Good aliens are bad?

[geonuc]

Greetings to all,

In response to a rather worrying reply from geonuc.

Are you really sure?, your reply intimates that you would approve of the human species becoming at best a subserviant pet of the "alien overlords" (bit melodramatic?), in actual fact something of this type of arrangement already exists here on earth. It's called religion...before you all explode with outrage let me explain.

As a lapsed catholic I remember being told (ad nauseum) that all human beings had free will...only if you followed these basic ten rules laid down ages ago.

Freedom?

Are we or are we not a sentient species?

Have we not in the past argued and faught for the right to self determination?

Are you really suggesting that a form of slavery is preferable to what we have?

We may not be perfect but we are beginning to learn how deal with some of our more pressing problems, its early days yet but give the human race a chance to prove its worth before relegating the whole species to the galactic wastebin.

Best to all and take care,

Manny

It's my personal view that freedom and self-determination are overrated. Tyranny is bad; truly benevolent governance is good (and I repeat my underlining).

Your example of religion I see as an example of what I describe as humans not being real good at benevolence. The hypothetical aliens do not suffer from this character flaw.

[geonuc]

I was reading this, and I just happened to glance over at your avatar...

Heh.

Zim I think would not be in the mold of the OP's aliens. He tends to focus more on Doom than prosperity.

[geonuc]

That's not how I understood OP. Teabinge asked whether "benevolent alien rule" would be a good thing or a bad thing. Not how each of us individually would feel about it. (It is entirely possible to conclude something is objectively good, yet not like it. And vice versa.)

Not sure I grasp the semantic subtlety you infer. But to make my view clear:

I think it would be a good thing for me personally.
I think it would be a good thing for the human race as a whole.

[Neverfly]

My statement is completely relevant. The OP asked how we would feel about benevolent alien overlords, I responded.

This human welcomes them.

Heh,.. nooo...

Because your welcoming them has nothing to do with your statement that I said was irrelevant either.

[Neverfly]

Yeah. You see, unless I´m missing something, the OP does not picture a tyranny. He talks about freedom. It means that humans would still be entitled to vote and being voted. A common Alien-Human agenda could be pursued. The Aliens are not enslaving mankind, or stealing our resources. They´re nurturing, educating, healing. It´s not like the run-of-the-mill utopia we see in Plato and More, either, prone to human deviations. That´s about a higher order of social organization.

In my book, governing is a technical activity. If you master the allocation of resources and the distribution of justice, you´re a good governor.

Are we rejecting the Alien government because of a species-centric view? What´s the problem in seeing them as immigrants capable of good governance?

Ok so hang on.

The OP made it sound like the Aliens came up and TOOK control.

It didn't say that we voted them into office.

[Neverfly]

in actual fact something of this type of arrangement already exists here on earth. It's called [blankety blank]

I agree, but you can fill in that blank with:
Government
Police force
And many other examples of enforced idealism.

It Most Definitely already exists here on Earth and I, for one, am feeling the squeeze.

[Argos]

The OP made it sound like the Aliens came up and TOOK control.

Be it. Given their intellectual and ethical superiority, they´ll naturally take control [and I daresay people would want that]. Of course, if they´re good enough, we could gently ask them to leave.

[marsbug]

And if they said no?

[Argos]

Well, then relax and enjoy.

[stutefish]

How do we know the aliens are truly benevolent? How do we know they're magically exempt from the weaknesses which plague us humans? How do we know they're not suffering from other, alien weaknesses that work subtly and irrevocably to our detriment?

We can't know these things, of course. The only hope we have of avoiding such a risk is if the aliens are both transparent in their dealings with us, and always give us the option of going our own way, free of their influence, if we choose.

And of course a hypothetical supreme being, that by definition really did know what was best for everybody, and could do no wrong, would be a different matter altogether, and one not really appropriate for discussion here.

[Teabinge]

I would be on the side of benevolent aliens, if I trusted them, which is the difficult part for me.

Maybe even angel-like aliens would be a bad thing for humankind. Bad for our growth and maturity. Maybe we would be like children forever under the protecting wings of our overlords. But considering the immense suffering on this planet...

