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Thread: Who and what are all these people?

  1. #1

    Who and what are all these people?

    Happy Thanksgiving?

    Well everyone I was wondering about something I keep hearing about from many areas of geopolitics in reference to NSSM 200 and NSSD 314 which deal with basically how much food, water, land, energy, etc is readily available for the burdgeoning population--which I am wondering if things are soooo bad on this planet and according to every bar room brainiac and internet guru ....

    Most of this post and many following posts have been removed for religious content, but the thread has been left up, because it moved away from such content as it progressed.

    -Antoniseb

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley View Post
    Surprisingly enough, I think it is true so long as you limit "people" to those who reached adulthood. But I'd like to see some support too.
    Yes you have another good point. That is what I am trying to find out from all my friends here at Bad Astronomy..someone out here has some hidden knowledge on this I am sure. I tried to crunch the numbers starting at 2000 years it comes out roughly to over 500000 people a year being born. Just does not add up to me.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    Yes you have another good point. That is what I am trying to find out from all my friends here at Bad Astronomy..someone out here has some hidden knowledge on this I am sure. I tried to crunch the numbers starting at 2000 years it comes out roughly to over 500000 people a year being born. Just does not add up to me.
    wait a minute did I add that right? No 5000000 people born a year dividing 10billion by 2000.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    wait a minute did I add that right? No 5000000 people born a year dividing 10billion by 2000.
    Now that is barring plagues, disease,floods, etc

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    Look up the word: exponential.
    Get up, a get-get, get down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley View Post
    Surprisingly enough, I think it is true so long as you limit "people" to those who reached adulthood. But I'd like to see some support too.
    The last figure I saw was 107 Bn or so, but admittedly, that was in a news article. Found some other references to similar numbers, but no mention of adulthood, at first glance.

    ETA: I thought talkorigins had something on this too but I can't find it right now.

    ToMMaN, if the numbers don't add up for the one reference that you mentioned, perhaps that's a good indication that it's not a very scientific reference.
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    Have to edit my signature now!

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    Here is one of many webpages that discusses population growth:

    http://www.deathreference.com/Nu-Pu/...on-Growth.html

    Most of the population growth is relatively recent, with reductions in mortality and increases in food production.

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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    You would have a hard job getting anything from that book past me. I don't know where you live but around here they have been documenting life for thousands of years. They have even dredged up evidence of life from the North Sea. Yes, the ground under was above or rather the waters were lower. From the stone age as well. Quite a way past 2000 years. There are also several rather intact bodies dug out from peat bog burials. And various other archeological evidence.

    So, uphill struggle for you to prove I think.

    And yes, I do go to large sporting events. I see the people enter and I see them leave. I see the traffic issues associated and the police operation to cope. I am convinced they are real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    wait a minute did I add that right? No 5000000 people born a year dividing 10billion by 2000.
    If you can explain why there are so many cockroaches, I'd be very grateful.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PraedSt View Post
    If you can explain why there are so many cockroaches, I'd be very grateful.
    Because humans are filthy and because wherever they go they overproduce waste and thus roaches and that might explain the domestication of the strains of wolves we see now and call dogs. Otherwise doomed wolves, followed humans around and mated and created weaker strains that became closer and closer to humans. So FIDO is basically a potlicker in the making! Just because we are so filthy! I project that in 10000 years a rather large Racoon or O'possum or deer will be strained into our pet clan joining cats and dogs or replacing them. Funny how that works eh?

  12. #12
    Or then again the roach population may be stable and there are too many people encroaching on roach territory.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Here is one of many webpages that discusses population growth:

    http://www.deathreference.com/Nu-Pu/...on-Growth.html

    Most of the population growth is relatively recent, with reductions in mortality and increases in food production.
    Hey thanks man!!! This is great!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    Yes fair to assume. thank you!
    Okay. Math time.
    Year 0= 2 people born
    Year 20= 4 people born
    Year 40= 8 people born
    Year 60= 16 people born
    This continues for 300 generations. Care to have a guess at the total number of people born using this rule?

