"Babel Magazine" (online mag) - January 6, 2002 (LENGTHY art

[Magnificent Desolation]

Unfortunately it seems that our bossom buddy Bart has forced his way into the mind of yet another person .....

Her name is Lisa Guliani and she has now written quite a lengthy article for the online mag "Babel Magazine" (http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/issue41/lunarlies.html)

Hmm ! - I wonder if Hollywood would consider doing a remake of "The Excorcist" ?

The credits should read:

"Starring Bart Sibrel as "The Demon"

Starring Lisa Guliani (or any other innocent hoax believer) as "Regan"

Starring Jay Windley as "Father Merrin"

Starring Phil Plait as "Father Karras"

(And instead of holy water, they would use pulverized moon rocks ...)

Anyway, as mentioned above, the article is at this URL:

http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/issue41/lunarlies.html

A quote:

"If you aren't firmly entrenched by now in the belief that the American government is completely full of [word deleted by The Bad Astronomer], please consider this: No one has ever stepped foot on the moon. You may or may not have heard this statement before. Before you send me all kinds of hate mail - hear me out. I strongly recommend that EVERYONE watch a video entitled: "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Moon". It was written, produced, and directed by a man named Bart W. Sibrel. Mr. Sibrel spent five years and $500,000 researching this subject. His evidence is not merely convincing, but downright overwhelming. If, after viewing the footage on this film and contemplating the facts and glaring deceptions, you STILL believe any human could possibly have walked on the moon, then please seek help because it definitely means your head is up your [word deleted by The Bad Astronomer]."

(End of quote)

*************

IS THERE AN EXCORCIST IN THE HOUSE ????? JAY ?? PHIL ?? ANYONE ?? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

"Magnificent Desolation"




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Magnificent Desolation on 2002-03-30 14:59 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Bad Astronomer on 2002-03-30 16:39 ]</font>

[AstroMike]

I wish people would start looking at Clavius more than Sibrel's crap.

[Andrew]

It's ironic that someome will spout such nonsense about having been deceived into believing that the lunar landings were real, and yet, as soon as they've watched Sibrel's video will blindly accept it's conclusions, without checking with any secondary sources.
And worse, a magazine is actually publishing this rubbish.

[The Incubus]

On 2002-03-30 15:10, AstroMike wrote:
I wish people would start looking at Clavius more than Sibrel's crap.

Who doesn't?

The (Laughing at the rediculous horror of all this) Incubus

_________________
"Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a night. But set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Incubus on 2002-03-30 20:28 ]</font>

[The Bad Astronomer]

I have emailed them, asking if I can rebut. We'll see what happens.

[Jigsaw]

You can back up the URL and put in different issue numbers and look at some of their other stuff. Very strange and electic. It runs the gamut from the paranormal to the bondage sex story.

List of articles for Issue 40.
http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/issue40/

For example. Didja know they've discovered Atlantis off the coast of Cuba?
http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/issue40/atlantis.html

I can't get a handle on how they decide what to include--I'm guessing it's just stuff that Victor Thorn stumbles across while surfing the Internet and thinks is interesting.

Writer's profiles. Lisa Guliani. She's apparently not a "paranormal" specialist, which is what I was wondering.

http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/profiles.html

I am 35 years old, hailing originally from Brooklyn, New York. Currently, I live in the Northwoods of Wisconsin, where I am continually inspired by the wealth of beauty in my surroundings. I have been writing for 25 years, and am a published freelance writer and poet in Minnesota and Wisconsin. I love the infinite forms of the language of poetry, and the often subtle and not-so-subtle ways the written word can give shape and form to an emotion. I love the power of the written word. My work has appeared in several online literary magazines, such as Seeker Magazine, Poetic Reflections, and The Big Lick Literary Review, based in Roanoke, Va. I write in different genres, including children's literature, fiction, and non-fiction, as well as comedic pieces. If interested, one may read my poems at Paramount Poetry, where I have my own page of original work.

She's a serious LIT-rachoor person. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[jagster]

Jigsaw -
I wouldn't call it Atlantis, but I have read a few things about this and it seems like there just may be something down there. Clearer pictures are supposed to be forthcoming so I am suspending judgement until then.

Sorry BA...way off topic but I couldn't resist.

[The Bad Astronomer]

Well, I got a reply back from the author of the article. I frown on publishing personal email, so I'll just say that she is not about to let me publish a rebuttal of her statement. Of course, she accused me of being on the government payroll, and of being a disinformation agent.

Sigh.

[Andrew]

I think Sibrel is a disinformation agent. Not sure if he's on any government's payroll though. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[JayUtah]

"The power of science compels you!"

