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So the thread Bad Medicine got locked in Bad Astronomy the book and the BA sugested the discussion be brought here. I wasn't in on the thread I missed it(but I was interested in the topic) but here is a new chance for people who are interested. I am not beskeptical as I work in research but I have some knowledge that may be helpful. So if anyone is interested post away........
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Well I don't know much about the topic. But I say that homeopathy does have some medicinal value. Yes. It is nothing but water and we all know water is very good for you when you're feeling under the weather.
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I have a question. Homepathic proponents claim that homeopathic remedies work because the work contains a "memory" of the chemical that was in it prior to dilution. But, why does that make it better than the chemical itself? If an echo of the drug is potent enough to do the trick, surely using the drug itself would be even better.
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Except that, as I understand it, there are other considerations:Originally Posted by Glom
-The drug may be poisonous in larger concentration.
-The more you can dilute the drug, the less the cost to the supplier.
-If you can convince people that the "memory" of the drug in the water is
enough to do the trick, you can also probably convince them that you can
send that "memory" through your computer, as has already been done.
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Just give 'em a sugar pill.
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I attended a talk on Voodoo science at my school and one of the things that was mentioned was homeopathic medicine. The speaker talked about the dilutions used in some of the "medicines." The supposed cure for diaper rash used poison ivy extracts that were extremely diluted. He gave a great comparision. If Julius Ceaser peed in the Ocean, today the concentration would be the same as that medicine. He also said somthing about another cure. He worked out the dilution and I can't remember the numbers, but he said it was one part in a number that is greater than all the particles in the known universe. Sure sounds like a cure to me.
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The placebo affect is an interesting thing. Every drug that Iam aware of goes through a placebo test because the ability of the body ot heal itself is quite extraordinary. Think of all of the damage the body can repair on its own......broken bones, cuts, contusions, and diseases. The immune system alone has the ability to morph and change its responses in almost unlimited ways. Once you tell a person they are taking something to help that is quite often enough to make them feel better, why do doctors give antibiotics for clearly viral infection? Often I have heard it said to prevent oportunistic infection but IMO it ALSO has to do with making the person feel better by giving them the magic pill they wanted when they came in the office. Most viral infections can't be successfully treated by a doctor (but by all means go to the doctor) but if the person thinks they are getting something for it they go home feeling better and they convince themselves that they are healing. Once the immune system finally clears the virus they are healed and they think wow that pill really helped.
The whole idea of memory of chemicals is odd to me to say the least.
-The drug may be poisonous in larger concentration.
Most of what is in many pills that are prescribed is simply filler material and/or chemicals to aid the function of the drug with out it being the actual active ingredient, so they already are in 'low' concentration relative to what you think you are taking.
-The more you can dilute the drug, the less the cost to the supplier.
Economic benefit to the manufacturer not patient.
-If you can convince people that the "memory" of the drug in the water is
enough to do the trick
Ummmmm.....yeah. Could the memory be trace amounts left over? But in general I don't buy the memory idea. Your immune system maintains a 'memory' because it has dedicated cells that keep the ability to recognize a pathogen or foreign particle. These cells are relatively long lived, immunizations anyone, so they stay with you as a type of memory. I am unaware of anything that points to water having the same capabilities.
Now this is not to discount the usefulness of 'natural' remedies. Many may contain useful compounds (and many do I am sure) and many chemicals were original found in nature, asprin is an example willow bark I think, but you have to be careful since they may be a group of chemicals included in the natural substance other than the one active ingredient that is helpful. There could be less than benefical chemicals in that group. so just be awre.
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An interesting note on aspirin and willow bark. It is true that the salicylic acid found in the bark is an effective pain reliever, fever reducer and anti-inflammatory. It's also an extremely strong acid that tends to do bad things to the stomach. It wasn't until the Bayer company modified it to become acetylsalicylic acid (a.k.a. aspirin) that the drug became widely used. The natural version, while effective, was not useable. The "artificial" one retained the effectiveness and increased the utility.
(interesting side note. Aspirin is originally the brand name Bayer develeoped for acetylsalicylic acid. It became the generic name over the years. Bayer also introduced another new drug that year. It was an opium derivitive to which they gave the brand name "Heroin". This also became a generic name, albeit with more sinister consequences.)
Finally, to quote the joke I used in the earlier thread.
Did you hear the one about the homeopath who died of an overdose after drinking distilled water?
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin
"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli
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There are two points that niggle me about homeopathic remedies. Firstly, exactly what is being dissolved? There's no such thing as an onion molecule. Secondly, the remedy is 'potentised' (if I've got the correct term!) by shaking it, supposedly to reinforce the effect. If you drop a magnet, you usually decrease the magnetism.
Carolyn
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The shaking it tends to be accompanied by the New Age type energy.
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Can you measure this energy, how many watts?
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Who cares? It's pseudoscientific bart. Besides, energy is measured in joules.
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An interesting point about aspirin and the other nonsteroidal antiinflammatories (NSAIDs, for obvious reasons) is that they act by inhibiting the action of the cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes on arachidonic acid, interrupting prostaglandin synthesis.
Aspirin inactivates the COX by transacetylation, changing the mloecular structure; the others more or less are competitive inhibitors, covering up the enzyme active site.