    Higher. Guess higher. Whatever you guessed is way too low.

    2*2^300 would be the formula to put into a spreadsheet.
    I'm Not Evil.
    An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tog_ View Post
    Okay. Math time.
    Year 0= 2 people born
    Year 20= 4 people born
    Year 40= 8 people born
    Year 60= 16 people born
    This continues for 300 generations. Care to have a guess at the total number of people born using this rule?

    Higher. Guess higher. Whatever you guessed is way too low.

    2*2^300 would be the formula to put into a spreadsheet.
    Sort of like the old I give you a penny and double it everyday for month at the end of 30days how much to you have? Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    I just want to know How do we know everyone is from the original strain on this planet remember? I know other people are posting and the question is getting muddled up. I want to know how do we tell if all the people here are from the original human strain on this planet.
    Would just like to clarify that there's really no such thing as 'original strain' ToMMaN. As Neverfly said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Which demonstrates that humans diveged from an ape line similarly as neanderthals did- which diverged from an ape line that the orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees and other extinct species of apes did millions of years ago.
    From this- Humans did not just pop into existence, rather, we slowly uhhh... "petered in."

    p.s. Why does this remind me of the Moonman thread?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    Who is this "we" that's using the bible as a basis for origins? It's certainly not me nor, I suspect, very many others on this forum. I don't know of any real scientists studying human origins who use it as a basis, either.



    Are you saying that you suspect whether anyone and everyone you meet is really human? How...odd.



    What evidence do you have that there is an "outside source" and that it interacted with us? What evidence makes you question your own humanity? Without some reasonable basis for these questions, this sounds more like a somewhat paranoid fantasy than a serious inquiry.



    You're asking the question from the wrong direction. Look at it another way. Given what we know about ducks, it's pretty darn safe to conclude that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck; it is a duck. Now if you had evidence that a heretofore unknown duck-like creature exists, then the quacker in question would bear further scrutiny to be sure of its identity. Without at least some evidence that all these people on Earth aren't fully human, there's no reason to question their humanity.

    But for the sake of discussion...

    How about the DNA evidence (nuclear and mitochondrial) that strongly indicates common ancestry? If you know of any data that indicate the contrary, I'd sure like to see it.
    Okay now can you prove that all those ducks that ever existed in the history of ducks on this planet are really ducks beyond a shadow of a doubt? Have you met them all personally and are aware of every mating that was performed by ducks? Now you are just unhinging what was at first a great point. You are reverting to colloquiallisms and catchy phrases of the times you live in. I still like most of your post.

    I am not fantasizing here. My question still stands how do we know that every human on the planet is of the original strain? And now that I thought about it more-- Who on the planet has the most of the original strain in their DNA since we are going there it seems? For every human trait there was that first one! For every human disease there was patient 0.

    More...I want more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    Okay now can you prove that all those ducks that ever existed in the history of ducks on this planet are really ducks beyond a shadow of a doubt? Have you met them all personally and are aware of every mating that was performed by ducks? Now you are just unhinging what was at first a great point. You are reverting to colloquiallisms and catchy phrases of the times you live in. I still like most of your post.

    I am not fantasizing here. My question still stands how do we know that every human on the planet is of the original strain? And now that I thought about more. Who on the planet has the most of the original strain in their DNA since we are going there it seems? For every human trait there was that first one! For every human disease there was patient 0.

    More...I want more.
    Can you prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that you exist and are not a construct within the Matrix?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    Now if you had evidence that a heretofore unknown duck-like creature exists, then the quacker in question would bear further scrutiny to be sure of its identity.
    Crocoduck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    Okay now can you prove that all those ducks that ever existed in the history of ducks on this planet are really ducks beyond a shadow of a doubt? Have you met them all personally and are aware of every mating that was performed by ducks?
    Look up "shifting the burden of proof".
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    What, exactly, is the conspiracy here anyway?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tog_ View Post
    Yes. This is an example of "exponential growth". After the first 1000 years, the population will be only 50 generations along, but there would still have been over 2,000,000,000,000,000, (quadrillion-US) people born. That seams really high, so that would seem to say that as a race, humans could have produced far less than one child per parent and still achieved the population we see today.

