Are we like Neanderthal's when looking for advanced civilizations?

[pie33]

There is an article on Space.com titled: Reconstructing Ets: “Lessons from a Neanderthal.” By Douglas A. Vakoch. - The article suggest that “SETI scientists, and Astrobiologists share a common challenge,” and are limited by the data to possibly find evidence of advanced civilizations outside of our solar system.

The great silence, and Fermi Paradox is similar as asking why there is no evidence of cave art for the Neanderthal. If Neanderthal had the ability to hunt, and form communities, with a proto language, why were they not able to visualize enough to put a picture on the cave walls?

One reason maybe that Neanderthal’s did not have the ability to visualize their memories, similar to how animals don’t remember their dreams. – Neanderthal’s inability to visualize is similar to our ability to detect ETI’s. – It was not until a world wide event took place about 30 thousand years ago, that the first evidence of cave art was discovered. Neanderthal, like man did not have the ability to do cave, since Neanderthal died off about 40 thousand years ago. – That is why the north American Indians labeled America as the land of dreams, because they migrated 30 thousand years ago, they could start remembering their dreams, and do drawings on stone, and rocks.

According the Fermi Paradox’s the universe should have many advanced ETI’s that should exist, yet, no observational evidence to support Fermi’s theory. – The lack of remembering a visual image is similar to not being able to discover evidence of ETI’s.

There appears to be something wrong with our thinking, or we are unable to cross over to the ETI’s worlds.

[Fazor]

One reason maybe that Neanderthal’s did not have the ability to visualize their memories, similar to how animals don’t remember their dreams. – Neanderthal’s inability to visualize is similar to our ability to detect ETI’s. – It was not until a world wide event took place about 30 thousand years ago, that the first evidence of cave art was discovered. Neanderthal, like man did not have the ability to do cave, since Neanderthal died off about 40 thousand years ago.

Interesting idea, except that Neanderthal's created "advanced" tools such as spear-heads. I don't know if you've ever carved or sculpted anything, but you have to be able to visualize the end result to achieve any amount of sucess.

I think it's just as likely that Neanderthal's and other early species did make primitive drawings or etchings, but in a medium that didn't last. Again, unsupported but in my mind just as likely.

Even more likely, IMHO, was that their primitive communication didn't necessitate drawings.

That is why the north American Indians labeled America as the land of dreams, because they migrated 30 thousand years ago, they could start remembering their dreams, and do drawings on stone, and rocks.

I doubt that's why it was called that. In fact, I hadn't heard it called that until after the European settlers had started to make America their new home. I could be wrong.

According the Fermi Paradox’s the universe should have many advanced ETI’s that should exist, yet, no observational evidence to support Fermi’s theory. – The lack of remembering a visual image is similar to not being able to discover evidence of ETI’s.

There appears to be something wrong with our thinking, or we are unable to cross over to the ETI’s worlds.

Or we simply haven't crossed paths yet. Yes, it's possible an alien civilization would communicate in a way we couldn't comprehend--or vise versa--but the universe is a big place. And Fermi's Paradox is just a statistical guess that doesn't acount for displacement. Maybe there's a thousand advanced civilizations out there, but they're all grouped up at the other side of the universe, leaving us the lone species here.

[Tom]

It's interesting to consider, we have only been transmitting radio for what, 120 years max? And, now we find our television is changing to digital, rather than analog. Other changes in communications are sure to follow. I believe very strongly that we are looking in vain, for the wrong things. And it's entirely possible we don't know what the "right" thing is yet.

The universe may be empty - or, it could be FULL of civilizations that use "x" type of communication of a type we simply cannot conceive - this year, anyway.

[Fazor]

It's interesting to consider, we have only been transmitting radio for what, 120 years max? And, now we find our television is changing to digital, rather than analog. Other changes in communications are sure to follow. I believe very strongly that we are looking in vain, for the wrong things. And it's entirely possible we don't know what the "right" thing is yet.

The universe may be empty - or, it could be FULL of civilizations that use "x" type of communication of a type we simply cannot conceive - this year, anyway.

Well, they're not specifically looking for radio or tv (which is just radio) waves; rather any kind of "noise" that appears structured/designed. So it's a broad-spectrum seach, but you are right ... if the signals are something we can't detect or look for, they could very well be there and are going "unheard".

[WayneFrancis]

I'm always weary when someone claims a trait to be unique to humans? Who says animals don't remember their dreams? I remember getting read one morning I was just getting ready to leave. My dog Missy was on her bean bag apparently dreaming about chasing something. I put some food in her bowl and she woke up, looked over and saw me put her favorite treat on top of her bowl which I thought she would have jumped up and ran over to start chewing on right away but instead she looked at it, looked back up at me then laid her head down and went back to sleep. About 30 seconds later she was apparently dreaming about her chase again.

