destructive asteroids on the questions/answers forum right now.

Even if the Yucatan impact wasn't the sole cause it can't have helped...

I don't think that the asteroid was one of the reasons at all, because signs of mass extinction for that period was found only 300.000 years AFTER the collision.

[Swift]

why would such cultures changes their so-sacred millenar calendars at same time if the astronomical observations never changed since mankind came to the surface of the Earth? Also, if something big enough to change astronomical observations some hundreds of thousand of years ago happened, and they had to change their calendars due to that, wasn't be more important to research what kind of event happened on that time (through Hebrew bible and some other old documents, like the ones from Chinese Empire that they have to had) and to prepare for future events instead on looking for rocks in outerspace?

My non-expert answer is I do not believe that various cultures did change their calendars at the same time. I do not recall ever seeing any evidence of such a thing, nor do I recall hearing that.

I await your evidence.

[AndrewJ]

if something big enough to change astronomical observations some hundreds of thousand of years ago happened, and they had to change their calendars due to that, wasn't be more important to research what kind of event happened on that time (through Hebrew bible and some other old documents, like the ones from Chinese Empire that they have to had) and to prepare for future events instead on looking for rocks in outerspace?

Written sources can only describe historical events and perspectives. Material evidence and applied theory is necessary to reconstruct pre-historical events. I do not see the connection between the last dinosaur extinction (prior to the emergance of the first primate) and comparatively recent calendar systems.

[glaucoman]

Written sources can only describe historical events and perspectives. Material evidence and applied theory is necessary to reconstruct pre-historical events. I do not see the connection between the last dinosaur extinction (prior to the emergance of the first primate) and comparatively recent calendar systems.

I understand you and that's what I want to discuss. We know dinossaurs died in a cataclism: wasn't a long-term period to its extinction. So, whatever happened, was so big and coming from outerspace that the dinossaurs would write about that if they could. I know - and I will show you - that ancient cultures, from at least from XV BC to VIII BC used a 360-day calendar and, suddenly, they changed to a 365 1/4 calendar or made adjustments, like hindus nowadays do: they have their old 360-day calendar for religious festivals and a civic one with 5 Dreadful days every year and one more day each 4 years like our Feb.29. In this link you will find that Romans used a 360-day calendar from it's beggining on 753 BC to, at least, 716 BC when Numa Pompilius was elected the new Rom's King, and he was the one who changed their calendar. I can't imagine how is possible to any civilization to advance like Romans did without a precise calendar to know correct dates to plant. They wouldn't survive for 2 years, I imagine, and by following the same wrong calendar for 6 years would create a lot of more confusion that an illiterate would realize when a Full Moon are rising instead a New Moon. And I'm not talking yet about seasons in incorrect year periods, wich you can imagine would be a disaster for agriculture.

So what's my theory? That something big made mankind change it's calendar that time due to astronomical changes, and something bigger killed the dinossaurs. I'm doing the research I promised about the calendar's changing around the world in my personal library but some books are really old, so I'm not sure if I will be able to find them to read on the internet, but I will list all of them anyway.

[grant hutchison]

I can't imagine how is possible to any civilization to advance like Romans did without a precise calendar to know correct dates to plant. They wouldn't survive for 2 years, I imagine, and by following the same wrong calendar for 6 years would create a lot of more confusion that an illiterate would realize when a Full Moon are rising instead a New Moon. And I'm not talking yet about seasons in incorrect year periods, wich you can imagine would be a disaster for agriculture.

You don't need a calendar to track the seasons: they're two separate concepts. The Muslim calendar doesn't track the seasons at all. It's been in use for centuries in many parts of the world. Do you have any evidence of agricultural chaos, confusion and death arising from the adoption of the Muslim calendar?

Grant Hutchison

[glaucoman]

You don't need a calendar to track the seasons: they're two separate concepts. The Muslim calendar doesn't track the seasons at all. It's been in use for centuries in many parts of the world. Do you have any evidence of agricultural chaos, confusion and death arising from the adoption of the Muslim calendar?

Grant Hutchison

grant,
Ask to any agronomist how important is a correct calendar for agriculture. Anyway, you're right about the Muslim calendar, but what you don't know is that the Saljuq Sultan, Malikshah Jalal al-Din, hired Omar Khayyam to create a new solar calendar for administrative purposes, which includes agronomy. The Muslim calendar is the most important for islam due to it's religious purposes, but is not used for agronomy.

[jlhredshift]

I will try to explain now what I intend to bring up here till the end of this week. For decades, we thought that a big asteroid impacted to Earth 65 millions years ago and causes the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction. This should trigger a lot of other natural devastations, like earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanic eruptions. But, according to new researches made by Gerta Keller shows that the impact didn't killed the dinossaurs, even the ones on the area where the asteroid collided.

I would suggest that you might want to read Peter Ward's Rivers in Time to dispel some of your questions. Also, Charles R. Marshall and Peter D. Ward's paper in Science came in response to the concerns of Dr. Keller and shows the sharpness of the K/T boundary an ocean away from the point of impact.

