Good aliens are bad?

[Teabinge]

Think:

Eventually, presumably after decades or psychological priming using occasional UFOs to reduce the chock, aliens come to earth to be the masters of humankind.

They are not like the aliens of ”independence day”. They are very intelligent and moral beings, giving us a lot of good stuff like the cure of cancer, longevity, the end of wars, starvation and most of crime etc.

They allow us a lot of personal freedom to travel, to raise a family, to make cinemas, to have religious activities etc but kind of restrict us regarding weapons, certain forms of science and some other things deemed to risky for them, us and others.

They are most benevolent to us, and even a bit god-like like we are like gods to our dogs. Or maybe (more accurate) like good parents towards 5-8-year old kids.

Like parents, those aliens would not be able to always handle things perfectly, if a group of humans got really destructive, they might have to use
some force or even violence, but not very much, thay have ways of stopping us and our bodies in ways that are not bloody or physiologically destructive in other ways.

They would be far more advanced than us, and in many ways not interfering too much with us. In many ways, they would keep to themselves, but would have interaction and communication with us too.

Why they'd come here? They feel they have a moral obligation to do so. They are convinced of being something like a white, shining city at the mountain top. They have observed the immense suffering, here and in some other worlds, and consider it better to intervene than not to intervene. They are aware of the risk of a negative psychological and cultural impact during maybe a hundred years, but are certain that problems due to that will disappear eventually and the total outcome would be a very positive one.

In fact, like good parents, they really are interested in us, in our history and philosophy, and they'd sometimes say that they too have a lot to learn from us.

In general, we would be able to live a better life than before, albeit with certain restrictions, but not at all severe restrictions, not at all like in the Soviet Union or North Korea.

They would be a bit like angels. very good beings, sometimes harsh when necessary, but so would angels be too.

So, would this alien-goverened utopia be a good thing or a bad thing?

I suppose we are divided on this.

I imagine a movie where this division cuts a family in two. The wife and the children are very happy with the new order, while the husband feel like freedom and pride is lost and allies with freedom-fighters …

If something like this would ever happen, I think humans would be very suspicious, even paranoid, and I guess I would be that too, even if I am the kind of person who would choose being governed by good aliens if they would be able to reduce the suffering on this planet. If I was certain that the aliens really were good, I would choose that, but in reality (since there wouldn't be any certainty) I would be very suspicious and fearful, waiting for the them to show their true colors...

[Argos]

If aliens can remove the horrors of the human condition, it´s fine for me. No doubt what you describe is better than any current human government.

[PraedSt]

Argos, you've ignored your own sig!

[PraedSt]

Serious answer: no thank you.

[Argos]

Argos, you've ignored your own sig!

Not quite.

Freedom is preserved in hte model above. We´d still be free to take risks. The human struggle through history has aimed exactly what is proposed in the OP. If aliens can speed up the process [provided that they transfer the technology] what´s the problem? Paraphrasing Swift, I praise our aliens overlords.

[PraedSt]

Paraphrasing Swift, I praise our aliens overlords.

Paraphrasing Warren Platts,

GIVE ME LIBERTY
or
GIVE ME DEATH!

(Patrick Henry)

[tdvance]

Robert Forward's "Dragon's Egg" kind of addressed this problem--the Cheela, made of nuclear material, progressed from stone (for an appropriate definition of "stone" on a neutron star) age to extra-galactic exploration in several human days. To thank the humans for giving them an encyclopedia that served as a pattern for their own scientific development, they sent humans all kinds of information (the "true" laws of physics, etc.).

however, the best stuff was encrypted, and the keys to the encryption were fundamental constants yet undiscovered by humans.

The reason was fear that just handing the knowledge over on a silver platter (so to speak) would ultimately destroy human intellectual society (or set it back for a while) since there'd be a time before humans were the equals to their new technology so they could advance even that--possibly enough time that humans forget how to do things like scientific discovery and technological advancement.

There is also the "break your spirit" problem too--why work hard to prove Fermat's Last Theorem when the aliens just hand you a computer that proves what you want, when you want it?

There is something to be said about slow and steady development, though a small number of enhancements aren't necessarily harmful.

[Argos]

PraedST, I´d rather be governed by Aliens of high intelligence and ethics than by the corrupt riff-raff we are used to in this tortured planet. At the end of the day it does not matter much.