It's always interesting to hear these authors talk about the suppression of ideas and the dangers of rigidly guided thought, and then refuse to give an equal hearing to the other side of the debate. Of course the propagandist's best tool has always been to convey the notion that the other side is the propaganda. Sure, they want us to have an open mind, but only open enough to accept their lame ideas.

Many journalists don't see the harm in giving mainstream air time and print space to wackos like Sibrel. After all, they're only reporting what someone else has researched and published. That's "newsworthy" isn't it? They don't seem to realize that they're spreading misinformation and contributing to the "dumbing down" of America culture. But so long as they get their front page story or their ratings, they think they've served the public interest. According to their metric, they've given the public what they want to see and read.

The cure for bad speech is more speech. Sibrel is obviously out shopping for people who will get his message out without costing him anything. We simply have to be just as prolific. It has to be just as easy to pick up a magazine and read something critical of the hoax theories.

We all need to write letters to the editor of this magazine and express our opinion on the article in question.

[The Incubus]

On 2002-03-31 12:34, The Bad Astronomer wrote:
Well, I got a reply back from the author of the article. I frown on publishing personal email, so I'll just say that she is not about to let me publish a rebuttal of her statement. Of course, she accused me of being on the government payroll, and of being a disinformation agent.

Sigh.

Raise your hand if you saw that one coming.

Why does this woman's seeming inability to even look for (or listen to) other viewpoints on this whole thing frighten me?

*sigh*

The Incubus

PS. That reminds me, does anyone have a link to that article debunking Bart Sibrel's video? I know it was posted here at least once, and I'd like to read it again.
_________________
"Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a night. But set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Incubus on 2002-03-31 13:18 ]</font>

[AstroMike]

On 2002-03-31 13:14, The Incubus wrote:
PS. That reminds me, does anyone have a link to that article debunking Bart Sibrel's video? I know it was posted here at least once, and I'd like to read it again.

Is it this one?

[The Incubus]

Is it this one?

Yup.

Danke schön =-)

The Incubus

[Kaptain K]

It has to be just as easy to pick up a magazine and read something critical of the hoax theories.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The "sensational press" wants strories that are -well- sensational. In their eyes, "hey, we really did go to the moon" just doesn't rank with "Your gummint lied to you".

We all need to write letters to the editor of this magazine and express our opinion on the article in question.

Did that as soon as I finished the article.

[Jim]

On 2002-03-31 12:34, The Bad Astronomer wrote:
Well, I got a reply back from the author of the article. ... she accused me of being on the government payroll ...

I told you, it's that flippin' hat!

What's interesting to me is how someone with absolutely no formal (or, apparently, informal) training in science in general or astronomy in particular thinks she is qualified to voice an unresearched opinion on a scientific subject. It seems that she believes common sense is enough to qualify her.

Of course, "common sense" says the earth is flat and the sun and planets rotate around it.

[The Bad Astronomer]

I urge people to go ahead and write the author of that article (the email is on the article itself), but I also strongly request that you be as polite as possible. Nothing will shut down a reasoned discussion like anger. She said she had already received several nasty messages from people (shocking, eh). If you are sarcastic or impolite, she is far less likely to listen to you. Leave the insults and sarcasm for people like Rene.

[johnwitts]

How do we contact her? Is there an E-mail address? I couldn't find one. If you could post it here I'd be grateful. I promise to be nice. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[The Bad Astronomer]

At the bottom of the story is a red menu bar. Click on "Contact Us".

[johnwitts]

Ah! Obviously too simple for me! I expect stuff like this to be complicated! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[David Hall]

I noticed that whole idea of this "magazine" is to be a platform for people to say whatever they want. It actively solicits material from the general public, so I suppose anyone with any kind of idea or beef can write something and possibly get it in print there.

http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/intro.html

So BA, I don't think you really need to go after this lady directly, just submit a more general refutation directly to the magazine. As long as you don't attack her directly, what's she going to do?

PS: Has anyone else considered the idea that this might be Sibrel himself under a pen-name?

[AstroMike]

On 2002-03-31 21:31, David Hall wrote:
PS: Has anyone else considered the idea that this might be Sibrel himself under a pen-name?

Hmm. Could be! Two reviewers at Amazon here have said that Sibrel himself wrote two of the customer reviews, and he probably wrote the "WHY THE WAR OF WORDS?" one.

BTW, those two reviews got removed! I wonder why. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[GrapesOfWrath]

On 2002-03-31 13:14, JayUtah wrote:
"The power of science compels you!"

And, with that, congratulations Jay on completing your degree with a record high SNR. I hope these celebratory fireworks don't cause a flurry of hoax posts.

