"Oh, oh, Mexico"

[sarongsong]

Does "U.S. contractors" = Blackwater Worldwide?

You bet'cha---Blackwater West was set up last year right on the border, 20 miles southeast of San Diego, in the town of Otay Mesa.

[flynjack1]

By the way the term "wetbacks' was not always a derogatory term. I didn't google it but I believe the term was first used publicly by the Truman administration, and of course referred to Mexicans swimming the Rio Grande to get into the US. The term has been considered offensive for the last 20 or so years however. It took on a derogatory connotation over time. Things change just as it is now not proper to refer to illegal aliens as they are now referred to as undocumented workers. The Border patrol refers to them as UDA's undocumented aliens. Non Hispanic crossers are refereed to as OTH's Other than Hispanic.

[HenrikOlsen]

You bet'cha---Blackwater West was set up last year right on the border, 20 miles southeast of San Diego, in the town of Otay Mesa.

But what's to stop them from contracting to the highest bidder anyway, which would be the drug people?

[sarongsong]

Well, they say:

Mission
Blackwater is committed to supporting national and international security policies that protect those who are defenseless and provide a free voice for all. We dedicate ourselves to providing ethical, efficient, and effective turnkey solutions that positively impact the lives of those still caught in desperate times...
blackwaterusa.com

Hmmh, wonder which cartel has the most money...

[Alan G. Archer]

Whichever cartel pays Blackwater, they better have deep pockets and a good legal team.

Mr. Archer, you don't know any Special Forces people, do you?

No, only regular Army guys and gals. Why do you ask?

[RalofTyr]

America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

But what's to stop them from contracting to the highest bidder anyway, which would be the drug people?

I don't think they'd do that. That would make them criminals and targets of the US government. Being ex military, mostly, I don't think they'd do that.

I can see them joining the Minute Men or being hired on behalf of the Mexican government, but I don't see that in this current administration.

[Neverfly]

America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

The bailout is by no means a measure of wealth as much as desperation.
That 800 billion is little compared the the trillions owed in debt. So even if you gave that 800 billion to each citizen, then balanced the books and made each citizen put forth a flat rate toward the national debt, we would all, every last one of us die in debt. So would our children. And our grandchildren.

No, we canNOT finance health care for all citizens and non citizens alike, anymore than we can afford much of what we are currently doing.

[RalofTyr]

No, we canNOT finance health care for all citizens and non citizens alike, anymore than we can afford much of what we are currently doing.

We can put a man on the Moon, but we can't keep hospitals open?

[Neverfly]

We can put a man on the Moon, but we can't keep hospitals open?

Um.. Do you see them closing?

[Alan G. Archer]

America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

303,824,640 people (July 2008 estimate) x $500,000 = $151,912,320,000,000
Or...
138,893,908 taxpayers (fiscal year 2007) x $500,000 = $69,446,954,000,000
Or...
Outstanding public debt per person = $34,830.29 (the last time I looked).

I have no personal debt, and have been debt-free for nearly thirteen years, but my personal savings, not including my retirement account, would pay for only about 58% of my share of the outstanding public debt. I am currently unemployed and have no health insurance.

But what's to stop them from contracting to the highest bidder anyway, which would be the drug people?

I don't think they'd do that. That would make them criminals and targets of the US government. Being ex military, mostly, I don't think they'd do that.

I can see them joining the Minute Men or being hired on behalf of the Mexican government, but I don't see that in this current administration.

We should not be seeing weird outfits like Blackwater under any administration.

[Argos]

What did the US do right that Mexico (and by extension, a lot of other South American countries) have not?

I wouldnīt be able to answer this question without getting into politics. And thatīs what this thread is. Stripping it of the political content makes it a phony discussion, a launch platform for racial and cultural attacks. I see a lot of innuendos already [e.g. post #3]. Since we cannot discuss the political [and economical] whys of the US success in that regard, this thread really donīt belong in BAUT.

(*) Not to mention that is has drifted away from the OP subject.

[Argos]

Times have changed. The term 'wetback' isn't used in polite company anymore.