    When you combine that with the evidence that shows that humans have been around for a LOT longer than 6000 years, you can see that getting to the values we see today would have been trivial to do with proper health care and diet, which actually what we're seeing now.
    Now that is what I like to read!!! I will take stock in this!

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Can you prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that you exist and are not a construct within the Matrix?
    oh...I get it the movie...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    oh...I get it the movie...lol
    I don't think you get it.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    What, exactly, is the conspiracy here anyway?
    The conspiracy is:

    Who and what are these people and how can we trust that just because some one looks like a human they are of the original strain on the planet? Are we sure that every strain is indeginous to the planet?

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I don't think you get it.
    sigh...yes I get it Flyguy. You are preparing to be the fly in my ointment...Fine. Everyone has to have a passion.

    Sure the Wachowski brothers borrowed from many different themes and genre of beliefs and cultural phenomenon. That film however good it was is not the defining pinnacle of debates on interpretation of reality. So if you wanna go that route fine i guess, but I am not really discussing interpretation but investigation instead. I am talking about the genetic integrity of the human species even a mutated human is still human..right.

    So sure I am big enough to take the jab at me for what it is worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    The conspiracy is:

    Who and what are these people and how can we trust that just because some one looks like a human they are of the original strain on the planet? Are we sure that every strain is indeginous to the planet?
    The is no "Original Strain" in the sense that I think you mean. I'm different than both of my parents in some way. If we go back 100 years, I'm probably taller than everyone in my family. If we go back 500, I'm almost certainly taller. If we go back 1000, or 2000, I'll probably tower over most of the population. I'm 5' 11".

    Each generation, everything changes a little. It won't be enough to notice from one generation to the next but it happens.

    A lot of people use a tree as an analogy, but I like a river better. Imagine you are at the mouth of a huge river and you take a water sample. This is the "original strain". As you go up the river, you will get to forks. If you go to the right, it's possible to be in water with a much different content than if you went left. As you keep going, you eventually get to the source of that branch of the river. You take another sample. This sample will look nothing like the first, but it will be part of the first. If this is the only branch of the entire river system that flows out of a silver ore deposit, it's possible that it's the only branch that contains traces of arsenic. That arsenic will still be seen in the sample from the mouth of the river, but in a much smaller amount per unit of water.

    DNA is the same way. If you go back to the first bipedal mammal, it won't have human DNA. It wont' have chimp DNA. But both humans and chimps will have traces of its DNA in their own. That's where evolution gets the term "Common Ancestry". Both humans and apes have a common ancestor. Somewhere down the road, we turned left, and they turned right. Further up their path, the chimps made a turn and became different. Further long, the gorillas, then the orangs did the same. There are almost certainly others others that have died off completely. That's the "missing link". It's not the creature that links humans to chimps. It's the one that links all the apes to one common ancestor.

    In a sense, the "original strain" of human might be something very much like the scum that forms on stagnant water. You just have to go back further.

    This is where the contention between evolution and creationism forms. Creationism says that humans arrived as humans. Period. Evolution says that something glorped its way out of the water and learned to breathe air, make fire, and buy things on credit. All scientific evidence to date favors the glorping.

    Also, let's sy that somewhere in the human family tree ET does show up somewhere. What would it really change? THere would be a little but of ET in everyone, so we'd still all be basically the same.

    Oh, but those differences would show up when we looked at our DNA compared to the DNA of other critters. Like the arsenic in the river. If only one branch ha it, it would stand out. We dont' see it, so if there was ET DNA in humans, it would have to be present in everything else as well, in which case. So what?