(A possible alternative regarding Fermis' paradox: There are intellligent aliens out there, they are able to reach us, but they know that contact wouldn't benefit either them or us. So, they stay away).

[tdvance]

Ok, one more

This also reminds me of the Butterfly story.

A man sees a butterfly emerging from its cocoon. He carefully pries away the cocoon thinking that he is helping the butterfly.
But when it's free, it's wings are crumpled and useless because it is the struggle to free itself that forces blood into the wings of the butterfly, filling them.

We have developed to be the way we are. Without the bad things in life, we would become unhappy, even lethargic.

Thinking back on my life, I know I would not be who I am today if it were not for the trials in my life, the hard times, that shaped and molded me into what I have become. And I am still developing. Still growing and learning each day.
To have that taken away is to deprive me of LIVING.

And honestly, I feel it's already begun without any alien intervention....

In a lot of ways, it is true--for example, the occasional recession (short-lived, hopefully!) is necessary for a healthy economy, just as the occasional forest fire is necessary for a healthy forest. Go too long without a recession and when it finally comes, it will be a pretty bad one.

[tdvance]

I'll align myself with Argos and welcome our new alien overlords. A truly benevolent overlordship is the perfect form of government. Comparisons to instances in human history are not relevant, as it was still humans governing humans. And, as we all know, humans tend to fail miserably at benevolence.

That is true--and when we do get a benevolent dictator, he eventually dies and his son is not quite the man his father was. The US Constitution was written under the premise that bad people would end up in government!

[tdvance]

How do we know the aliens are truly benevolent? How do we know they're magically exempt from the weaknesses which plague us humans? How do we know they're not suffering from other, alien weaknesses that work subtly and irrevocably to our detriment?

We can't know these things, of course. The only hope we have of avoiding such a risk is if the aliens are both transparent in their dealings with us, and always give us the option of going our own way, free of their influence, if we choose.

And of course a hypothetical supreme being, that by definition really did know what was best for everybody, and could do no wrong, would be a different matter altogether, and one not really appropriate for discussion here.

I haven't read every post--was "Childhood's End" mentioned? Benevolent overloards, who turned out to be "devils" in appearance, and in the end it was left unstated whether they were truly angels or devils in their effect on humanity.

[Neverfly]

Well, then relax and enjoy.

Uh.
No.



That is not how things work.

Force is met by force.
I will NEVER relax and enjoy an enforced dictatorship, no matter how "benevolent" the enforced dictator is claimed to be. A benevolent creature would not force.

How do we know the aliens are truly benevolent? How do we know they're magically exempt from the weaknesses which plague us humans? How do we know they're not suffering from other, alien weaknesses that work subtly and irrevocably to our detriment?

Heck not even weakness... How do we know that they are not flat out EVIL by our standards and are tricking us into thinking they are sweet and squirrel happy happy yay?

Pretending to be here to be our buddies only to gain full control and then devour us one way or another?

And of course a hypothetical supreme being, that by definition really did know what was best for everybody, and could do no wrong, would be a different matter altogether, and one not really appropriate for discussion here.

Any supreme being rolling off the pike can be nice and friendly all he wants, he's not gettin' my trust right off the bat.
I'm not even quick to give it to humans, which I know I can handle. Why would I give it to a supreme being which I may NOT be able to fend off if necessary?

But considering the immense suffering on this planet...

Thanks, but we're already on it.

(A possible alternative regarding Fermis' paradox: There are intellligent aliens out there, they are able to reach us, but they know that contact wouldn't benefit either them or us. So, they stay away).

Scans revealed that I live here.
"Beware of Dog."

[Neverfly]

Memorandum:
Attn: Supreme Alien Overlord

From: Inferior Earth Human




Dear Sir,

Bite me.

Love, an adoring Earthling.

P.S. The extended middle finger is not the Earth Greeting of welcoming friendship

[Argos]

That is not how things work.

Force is met by force.

The problem is there´s nothing we can do about it, faced with such a supreme force.