Oh, good to know somebody is interested in being polite to the Mexicans. Thatīs not the impression this whole discussion leaves.

[Tinaa]

That is sad Argos. I don't think any of us here dislike Hispanic or Latino people or any other culture or that matter. I live in south Texas. I know that people here are just people, no matter the color, culture, whatever. It is just that in discussions of immigration problems, or any other problem, people automatically assume it has racial overtones. It is just not necessarily true.

[Argos]

With all due respect, Tinaa, if post #3 is an example of good argument...Itīs fine for me. After all, Iīm not Mexican. Not even Latin American or [argh] 'Latino' [we donīt define ourselves in these terms]. Iīm from Brazil, a continent in itself [which, believe it or not, also faces problems with illegal immigration, given our economic success - and the way we deal wtih it is substantially different than the US way]. But we have had emigration to the US [which is fortunately reversing], and the stories I have heard make me a little bit touchy on the issue.

Iīm trying to be a good advocate for the nice people of Mexico.

[Swift]

The bailout is by no means a measure of wealth as much as desperation.
That 800 billion is little compared the the trillions owed in debt. So even if you gave that 800 billion to each citizen, then balanced the books and made each citizen put forth a flat rate toward the national debt, we would all, every last one of us die in debt. So would our children. And our grandchildren.

No, we canNOT finance health care for all citizens and non citizens alike, anymore than we can afford much of what we are currently doing.

May I suggest that discussions about health care or the bailout be done in another thread, so as not to hijack this one. And even then, please follow our no politics rule.

Also please note that I quoted Neverfly's post only as an example - this warning is aimed at everyone

[mahesh]

The U.S.-Mexico border areas have been increasingly impacted by illegal activities.
What to do?

Didn't James Taylor sing this song, sarangsong?

[EricM407]

The cartels have more power in Mexico right now than any organized crime group in the US ever did, and I'm talking right up to the Prohibition Era Commissione.

What did the US do right that Mexico (and by extension, a lot of other South American countries) have not?

We ended Prohibition, for one thing. But that's not really an option for Those People, is it?

[Argos]

We ended Prohibition

Booze is not prohibited in Latin/South America, and it never was. The end of the Prohibition Era in the US was nothing more than a return to good sense. I donīt think the 21st century international drug traffic compares with the state of affairs in the 1920's USA, both in nature and scale.

[Doodler]

America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

I'm going to hate myself for answering this, but I can't let it go.

All that would be is Zimbabwe style money printing. With the bailout, there's the expectation of repayment and/or re-investment. If the government cuts you a check for $500k, is there a chance in heck of you paying it back, or investing it and making more money? No. Its just dollars run off in a fax machine and flushed into the market. In fact, that's all that most of the money issued so far has done, and Congress is up in arms over it, because they were lied to (again).

Not saying any more, this is going in an entirely too political direction as it is.

[BigDon]

We should not be seeing weird outfits like Blackwater under any administration.

Several of my friends, who were my age but still fit, joined up as they were too old to re-enlist in active duty military. With skill sets 25 years of active duty give you. One did two term in Afghanistan and three in Iraq. And at 57 he is done and bought a house. With 15 acres.

Who do you think they are hiring?

[EricM407]

I donīt think the 21st century international drug traffic compares with the state of affairs in the 1920's USA, both in nature and scale.

No. 1920s era gangsters in the US didn't have a vastly more wealthy external market that they could use to fund their operations.

[Argos]

No. 1920s era gangsters in the US didn't have a vastly more wealthy external market that they could use to fund their operations.

Thatīs what I meant.

[Gillianren]

With all due respect, Tinaa, if post #3 is an example of good argument...Itīs fine for me. After all, Iīm not Mexican. Not even Latin American or [argh] 'Latino' [we donīt define ourselves in these terms].