    (Funny side note. The spell checker doesn't like glorped, but it's okay with glorping. Might have to look that up).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    sigh...yes I get it Flyguy
    No, you still don't get it. Try it with Van Rijn's signature instead:
    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tog_ View Post
    The is no "Original Strain" in the sense that I think you mean. I'm different than both of my parents in some way. If we go back 100 years, I'm probably taller than everyone in my family. If we go back 500, I'm almost certainly taller. If we go back 1000, or 2000, I'll probably tower over most of the population. I'm 5' 11".

    Each generation, everything changes a little. It won't be enough to notice from one generation to the next but it happens.

    A lot of people use a tree as an analogy, but I like a river better. Imagine you are at the mouth of a huge river and you take a water sample. This is the "original strain". As you go up the river, you will get to forks. If you go to the right, it's possible to be in water with a much different content than if you went left. As you keep going, you eventually get to the source of that branch of the river. You take another sample. This sample will look nothing like the first, but it will be part of the first. If this is the only branch of the entire river system that flows out of a silver ore deposit, it's possible that it's the only branch that contains traces of arsenic. That arsenic will still be seen in the sample from the mouth of the river, but in a much smaller amount per unit of water.

    DNA is the same way. If you go back to the first bipedal mammal, it won't have human DNA. It wont' have chimp DNA. But both humans and chimps will have traces of its DNA in their own. That's where evolution gets the term "Common Ancestry". Both humans and apes have a common ancestor. Somewhere down the road, we turned left, and they turned right. Further up their path, the chimps made a turn and became different. Further long, the gorillas, then the orangs did the same. There are almost certainly others others that have died off completely. That's the "missing link". It's not the creature that links humans to chimps. It's the one that links all the apes to one common ancestor.

    In a sense, the "original strain" of human might be something very much like the scum that forms on stagnant water. You just have to go back further.

    This is where the contention between evolution and creationism forms. Creationism says that humans arrived as humans. Period. Evolution says that something glorped its way out of the water and learned to breathe air, make fire, and buy things on credit. All scientific evidence to date favors the glorping.

    Also, let's sy that somewhere in the human family tree ET does show up somewhere. What would it really change? THere would be a little but of ET in everyone, so we'd still all be basically the same.

    Oh, but those differences would show up when we looked at our DNA compared to the DNA of other critters. Like the arsenic in the river. If only one branch ha it, it would stand out. We dont' see it, so if there was ET DNA in humans, it would have to be present in everything else as well, in which case. So what?

    (Funny side note. The spell checker doesn't like glorped, but it's okay with glorping. Might have to look that up).
    Okay!! Now I like this is even more you are Red HOT!!!!! Now what caused the forks and also rivers to get dammed up?The rivers were dammed by humans and streams by beavers and lakes or ponds are created. I neeed to isolate those permutations to the point of origin. If the causal factors are not Earthly then I want to know. Thanks for that!
    Last edited by ToMMaN; 2008-Nov-28 at 11:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToMMaN View Post
    Okay now can you prove that all those ducks that ever existed in the history of ducks on this planet are really ducks beyond a shadow of a doubt? Have you met them all personally and are aware of every mating that was performed by ducks? Now you are just unhinging what was at first a great point. You are reverting to colloquiallisms and catchy phrases of the times you live in. I still like most of your post.
    Yet my questions to you remain unanswered. Upon what reasonable basis do you question the humanity of anyone? What evidence do you possess that would indicate any other origin for the peoples of Earth?

    I am not fantasizing here. My question still stands how do we know that every human on the planet is of the original strain?
    As mentioned, your question shifts the burden of proof...and demands an inappropriate level of proof, at that. Having an understanding of complex systems does not require intimate and exacting knowledge of each and every minute detail in each and every case. Our knowledge of the world around us is based on understanding as best we can the forces, processes, laws, theories, and principles that operate in it and by applying that understanding as the case requires.

    We have a rough but fair understanding of human origins so far, the processes that brought us about, and what it is to be human. Because none of those processes exhibit evidence of the other-than-human origin that seems to bother you, we can reliably apply our understanding of what a human is to the people we meet. We don't have to test everybody's DNA.

    Now, if you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.
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