I´m repeating Carl Sagan [not the exact] words: everytime any two civilizations meet, one of them will be so advanced that their ways will look like magic to the other one.

We assume that civilizations are born every couple of million years apart, since the odds for them arising at the same time are slim. So, any of them will always be a couple of million years more advanced [or more backwards] than the other one. Deal with that.

[Neverfly]

The problem is there´s nothing we can do about it, faced with such a supreme force.

I´m repeating Carl Sagan [not the exact] words: everytime any two civilizations meet, one of them will be so advanced that their ways will look like magic to the other one.

We assume that civilizations are born every couple of million years apart, since the odds for them arising at the same time are slim. So, any of them will always be a couple of million years more advanced [or more backwards] than the other one. Deal with that.

That is not how I work. Magical technology or not.
I do not "deal with it"

And you know Argos... You can disagree with me. But you will never change my mind. And you should be very glad- that people like me exist.

It is simply not human nature to "deal with it" when oppressed or enforced dictatorship comes along. We resist.
It does not matter how advanced they might be, we resist.
We find ways.
Perhaps this is another solution to Fermi's paradox: Other beings avoid us because, in spite of their superior technology, we're too stubborn to be conquered.

[stutefish]

I agree that Argos' "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach has some appeal, and if they really did seem to improve my quality of life, I might adopt such an approach. But I certainly wouldn't welcome such a scenario. On the contrary, I'd very much oppose it, and would certainly examine the "beat 'em" option in great detail before giving up. If they don't give me the choice of rejecting their offer outright, then they're doing it wrong.

[Argos]

And you know Argos... You can disagree with me. But you will never change my mind. And you should be very glad- that people like me exist.

Neverfly, don´t take me as a cowardly Terran, a 'collaborationist'. In fact, I´m the quintessential minuteman. But we´re talking of a totally new order of things.

The interaction proposed by the OP is yet to be addressed by philosophers and political thinkers. We are treading unchartered terrain here, and I´m not sure whether values like 'honor', 'courage', 'patriotism', 'nationalism', apply.

[Neverfly]

Neverfly, don´t take me as a cowardly Terran, a 'collaborationist'. In fact, I´m the quintessential minuteman. But we´re talking of a totally new order of things.

The interaction proposed by the OP is yet to be addressed by philosophers and political thinkers. We are treading unchartered terrain here, and I´m not sure whether values like 'honor', 'courage', 'patriotism', 'nationalism', apply.

They ALWAYS apply

The moment they stop applying, we stop living.


You know Argos... I'm not a coward either. But there is something I am afraid of...
I'm afraid to die... having not died well.

I mean there are a lot of ways that a man can die. Drown in his own vomit. get devoured by an anaconda. Get shot in the chest when his wife reaches for something on the bedside table even though you have a restraining order against her.

I hope to live well. And I hope to die well.
If I cannot live well- I will die well.


And I can think of no better way to die, than to do so fighting for my freedom.


Honor and Courage (note that I used no quotation marks) are essentials to freedom.



You can form a 'committee' of philosophers and thinkers while I am loading my weapon. I guarantee you that I will finish my task before you do. A few years before you do.
You can pontificate on it all you want. In fact, that is the purpose of this thread.
But this thread cannot change one thing.

We're human.
We value our freedom.
Our right to screw up. To grow. To learn.

We value our tragedies, pains, trials... We use them.
We USE them.


I want a better life too. And I will work toward that goal. I will be a builder. Not a sucker. Not a slave to it. Not a peasant to the advanced.

If you want your binky, that's fine. I'll fight for your right to have it. But I don't want a binky and fluffy pillows, safety and assurance I'll never have to suffer or fight or hurt...

I WANNA LIVE.

[geonuc]

LOL! I guess Nev and I are on polar opposites with this one.

I say, if these aliens will be all that the OP supposes they will be and can do all that good stuff like curing cancer and stopping wars, bring 'em on! Here's the keys to the planet.

[Neverfly]

LOL! I guess Nev and I are on polar opposites with this one.