Most of the Mexican/Central American/South American immigrants with whom I went to high school used "Latino." The one that shouldn't get used is "Chicano," which by definition means "people from Chihuahua." I wouldn't use the term myself if they hadn't; I tend to use the term that people of that group ask me to. Then again, I would call you Brazilian and Cathy Garcia Guatemalan and Aunt Teresita Peruvian and so forth. It's just for the larger group that I would use "Latino," and since you've said that it doesn't cover Brazilians, I wouldn't use it for you. Then again, I already knew that Brazil has a very different cultural history than the rest of South America, given the Portugese influence.

[Boojum]

America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

More like $2,000 per person, but you were pretty close.

[BigDon]

Now everybody I worked with while moving furniture was able to show bonefides relating to their legal abilities to work in this country.

Oddly enough, most agricultural minded Mexicans seem to come from Northern Mexico with it's large ranchs and most of the Mexicans I did laboring jobs with were from Southern Mexico. As distinct as Notherners and Southerners here.

And the ones that come up to work tend to be good church going, farm raised people. Like church going, farm raised people anywhere. After allowing for the fact that they are young men away from home, in a foreign country. They were constantly coming to get me when some junkie ex-con we were seeing could be trusted enough for a full second chance started stuffing his pockets. (As I'm not the police, I'll turn your butt upside down and shake you out)

When I got to my last outfit, at first the Mexicans had *me* on trial. To make sure I wasn't a junkie/thief as can be all too common in the laboring classes. And when I was not only none of the above, but also an experianced mover, not lazy AND wasn't afraid to step up to the plate when the situation demands it of me, we became great friends.

This is not only a negative employment trait, it's a negative health trait. As if a member of your crew is caught pilfering, it is not unknown for the *feds* to go to every member of the crew's residences with warrents to make sure you a not a professional gang of thieves.

I've seen that happen three times in six years. Once I only avoided it because I was sick with uh, the scotch flu, and swapped out with another guy who had a warehouse job that day but wanted the more money my scheduld job would have brought.

Any crew I'm on that has newbies I feel might need the "lecture" in it, I tell them right up front, (out of customer's earshot) where we all stand and why, and then I watch for guys who relax and guys who fidget. And in my heart this puts the consequences, which are also spelled out, on them. It's not hard not to steal other people's stuff. Really.

[Argos]

Then again, I would call you Brazilian

Thanks, Gillian. Perfect for me.

It's just for the larger group that I would use "Latino," and since you've said that it doesn't cover Brazilians, I wouldn't use it for you.

You Know, officially we speak a Latin-derived language. But 'Latino' is a a dislocated term [if not derogatory because of the US immigration implications] for most Brazilians, especially those from the South [which is comprised of a great deal of Germans, Japonese, Polish, Italians, Lebanese, etc, and aggregates more than 50% of the countryīs population], like me. Iīd also point out that Brazil is also home for millions and millions of African descendants. Itīs really a multicultural caldron. The Oktoberfest in Blumenau is on par with the African celebrations in Bahia and the Afro-indian Boi-bumba festival in the Amazon. So, thereīs not much of a Latinidad left.

OK. Back to Mexico.

[Swift]

I'm going to hate myself for answering this, but I can't let it go.

You and everyone else needs to. Was I not clear? No discussions about health care, no discussions about the financial crisis.

This thead has been on the edge since the start. Next time it crosses the line, for anything, it is closed.

[sarongsong]

Didn't James Taylor sing this song, sarongsong?

Yes, and his phrasing of the title encapsulates that country's charm and appeal to those who want to see her do well.
Just wanted to point out the border situation here is rapidly worsening with no positive solutions in sight.

[korjik]

Make immigration legal. Then you'll have no further illegal activities.

Legal immigration would stop the drug trade?

[korjik]

With all due respect, Tinaa, if post #3 is an example of good argument...Itīs fine for me. After all, Iīm not Mexican. Not even Latin American or [argh] 'Latino' [we donīt define ourselves in these terms]. Iīm from Brazil, a continent in itself [which, believe it or not, also faces problems with illegal immigration, given our economic success - and the way we deal wtih it is substantially different than the US way]. But we have had emigration to the US [which is fortunately reversing], and the stories I have heard make me a little bit touchy on the issue.

Iīm trying to be a good advocate for the nice people of Mexico.

How does Brazil deal with immigration?