I'd say she woke up and saw the treat and decided that her dream was more exciting then her favorite treat at that point in time.

From my understanding our brain hasn't significantly changed in size for about 200,000 and that language, as we know it, was thought to have formed around 150,000.

Are we today smarter then someone born 2,000 years ago? On average I would say yes but this isn't due to any real brain development. This is due more to knowledge transfer and diet.

Are we not able to comprehend some alien communication out there? Probably, the universe is huge. The issue is we are trying to find alien communication that would be like us. We are assuming that communication would be via normal physical mechanism. We are assuming that even if a alien civilization was a million years ahead of us and they wanted to communicate then they would be leaving messages that they would expect that less technologically advance civilizations could still understand.

This is why math is probably going to be a big part of the first contact we have. I don't care how advanced you are if you have come from this universe and are technologically advanced then you'll understand that 1 + 1 = 2. This does not require you to be able to see, hear, taste, touch, smell like we do.

Wondering if there are aliens that communicate telepathically via the 8th dimension using tachyon particles is nothing more then mental masturbation. It serves no real purpose beyond amusing ourselves.

Sure maybe we never will be able to communicate with some aliens but then who cares? Odds are they will never effect us because if they did then at some level the communication has already begun.

If I step on an ant that is communication with the rest of the ants in the area. They might not understand the "why" but they dam sure get the message that something is going on.

[Vallkynn]

The great silence, and Fermi Paradox is similar as asking why there is no evidence of cave art for the Neanderthal. If Neanderthal had the ability to hunt, and form communities, with a proto language, why were they not able to visualize enough to put a picture on the cave walls?

You don't know if they were able to visualize, i think they were. The absence of proofs doesn't prove the inverse. Anyway, why there's always the generalized idea that all our ancesters lived in caves? There aren't so many caves in the world and usually they are in the most harsh environments. I also totally disapprove the idea that ancient man were always running from predators and other dangerous animals. That would have make life impossible. When you look at ancinet tribes in Amazonia and Austarlia you see that they aren't running all the time. The problem with this is that artifacts survive in caves but not in wood shelters/houses. It's also obvious that a cave is much more uncomfortable than a straw/wood shelter. And maybe Neanderthal had no need to express it's ideas on stone.

According the Fermi Paradox’s the universe should have many advanced ETI’s that should exist, yet, no observational evidence to support Fermi’s theory. – The lack of remembering a visual image is similar to not being able to discover evidence of ETI’s.
There appears to be something wrong with our thinking, or we are unable to cross over to the ETI’s worlds.

The universe is large, electromagnetic signals take time to travel and civilizations duration are much smaller than signals travel time. We've been searching for ETs for a very very short time.

On the other way maybe we are searching with a very primitive technology not currently used by ETs. Or maybe ETs don't want to reveal their existence because we are a dangerous and violent species.

As someone said:

"The proof that alien intelligence exists is that we have never been contacted"

[mugaliens]

The universe may be empty - or, it could be FULL of civilizations that use "x" type of communication of a type we simply cannot conceive - this year, anyway.

Who knows? When we do finally stumble on that technology, we may very well listen for a while then chuck it in the wastebasked because we can't push a signal through all the "static" that exists due to it's incredibly heavy use throughout the known universe.

Also - someone mentioned EM waves. Well, that's electromagnetism, which includes light.

Combine EM with the weak force and you get the Electroweak force. Combine that with the strong force and you get the Electronuclear force (Grand Unified Theory). Combine that with gravity and you get the Theory of Everything.

Who's up for some electroweak force "radio?" It's EW because I coined the term, so no mooching.

Of course we had all the components to build a radio several hundred years before it was actually built. We probably have all the components to build an EW unit, too, but won't discover how to put it all together and make it work until around 2060.

I predict it'll have something to do with Bose-Einstein condensates...

[normbreyfogle]

Maybe we don't detect any alien communications because our entire "reality" is just a simulation, and we know nothing of the "real" universe. Perhaps we're on vacation, or in prison, or in school, and this is all a hologram, complete with false memories, false physical laws, etc.

Maybe we're all a recreation of the superscience developed during the asymptotic curve representing infinite technological advancement near the Omega Point; we could be part of a larger simulation recreating all possible past quantum states, ala Tipler's "The Physics of Immortality."