I say, if these aliens will be all that the OP supposes they will be and can do all that good stuff like curing cancer and stopping wars, bring 'em on! Here's the keys to the planet.

<Hands him is binky>

ETA: Hope you don't fall for the Samaritan Ruse while handing over your keys

[marsbug]

Benevolence is overrated.
The benevolence of the western world has led to more primitive tribal societies becoming dependant, and loosing the ability to function alone. If we turned over or governance to aliens we would become dependent on them for it, and should their rule end we would find ourselves up s*** creek without a paddle, unable to cope with our own natures. I can think of no sadder end for humanity. And I don't believe for a second that any amount of alien education could remove our darkness from us. The best that can, or should be done is for us to learn ourselves to control it.

Aggression, expansionism, violence, these are vital components of our makeup. Not because they're good things, but because having them gives us an understanding of them, which enables us to deal with them. An extended period of pampering by aliens would rob us of that, and leave us helpless if the next bunch of aliens to come along were empire builders, or if a faction of humanity or our alien overlords went the same way.

Not to mention the most important point: a race that seizes control, and takes you choices from you, is not benevolent, whatever their subsequent actions. Did the woads and picts thank the romans?

[stutefish]

Not to mention the most important point: a race that seizes control, and takes you choices from you, is not benevolent, whatever their subsequent actions. Did the woads and picts thank the romans?

Ah, but the Romans were mean. If they had seized control nicely, politely, of course their new subjects would have thanked them!

[Argos]

Yeah, there´s no way to compare. We´re before a new dimension of interaction.

I think it all boils down to the definition of 'good'. What´s the supreme good? I say it is Supreme Justice. If they´re capable of supreme justice [as the OP implies], where´s the evil?

[ravens_cry]

Lucky, yes. If they aren't interested in a) selling us as pets b) killing us out right or c) use as slave labor, I guess we are rather well off. However, what do they know about how to make a blissful utopia for humanity? They are aliens for Petey's sake, they may know how to solve all the mysteries of physics, solve all their woes and ails, and make life happy for their species. At least of Mr. G Od and His/Her crew showed up, at least we can be assured that, if they were the real deal, they made us, so they must have more of an idea on how we work, and how to work around the kinks and bugs in the programming. But just aliens showing up and took over? I don't exactly see how we would stop them, but that is not the point. The point is, what makes you sure they won't completely and utterly screw up? They may have solved all their problems, but that doesn't mean they can solve ours. In fact it could mean, because of the preconceptions they built up from solving their own problems, it would be more dangerous to give them the controls at ours. Benevolence does not equal aptitude.

[mugaliens]

If they were benevolent, I would think they'd give us a choice. But when they do that, most humans would say, "Thanks, but no thanks - we've got it." Both pride and arrogance runneth deep througheth the human soul. Oh, we'd want their toys - just none of the overlordshipness.

[Neverfly]

If they were benevolent, I would think they'd give us a choice. But when they do that, most humans would say, "Thanks, but no thanks - we've got it." Both pride and arrogance runneth deep througheth the human soul. Oh, we'd want their toys - just none of the overlordshipness.

Arrogance?

What?

Your post makes us sound awful. Like retards that don't know what's good for em.

According to the OP, we know what's good for us better than the aliens.

[toothdust]

I think they would stay away and let us figure it out for ourselves. Much more rewarding than having all the answers handed to us on a cosmic platter.

Think about this. When you were a child, and you faced a problem, and say your parents knew the answer. The first thing you probably did was ask for the solution. Some parents give it, others just point them in the right direction and tell you you have the ability to figure it out, or they may ask you questions to get you to figure it out.

Fast forward 30 years. If you were in the first group of children who received all the answers without having to think for yourself, you probably still live your life expecting the solutions from others. i.e. you are an idiot.

If you were in the second group who had to figure it out for yourself, with or without gentle guidance, you are most likely a much better functioning adult, and probably much more grateful in your hindsight that you weren't just handed the answers.

Therefore I think it is much more meaningful, rewarding and exciting to figure it out for ourselves, as opposed to being handed a cosmic binky of truth.