[PraedSt]

Ah but you could govern, if you so wanted to, couldn't you?

[stutefish]

It'd be a dictatorship, that's for sure. Set up to serve the aliens' purposes, not our own, it would go against everything we hold dear as humans, whether we are staunch individualists or dedicated socialists.

Any alien who offered us the choice of joining their mission, of making their goals our goals, and offered to assist us if we joined forces with them, always giving us the freedom to keep our own counsel and go our own way, would be most welcome. Any alien who imposed their idea of a Better Tomorrow on us without giving us a choice in the matter... not so much.

A benevolent dictatorship is still a dictatorship.

[Teabinge]

What if, there was a country here on earth, thinking of itself as a shining city on a mountain top, that felt morally obliged to intervene in other countries to save human beings from suffering and tyranny. Bringing democracy and other things that the superior culture deemed important?

[Neverfly]

What if, there was a country here on earth, thinking of itself as a shining city on a mountain top, that felt morally obliged to intervene in other countries to save human beings from suffering and tyranny. Bringing democracy and other things that the superior culture deemed important?

Political much?
I halfway agree with you.

But on the other hand, providing people with freedom which they don't have prior to the provision sounds a bit different to me than providing enforcement of ideals.

Some people are too oppressed to effectively fight back by themselves and need a helping hand in overcoming oppression.

[ravens_cry]

Remember, How to Serve Man was a cookbook.
As for these hypothetical alien beings, well, meetings between societies of a vastly different technological level haven't exactly turned out well on average throughout recorded human history.

[tnjrp]

Think

Not if I can avoid it, thank you...

They are most benevolent to us, and even a bit god-like like we are like gods to our dogs

Thinking back on how my three dogs are at this moment reclining back in my house, suffering from nothing worse than mild boredom (unless they are in fact all asleep as I suspect), the scenario does sound awfully tempting...

[Teabinge]

O, here is another provoking (possibly) thought:

What if it was not aliens, but the second coming of Jesus Christ and a host of angels ruling over humankind and "a new earth and a new heaven" for a thousand years. An era of peace and prosperity, where the lion lied down with the lamb.

A benevolent dictatorship to be avoided at any cost? Anyway, the end of staunch individualism, I suppose.

I guess some people, that are staunch individualists AND devoted christians at the same time (they are quite a few), would find the second coming of Christ rather difficult to cope with because of their strong feeelings against anything that implies a hindrance of total individual liberty.

Wouldn't a godly rulership of Jesus and a host of angels be a kind of benevolent dictatorship too?

I don't mean to start a clashing and bashing of different religious or political views!

If anything, I would like to point out the dilemma in all this, I find it interesting.

[Neverfly]

Is the United States a benevolent Dictatorship?

In some ways, I would say yes, according to some of the definitions in this thread.

[Neverfly]

Robert Forward's "Dragon's Egg" kind of addressed this problem--the Cheela, made of nuclear material, progressed from stone (for an appropriate definition of "stone" on a neutron star) age to extra-galactic exploration in several human days. To thank the humans for giving them an encyclopedia that served as a pattern for their own scientific development, they sent humans all kinds of information (the "true" laws of physics, etc.).

however, the best stuff was encrypted, and the keys to the encryption were fundamental constants yet undiscovered by humans.

The reason was fear that just handing the knowledge over on a silver platter (so to speak) would ultimately destroy human intellectual society (or set it back for a while) since there'd be a time before humans were the equals to their new technology so they could advance even that--possibly enough time that humans forget how to do things like scientific discovery and technological advancement.

There is also the "break your spirit" problem too--why work hard to prove Fermat's Last Theorem when the aliens just hand you a computer that proves what you want, when you want it?

There is something to be said about slow and steady development, though a small number of enhancements aren't necessarily harmful.

The something like 1 million time differential was interference however.
It took the Cheela many generations to record what the humans were sending them. They DID have to progress on their own, the human information was sent alphabetically (The hero did not have the luxury of time and that was the fastest way) so much of it had to be cross referenced generations later or simply explored and uncovered on their own, anyway.

[Neverfly]

We are the product of evolution.
As such...

We need to hurt. And hurt eachother sometimes.
We need to suffer a little bit.