So? The point is that the enzyme active site is shaped like a long, hydrophobic tunnel where the arachidonic acid (a long chain, hydrophobic acid) slides in for the modification to take place. Water, being extremely hydrophilic (what else) can't penetrate the tunnel. So even if the water had a 'memory' it wouldn't do much good, because it couldn't get to the site where the memory would do anything. And of course, since water can't acetylate anything (lacking an acetate group) a homeopathic solution of aspirin could not in principle do what the aspirin itself does.
Homeopathy is nonsense.
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Ooh! Juicy argument!
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Interesting photos under "Water Crystals" here:...The whole idea of memory of chemicals is odd to me to say the least..."
http://www.hado.net/
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someone should pm the girl in the other bad medicine thread. she should know about this.
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So, according to homeopathy, if I dilute potassium cyanide to a 30C dilution (or whatever dilution it is homeopaths use) the water will 'remember' the essence of the cyanide and I'll die? :-? :wink:
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That's pretty much it. Which means we're all screwed because who knows what toxic chemicals have been dumped into the rivers that eventually end up flowing through our taps.
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[-X Only if you remember to shake VIGOROUSLY after every dilution. Otherwise it won't work!
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On the locked thread, someone mentioned the BBC Horizon programme in which homeopathy was put to the James Randi challenge - and failed. Two things interested me about that program.I would be interested in knowing if those two scientists' experiments have ever been repeated, confirmed, explained away...? Or is this just another "cold fusion" thing?
- Firstly, the BBC took the challenge because two independent scientists (an Italian, I think, and some woman at Queen's College Belfast) had come up with some surprising results which seemed to confirm that the diluted water did retain a "memory" of the solute.
- Secondly, after the test was completed and Randi's million dollars were safe, Randi was asked for his opinions on the whole controversy. To my surprise, he was not at all dismissive of homeopathy. He seemed to think that there might be something in the results the two scientists got that was worth investigating further.
Incidentally, in the course of the programme a vet testified that homeopathic treatments work on the horses he treats, which at the very least raises questions about homeopathic successes being merely due to the placebo effect.
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Not sure that joke would go over well in Dallas this week. Yet another hazing incident involving "Water Intoxication" or "Water Overdose" AKA Hyponatremia. At least this guy's only in a coma, another pledge in Pittsburg died earlier this year. Turns out that drinking too much water in a short period of time (e.g. 3 quarts at a sitting) can reduce the sodium in the blood and cause siezures.
WebMD http://my.webmd.com/content/article/36/1676_50497.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
More info on Dallas water hazing incident. http://home.abc28.com/Global/story.asp?S=1528017
More info on Pittsburg student who died earlier this year. http://www.pressrepublican.com/Archi...050120031c.htm
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I watched the webchat with Randi immediately after the programme. Someone asked him about what he thought of the horses and Randi said that whether a horse is getting better or not is down to the opinion of the owner, who believes it will work.
I would like to reiterate that water is always a good medicine anyway, so homeopathic remedies may have healing value, but not for the reasons the homeopaths say. Furthermore, the horses would have gotten better anyway.
Until some uses a homeopathic drug to cure cancer or AIDS, the value of this water memory will always be in doubt. I have doubts about some mainstream drugs.
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As soon as I read that I thought of James Bond and martinis! Maybe James was drinking water with 'alcohol memory'.
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a little off topic but this is really annoying me everytime i see it.
Alot of chemists (pharmacy) are now offering natropath and homeopath services from their stores. i think great , all this does is make these people seem legitimate.
i can only hope that they miss treat someone and get sued. best way to end this practice. But then i think most of the medicines they have are so weak they can hardly have any effect good are bad.
but even taken vitamines i see only become expensive urine. if you have a normal diet what good is in taking vitamines?
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None so long as you eat a healthy balanced diet.......but how many people actually do that?
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In the spirit of homeopathy, water memory, and my recently diagnosed diabetes, I am introducing a new product:
Genuine Miami Valley Maple Syrup, from my kidneys to your pancakes, direct with love...
Only $13.95 for a pint bottle. Step right up, line forms on the right, cash, credit cards, money orders only please... 8-[
Hey, makes as much sense as the rest of it, dunnit?
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Preumably from a "regular" doctor---what, if anything, was prescribed?my recently diagnosed diabetes
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Taking a vitamin supplement is not a bad thing per se. The whole question of a 'balanced diet' can be a complex one (one could live in an area where there is a low level of background iodine, leading to increased possibilities of goiter, for example. Thus, iodized salt). As long as you don't overdo the fat-soluble vitamins it probably won't hurt and may help somewhat. Lots of people go through life with very unbalanced diets.
As for prescription pharmaceuticals, the two biggest problems are inappropriate prescribing (drug not properly matched to disorder, unwanted drug interactions) on the part of physicians, and inappropriate dosing on the part of the patient (not completing a course in antibiotics, for example). A minor (only in terms of numbers, not necessarily severity) problem is idiosyncratic reactions by a pateint to a particular drug. Rare reactions (say at the 1:10,000 or smaller level) may be almost impossible to ferret out before the drug goes into widespread use.
I would add that with increasing clinical and analytical sophistication it is more and more likely that these rare reactions will be detected earlier (individual phenotyping, metabolomics).
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I am NOT endorsing homeopathy, but...That's pretty much it. Which means we're all screwed because who knows what toxic chemicals have been dumped into the rivers that eventually end up flowing through our taps.
You're forgetting the premise that "like cures like"
So diluting potassium cyanide should cure you of the poisoning, were homeopathy correct. It may even purport to make you immune to the possibility of poisoning.
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