[glaucoman]

I would suggest that you might want to read Peter Ward's Rivers in Time to dispel some of your questions. Also, Charles R. Marshall and Peter D. Ward's paper in Science came in response to the concerns of Dr. Keller and shows the sharpness of the K/T boundary an ocean away from the point of impact.

Alright, tks! Anyway, don't forget that Keller's new work is still being prepared for scientific review, so will be indispensable to analyse both theories. I'm sure someone from scientific comunity will do that - or not -, so let's wait a little.

[jlhredshift]

Alright, tks! Anyway, don't forget that Keller's new work is still being prepared for scientific review, so will be indispensable to analyse both theories. I'm sure someone from scientific comunity will do that - or not -, so let's wait a little.

From day one, without waiting, Dr. Keller and Dr. Officer have been opposed to the impact theory and have been trying to find evidence against it since the 1980's. I wouldn't hold your breath.

[grant hutchison]

Ask to any agronomist how important is a correct calendar for agriculture.

No, a correct understanding of the seasons is important for agriculture. There are other ways to determine the seasons.

Anyway, you're right about the Muslim calendar, but what you don't know is that the Saljuq Sultan, Malikshah Jalal al-Din, hired Omar Khayyam to create a new solar calendar for administrative purposes, which includes agronomy. The Muslim calendar is the most important for islam due to it's religious purposes, but is not used for agronomy.

There you go. A religious calendar that is out of synch with the seasons, and therefore not used by farmers. That's what the Romans had, before the Julian reform. I recall reading a commentary written during the later years of the Republic, remarking how ridiculous it was that the harvest festival (a religious festival celebrated according to the calendar) happened while the crops were still standing unripe in the fields. So it appears the Roman farmers had other sources of information, outside the calendar.

Grant Hutchison

[jlhredshift]

No, a correct understanding of the seasons is important for agriculture. There are other ways to determine the seasons.

There you go. A religious calendar that is out of synch with the seasons. That's what the Romans had, before the Julian reform. I recall reading a commentary written during the later years of the Republic, remarking how ridiculous it was that the harvest festival (a religious festival celebrated according to the calendar) happened while the crops were still standing unripe in the fields. So it appears the Roman farmers had other sources of information, outside the calendar.

Grant Hutchison

Absolutely, as a farmer, I know that when the perennial asparagus comes up I had better be getting my seed in the ground.

[Argos]

Due to some reading I'm doing since I'm remember my name, I knew that some very important ancient cultures like Indians, Chineses, Hebrews, Latins, Mayans, Babylons and probably Japaneses had changed their calendars almost in same time. Sure I will bring sources for this statement I'm doing and I will post it till the end of this week as I said before,

I took the time to do a little research on the calendars you mentioned, and I haven´t found any evidence of this calendar change synchronization. I´d point out that 'Indian calendar' is a somewhat vague expression, given the various ethnicities occupying the Indian subcontinent. The calendar systems are also mixed, some people employing lunar calendars, other going with lunisolar and solar ones. The Japanese calendar is derived from the Chinese one. Here´s a small list containing the ones you mentioned, so the folks here can take a look for themselves.

Indian National calendar
Hindu calendar
Chinese calendar
Hebrew calendar
Maya calendar
Babylonian calendar
Japanese calendar

[Gillianren]

And anyway, just before the Julian calendar reform, there was a year in the Roman calendar with over four hundred days, in part because people in the Senate had been adding days to the calendar for years, not out of any astronomical or agricultural significance, but to honour people. Often themselves. With the institution of the Julian calendar, that practice was forbidden, the last year covered all the extra days needed to bring it into sync, and the calendar was set.

[glaucoman]

From day one, without waiting, Dr. Keller and Dr. Officer have been opposed to the impact theory and have been trying to find evidence against it since the 1980's. I wouldn't hold your breath.

Here is the evidence after 29 years of research, now is time to discuss.

[glaucoman]

No, a correct understanding of the seasons is important for agriculture. There are other ways to determine the seasons.

There you go. A religious calendar that is out of synch with the seasons, and therefore not used by farmers. That's what the Romans had, before the Julian reform. I recall reading a commentary written during the later years of the Republic, remarking how ridiculous it was that the harvest festival (a religious festival celebrated according to the calendar) happened while the crops were still standing unripe in the fields. So it appears the Roman farmers had other sources of information, outside the calendar.

Grant Hutchison

Sure, their source of informations was the same that jlhredshift uses: his own knowledges about harvesting. But the king have admistrative rules and no harvesting knowledge, so he needs a calendar to make oficial planting season for each culture that he have in his kingdom. Otherwise, he would have to ask each farmer what is the time to plant and to harvest each kind of plant. This, as you can see, is not a good administrative practice for a whole kingdom.

[AndrewJ]

Why are folks discussing the history and use of calendars? There's nothing ATM about that in the slightest. The ATM aspect of the OP, which the poster has not explained, would be the link between calendars and the K-T extinction.

If volcanism rather than an impact were the cause it would still amount to extinction due to environmental change.