We need these things.

To quote the Captain: " I need my pain!"


This premise is along the same lines as Asimovs, "I, Robot."

Humans will resist. Simply because what's "good for us" is not necessarily what we need.

[Neverfly]

Ok, one more

This also reminds me of the Butterfly story.

A man sees a butterfly emerging from its cocoon. He carefully pries away the cocoon thinking that he is helping the butterfly.
But when it's free, it's wings are crumpled and useless because it is the struggle to free itself that forces blood into the wings of the butterfly, filling them.

We have developed to be the way we are. Without the bad things in life, we would become unhappy, even lethargic.

Thinking back on my life, I know I would not be who I am today if it were not for the trials in my life, the hard times, that shaped and molded me into what I have become. And I am still developing. Still growing and learning each day.
To have that taken away is to deprive me of LIVING.

And honestly, I feel it's already begun without any alien intervention....

[tnjrp]

What if it was not aliens, but the second coming of Jesus Christ and a host of angels ruling over humankind and "a new earth and a new heaven" for a thousand years

Actually, I think it's supposed to be forever, once the things really get started. There are all sorts of odd complications to the scheme tho so I could be wrong.

Anyway. Sounds about the same deal to me (only with even less of the bad stuff happening to us than any less-than-godlike thingy would be able to prevent). Then again, I'm one of them God-denying Satan-worshiping Darwino-communist atheists. Don't worry tho, I won't eat your babies. I'll feed them to my attack dogs instead

[marsbug]

[QUOTE=Teabinge;1379904]Wouldn't a godly rulership of Jesus and a host of angels be a kind of benevolent dictatorship too?
[QUOTE]

I think you'd find 'Paradise lost' an interesting read. At the end the ex-angel Lucifer reaches the same conclusion, and that motivates him to continue his (hopeless) rebellion against god. He decides he'd rather be free, lose for certain, and be tortured for all eternity, than be a blissfull slave.

The author was a human, so he must have based the character on feelings he'd had or could imagine having. That speaks volumes for how some people would react to 'benevolant' alien overlords.

There might be a section of the population that would never accept being controlled, or even loosing the 'bad' bits of the human condition. After all they're still part of our character, and that darkness can be what drives us to excel. For example one of the outcomes of the V2 WW2 missiles and the cold war was the moon landings.

Our benevolant overlords might be faced with a choice: exterminate a part of the population who would never accept them, under any terms, or accept that the paradise they are trying to build will never be complete, and never be peacefull. Given that choice a moral, or even just sensible, culture might decided to leave us well alone unless our abilities reach the point where we could pose a problem to them.

Or to put it another way:
You try to teach your kids morals and reponsibility, because you're directly responsible for them. You don't intefere with other peoples kids, even if they're being raised in a fashion, religion, political veiws etc, of which you dissaprove (not to the point of abuse, there are limits). Raising your own kids is bad enough, and despite the balance of power being in your favour to start with, they can rebel destructively, and even injure you, from a very young age. I had a girlfriend once who at three had bitten her mother hard enough to leave a wound needing stitches, antibiotics, and left a permanant scar.

If a race of aliens has no kinship to us, no needs that forced them to trade or talk, no reason to fear us, and no reason to think we are growing up as a monster or being beaten up someone else, why would they decide to install themselves as parents? What right or reason would they have to do so?

If they turned up and established a benevolant dictator ship.... well the nearest comparison I can think of is a mentally ill person kidnapping a child to raise as their own, in their own image, and the way they're convinced is right. Unless there are some seroius extentuating circumstances, it's wrong, and carries a high risk of raising a damaged child.

Man I'm wittering on today!

[solitonmanny]

Greetings to all,

This discussion seems to have meandered from the original premise and is encroaching into areas of belief (religious) and some aspects of politics (or what passes for politics).

Some of the posts seem to be describing plot lines and devices from books (Asimov, Heinlein...even Clarke!) and some movies, with a sprinkling of some naff TV serialisations and pot boilers.

We only have to look at our own history (human) to see the impact of apparently advanced, sometimes well meaning societies as they try to enlighten the "poor, ignorant barbarians". It's not only the social structure of the indiginous people that gets damaged badly, but sometimes even the local ecology gets a hammering because the so called enlightend newcomers introduce flaura and fauna that prolifirate throughout at such speed and vehemence that it could prove to be disastrous to the local way of life.