[Jim]

On 2002-03-31 21:31, David Hall wrote:
I noticed that whole idea of this "magazine" is to be a platform for people to say whatever they want. It actively solicits material from the general public...

So BA, ... just submit a more general refutation directly to the magazine. As long as you don't attack her directly, what's she going to do?

Yeah, Phil, submit. Maybe they'll put you between "Atlantis" and "Bondage Sex". [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

I did some poking around on the Babel site (I was thinking of apologizing for this, but isn't reasearch what we should do before posting an opinion?) and ran across some interesting tidbits:

1. Apparently, Babel Magazine is a joint venture between Scott Thorn and Lisa G. This is why Phil's email to the site got a direct response from her. And why nothing he submits to Babel will ever be "published" by them.

2. Lisa is a regular contributer to Babel. (See the conclusion to 1 above.)

3. Babel has a Message Board, to which Lisa posts. In one message she recommends another site, http://www.jimmarrs.com, a conspiracy theorist's dream. (You'll be happy to know the interstellar quarantine of earth has been lifted.) This is an indication of her general mindset.

4. In response to an angry would-be-contributer, Scott and Lisa posted this reply:
Y'see, here at Babel we're very inclusive, as opposed to exclusive. We want all types of voices to be heard. What you should have done was first contact us with what you're doing, and I'm sure we would have actually ran (sic) your message as a PIECE in an upcoming issue...

Ri-i-i-ight.

[Jigsaw]

"...but now that we know that you're The Enemy, and you're all out to get us, and you're on the government's payroll to boot, wild horses couldn't make us run your piece", is that it?

Yeesh. :: big rolleyes ::

[Art Vandelay]

Just read that article by Lisa G. Based on this, I think any schools she might have graduated from should revoke her degrees. She obviously learned nothing worthwhile.

Art

[DaveC]

Same old tired stuff in Guliani's article. Although my better judgment kept warning me that I should ignore it, in the end I couldn't resist sending the following email to Babel:

"Re: Lunar Lies: A Craterful of Bull**** and Why No One Went To The Moon

After reading this article by Lisa Guliani I conclude that your magazine is appropriately named:

Oxford Dictionary: babel - confused noise

or perhaps you mean: Babble - talk in an incoherent or inarticulate manner; chatter irrelevantly (from the same dictionary).

While I applaud the effort to stir controversy and prompt a discussion of the Apollo missions, I find it hard to believe that anyone who has spent any time at all analyzing the Apollo record could conclude there was a hoax. The sheer impossibility of keeping such a conspiracy hidden for 33 years is enough on its own to prove there was no hoax. As Mailer said in the quote used at the start of the article: "... Indeed, conceive of the genius of such a conspiracy. It would be men mightier, more trustworthy and more resourceful than any thing in this century or the ones before." Doesn't this suggest that man has never demonstrated the ability to pull off such a deception?

Mailer could be wrong, of course, but the technical and scientific evidence that the six lunar landings did occur is overwhelming. One need only study the video and film records with only the barest knowledge of physics and filmmaking to realize: that they were made in a 1/6 g vacuum, and that they could not have been staged. Bart Sibrel's film clip, even if his misinterpretation of the material weren't so obvious, is a pretty meagre argument to array against all the other evidence that the landings occurred.

In short, Ms Guliani's article is a compendium of arguments that rest on a foundation of ignorance. Too bad she didn't do even a modicum of research before she fell for Sibrel's pitch. Maybe truth is less important to Babel than controversy."

Did anyone else succumb to the temptation to write to Babel?

(edited to correct typos)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DaveC on 2002-04-02 15:38 ]</font>

[SpacedOut]

I thought about it but decided it was much like teaching a pig to sing – frustrates you and just gets the pig mad.

Ms. Guliani is obviously convinced the government is not only capable of lying to us about Apollo for the past 33 years, but does it all the time on any number of subjects. Once she got hold of Sibrel's video, she had all the proof she’d ever need to confirm her core beliefs.

[DaveC]

Well, she did take the time to respond with a page of insults. She was quite offended that I characterized "a woman I have never met as ignorant" and made the point that her article wasn't intended to be a scientific treatise. (Gee, I wouldn't have known that!)

Anyway, if an angry reaction is the first indication that an argument is hitting close to home, I must have scored a bullseye.

[The Bad Astronomer]

Dave, can you put a link here please? I'd like to read that page.

[DJ]

It felt like I was reading something for a high school book report or possibly high school newspaper.

Of course, when I was in high school, we didn't watch videos and then summarize them in block grammar. We did silly stuff: go to the library and find 15 references -- all different authors. We explored counter theories, even if counter-intuitive to our own thoughts. Of course, I was in high school during the age of Betamax, so maybe that was the reason.

DJ