[grant hutchison]

And anyway, just before the Julian calendar reform, there was a year in the Roman calendar with over four hundred days, in part because people in the Senate had been adding days to the calendar for years, not out of any astronomical or agricultural significance, but to honour people. Often themselves. With the institution of the Julian calendar, that practice was forbidden, the last year covered all the extra days needed to bring it into sync, and the calendar was set.

Yes, the extra length of the Last Year of Confusion brought the calendar back into alignment with the seasons, fixing the problem my Roman commentator (Virgil?) was grouching about.
Other evidence that the Romans ticked along just fine with their calendar askew comes from the campaigning seasons: Caesar crossed the Rubicon in January by the calendar, for instance, but that was late in the campaigning season.

Grant Hutchison

[grant hutchison]

Sure, their source of informations was the same that jlhredshift uses: his own knowledges about harvesting. But the king have admistrative rules and no harvesting knowledge, so he needs a calendar to make oficial planting season for each culture that he have in his kingdom.

Why? The farmers will plant when it is time, and harvest when it is time, and they won't care a jot for any "official" planting season.

Grant Hutchison

[glaucoman]

I took the time to do a little research on the calendars you mentioned, and I haven´t found any evidence of this calendar change synchronization. I´d point out that 'Indian calendar' is a somewhat vague expression, given the various ethnicities occupying the Indian subcontinent. The calendar systems are also mixed, some people employing lunar calendars, other going with lunisolar and solar ones. The Japanese calendar is derived from the Chinese one. Here´s a small list containing the ones you mentioned, so the folks here can take a look for themselves.

Indian National calendar
Hindu calendar
Chinese calendar
Hebrew calendar
Maya calendar
Babylonian calendar
Japanese calendar

You're right, that's what I'm researching after job: my books regarding calendars. Your links, as more as people likes to use them for research, are just anyonecanedit pages, and is not intend to explore all the variations you can find for, as example, a so hard science like calendars are. But please don't you care, I will bring up just good books and official links

[glaucoman]

And anyway, just before the Julian calendar reform, there was a year in the Roman calendar with over four hundred days, in part because people in the Senate had been adding days to the calendar for years, not out of any astronomical or agricultural significance, but to honour people. Often themselves. With the institution of the Julian calendar, that practice was forbidden, the last year covered all the extra days needed to bring it into sync, and the calendar was set.

Thanks for such informations! I'm sure you know politicians sucks =P

[grant hutchison]

Why are folks discussing the history and use of calendars? There's nothing ATM about that in the slightest.

Glaucoman is suggesting that a number of calendars changed in synchrony because an astronomical event precipitated the need for new calendars. That's ATM in several ways.

Grant Hutchison

[Argos]

But please don't you care, I will bring up just good books and official links

OK, it´s up to you to bring us evidences of a major calendar adjustment involving cultures as different as the Babylonians and the Japanese. I´m eagerly awaiting.

[glaucoman]

Why? The farmers will plant when it is time, and harvest when it is time, and they won't care a jot for any "official" planting season.

Grant Hutchison

If you are bellow a kingdom, and the kingdom needs your harvest to feed the population, you will have to take care of official planting season. Probably, if you are a good farmer, you will not have even to care about it because you know when is the time. BUT if you do a mistake by not following the official planting season... you will get trouble!

Can you imagine how easy it turns to administrate food in your kingdom if you have an official calendar?? Think like a king and you will understand it.

[jlhredshift]

Here is the evidence after 29 years of research, now is time to discuss.

I'm sorry, but I see nothing new about her argument.

[glaucoman]

Why are folks discussing the history and use of calendars? There's nothing ATM about that in the slightest. The ATM aspect of the OP, which the poster has not explained, would be the link between calendars and the K-T extinction.

If volcanism rather than an impact were the cause it would still amount to extinction due to environmental change.

I will explain the link as soon as the people here understand why is a calendar so important for agriculture. After that, as I'm promising, I will link the calendar changes I found with the dinossaurs extinction with a cosmic event. What event? I don't know, that's what I want to discuss =D! But don't you forget please: mamooths was extincted just a few thousand years ago with a lot of mistery with them. There are a lot of studies for this case as dinossaurs have, but no ultimate theory at all. Well, who will study our fossils thousands years in the future =D?

[AndrewJ]

Glaucoman is suggesting that a number of calendars changed in synchrony because an astronomical event precipitated the need for new calendars.

OK, I can't fathom the underlying rationale so shall not contribute any further.

[glaucoman]

I'm sorry, but I see nothing new about her argument.

Do you want to discuss that? What do you understand in her findings?

This is what I understand:

They dig layers on impact area and they found the same animal and plant species in every layer for next 300.000 years. No just that, but now we know that the impact didn't killed even the species around there. They never published such findings since 1980's because it is very very new.

[jlhredshift]

Do you want to discuss that? What do you understand in her findings?

This is what I understand:

They dig layers on impact area and they found the same animal and plant species in every layer for next 300.000 years. No just that, but now we know that the impact didn't killed even the species around there. They never published such findings since 1980's because it is very very new.

Ok, let's first look at what she said in 2006.