Transpose this to the original premise and extend it to include our prediliction for screwing up even the most simple and fundemental aspects of living on this little mudball of ours.

We learn from our experiences and our ability to question the universe around us, to be given such advanced knowledge without the experience, without the stumbling starts, without the mistakes we are never able to appreciate our own true worth, nor would we be able to announce "ic facit est"..."I made this" to the rest of the community out there (if there is...drop us a line)in the universe.

There is an old saying that seems apropriate "if something seems to be too good to be true...it probably is", behind the smiles and the good intentions of any potential friends from afar could be something else.

To become one of the lotus eaters is a greater curse than you can imagine.

'bye for now and take care all,

Manny

[geonuc]

I'll align myself with Argos and welcome our new alien overlords. A truly benevolent overlordship is the perfect form of government. Comparisons to instances in human history are not relevant, as it was still humans governing humans. And, as we all know, humans tend to fail miserably at benevolence.

[Neverfly]

I'll align myself with Argos and welcome our new alien overlords. A truly benevolent overlordship is the perfect form of government. Comparisons to instances in human history are not relevant, as it was still humans governing humans. And, as we all know, humans tend to fail miserably at benevolence.

Actually, this whole statement you just made is irrelevant. Because it is not a matter of humans failing at benevolence.

It's a matter of humans not really wanting it. From anyone.

heck. If anything, we'll tolerate it from humans before anything else.

[geonuc]

Actually, this whole statement you just made is irrelevant. Because it is not a matter of humans failing at benevolence.

It's a matter of humans not really wanting it. From anyone.

heck. If anything, we'll tolerate it from humans before anything else.

My statement is completely relevant. The OP asked how we would feel about benevolent alien overlords, I responded.

This human welcomes them.

[Ilya]

My statement is completely relevant. The OP asked how we would feel about benevolent alien overlords, I responded.

That's not how I understood OP. Teabinge asked whether "benevolent alien rule" would be a good thing or a bad thing. Not how each of us individually would feel about it. (It is entirely possible to conclude something is objectively good, yet not like it. And vice versa.)

[PraedSt]

My statement is completely relevant. The OP asked how we would feel about benevolent alien overlords, I responded.

This human welcomes them.

I was reading this, and I just happened to glance over at your avatar...

[Argos]

I'll align myself with Argos and welcome our new alien overlords. A truly benevolent overlordship is the perfect form of government. Comparisons to instances in human history are not relevant, as it was still humans governing humans. And, as we all know, humans tend to fail miserably at benevolence.

Yeah. You see, unless I´m missing something, the OP does not picture a tyranny. He talks about freedom. It means that humans would still be entitled to vote and being voted. A common Alien-Human agenda could be pursued. The Aliens are not enslaving mankind, or stealing our resources. They´re nurturing, educating, healing. It´s not like the run-of-the-mill utopia we see in Plato and More, either, prone to human deviations. That´s about a higher order of social organization.

In my book, governing is a technical activity. If you master the allocation of resources and the distribution of justice, you´re a good governor.

Are we rejecting the Alien government because of a species-centric view? What´s the problem in seeing them as immigrants capable of good governance?

[solitonmanny]

Greetings to all,

In response to a rather worrying reply from geonuc.

Are you really sure?, your reply intimates that you would approve of the human species becoming at best a subserviant pet of the "alien overlords" (bit melodramatic?), in actual fact something of this type of arrangement already exists here on earth. It's called religion...before you all explode with outrage let me explain.

As a lapsed catholic I remember being told (ad nauseum) that all human beings had free will...only if you followed these basic ten rules laid down ages ago.

Freedom?

Are we or are we not a sentient species?

Have we not in the past argued and faught for the right to self determination?

Are you really suggesting that a form of slavery is preferable to what we have?

We may not be perfect but we are beginning to learn how deal with some of our more pressing problems, its early days yet but give the human race a chance to prove its worth before relegating the whole species to the galactic wastebin.

Best to all and take care,

Manny

[Argos]

Oh, and I´m sure you all see the implications of such an advanced civilization setting foot on Earth: Resistance is useless.

So we´re lucky if they´re good.