Maybe advanced communications technologies are encoded into AND AS space time events which only multidimensional superconsciousnesses can read/decipher (i.e., perhaps our realities - our very consciousnesses - ARE communications between superintelligences). "I'm just an imaginary story!" Yikes.

After all, if we're going to entertain the idea of awarenesses millions of years beyond our level, we must be prepared to consider not only the inexplicable, but even the "impossible."

[mugaliens]

Maybe we don't detect any alien communications because our entire "reality" is just a simulation, and we know nothing of the "real" universe. Perhaps we're on vacation, or in prison, or in school, and this is all a hologram, complete with false memories, false physical laws, etc.

Perhaps you've watched The Matrix far too many times.

Maybe advanced communications technologies are encoded into AND AS space time events which only multidimensional superconsciousnesses can read/decipher (i.e., perhaps our realities - our very consciousnesses - ARE communications between superintelligences).

This is actually plausible, by not by means of what we know of physics, at least not yet. Perhaps the unseen dark matter is analogous to holes punched into card stock which then becomes a...

..punchcard on which messages are encoded.

After all, if we're going to entertain the idea of awarenesses millions of years beyond our level, we must be prepared to consider not only the inexplicable, but even the "impossible."

Limited by lightspeed, however, that'd be one heck of a slow computer...

[normbreyfogle]

"The Matrix" was only tapping the worldview of one of the most ancient philosophical/mystical traditions: Buddhism. I was well aware of the "everything is illusion" paradigm literally decades before "The Matrix" was filmed, or even written.

Also, the speed of light isn't necessarily a limit to the hypothetical science of hypothetical beings millions of years more advanced than we are.

[WayneFrancis]

Perhaps you've watched The Matrix far too many times.

Sir Martin Rees has postulated this and as I remember it says that the odds that we are in a simulation is greater then the odds that we are not.
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/rees03/rees_print.html

[Tom]

I love the "reality / simulation" discussions!

If there were an "intelligence" out there, somewhere, that could perfectly create a simulation, complete with distance, physical properties, and everything else, for the inhabitants, it would be as real as real gets.

Whether we live in a simulation is irrelevant. Let's assume we could never get out of it. The "other intelligence" argument is still the same; "reachable" intelligences would be in our own reality. And, it's back to debating their existence all over again!

The simulation argument is interesting, but it's pretty meaningless.

[normbreyfogle]

That all depends on whether or not a key of some kind has been included in the simulation, a key which would allow us to escape the simulation.

[mugaliens]

That all depends on whether or not a key of some kind has been included in the simulation, a key which would allow us to escape the simulation.

Well, first, we'd need some indication that it really is a simulation. Have you heard any window washing squeegee's, lately?

[normbreyfogle]

In a very real sense, we're all only conscious of simulations, not of any ultimate "reality," because our brains only know the universe through our own limited senses and processing, our own inevitable subjectivity. Objectivity is real, but so is our subjectivity.

[Tom]

Oh, don't be a borderline nihilist! Either it's all real, or it's an unbeatable simulation. Either way you gotta work to eat and pay the bills. That's the absolute reality!

I had someone tell me that a true nihilist only really exists for a few seconds before he moves on to other things...

[normbreyfogle]

I'm a philosopher and an artist, largely a mystic. I'm definitely NOT a nihilist. Nihilism is as erroneously certain about the ultimate mystery of existence as is the worst materialistic scientist.

Grow some imagination, Tom. "Real, or an unbeatable simulation" aren't the only possibilities.

[captain swoop]

I love the "reality / simulation" discussions!

As do many people.
ATM is not the forum for a general discussion though.
If someone has an ATM idea they want to define and defend then can they post it or I will close this thread.

[ryanmercer]

It's interesting to consider, we have only been transmitting radio for what, 120 years max? And, now we find our television is changing to digital, rather than analog. Other changes in communications are sure to follow. I believe very strongly that we are looking in vain, for the wrong things. And it's entirely possible we don't know what the "right" thing is yet.

The universe may be empty - or, it could be FULL of civilizations that use "x" type of communication of a type we simply cannot conceive - this year, anyway.

I always tell people like this. We are trying to listen to military encrypted communication with 2 cans tied together with string.

[xfahctor]

Perhaps you've watched The Matrix far too many times.



This is actually plausible, by not by means of what we know of physics, at least not yet. Perhaps the unseen dark matter is analogous to holes punched into card stock which then becomes a...

..punchcard on which messages are encoded.



Limited by lightspeed, however, that'd be one heck of a slow computer...

So does all of this say that space time is physical matter of sorts and that it's particles could theoreticly be manipulated in to repesenting 0's and 1's as a form of interstellar binary communication?