Many people here have been posting that interstellar cultures have to be benign, as if they were evil, they would destroy themselves. Similar to saying that cultures with nuclear weapons would have to be benign.
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Many people here have been posting that interstellar cultures have to be benign, as if they were evil, they would destroy themselves. Similar to saying that cultures with nuclear weapons would have to be benign.
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No reason they have to be, and to assume such bland motivations is, IMHO, foolish.Originally Posted by iamcanjim
Fact is, alien civilizations could have any set of goals and motivations we can imagine, and a great many we can't, as well. Besides, the whole "good" versus "bad" thing seems silly.
Here's a counterargument for the "benign" alien concept, though: like most species, humans have had to struggle to the top of the "food chain" here on Earth, to be the dominant species. We did so by being ruthlessly efficient hunter/killers. No other species on the planet is as inventive and dangerous as a human being, and we have the history to prove it. Our aggression and drive has been one of the pinnacle reasons for our success as a species, and it seems silly to me to believe that no other advanced species out there, living on some other world, wouldn't have a similar experience.
On the other hand, there is some comfort in the idea that we're the most ruthless, methodical, aggressive and violent species out there. While the odds of another species wanting to destroy us is increased, the odds of another species being able to wipe us out is much reduced.
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no one argues that we have to be "evil" to other species in order for us to stay on top of the food chain. it is essential. however, does that mean we have to be ruthless to our own species too? look at the animal kingdom, how many species out there would try to setup traps and trick their same kind into the traps? spiders are the master of trappers, but we never see they'd setup a web solely to trap another spider. have you ever seen wars between cats? have you seen a dog murders another dog?
there are many evilness within us are totally unnecessary and obstacles to advance technology. if there are advanced civilizations out there which went through a silimar evolution as we did, you cannot argue that they could've totally abolished the unnecessary evilness
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actually murder is found in the animal kingdom. for example, when a male lion defeats the head lion thus taking over his group of females(the pride)
he then goes around and kills all the cubs. Basically he murders the children.
(he does this by the way so the females go into heat again so he can create his own lineage)
Its very posible that an alien race technologically advanced would wipe out dif races they encounter to make room for themselves.
Order of Kilopi
Any hunter has to be ruthless, so adding this word is redundant to the description of hunter.
Early humans were okay hunters. - obviously good enough to survive. But our hunting prowess is not what made humans the dominant species on this planet. It was the domestication of plants and animals.
You've been watching too many Arnold Swarzenegger movies.You probably even voted for him!
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Order of Kilopi
Dominion of a global ecosystem by a single species is certainly based partially on aggression. You don't claw your way to the top saying "excuse me". However, there is no reason to assume that an intelligent race is beyond diplomacy either. Its all a balance, and it will be as variable within another race as it is between the races themselves.
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Now that everybody's made your argument for you, iamcanjim, I'm curious as to what motivated you to make one of your first (if not your first) posts an argument trying to tell everybody they're wrong. Why do you think that aliens won't be benign?
I think the Zetans, who want every Earthling to die, aside, most aliens wouldn't bother to trek across the galaxy for their entire lifetime just to blow s*** up when they got here. And if they did, we'd nuke the place (it would be described as "war against the invaders" but really it would rob the planet of any value to the invaders).
I'm not sure I buy into the sci-fi premise that anybody who has mastered interstellar space flight need not fear nuclear weapons (they're ALWAYS immune, why is that?).
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Maybe the aliens are just bored out of their mind and decided to go on a killing rampage for their own amusement... Like that movie "Mars Attacks"... They were immune to nuclear weapons too! Too bad not our music... Yet another reason to keep country music around (actually the song in the film was some sort of yodel but eh).
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My view of the matter is simple: The motivations, desires, and capacity for good and evil of extraterrestrials would all be precisely the same as that of humans.
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Which, in and of itself, shows a casual level of brutality, in the ability to domesticate animals for food, clothing, labor, etc. Not that I disapprove. *shrug*Any hunter has to be ruthless, so adding this word is redundant to the description of hunter.
Early humans were okay hunters. - obviously good enough to survive. But our hunting prowess is not what made humans the dominant species on this planet. It was the domestication of plants and animals.
Actually, I'm not that big a fan of his. And, no, I voted for Brooke Adams, not Ahnuld. 8)You've been watching too many Arnold Swarzenegger movies.
I'm not saying we are the most dangerous species out there. I'm not saying we aren't. What I am saying is that the idea that we are is comforting, in that it could benefit us if we ever do end up in conflict with another intelligent species. Again, there's no telling whether or not an ETI will be benevolent or not.
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Which is reason enough right there to be concerned. :-? We run the range from altruist, to enlightened self-interest, to outright nasty stuff.
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yea i agree they would do so, but the problem is that i don't think they'll harm their own species purposely
[edited for spelling]
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Mmm hmm 8)
*ahem* I mean, um, good stance on the issues. :wink:
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What about alien religeon? They may be advanced but what if they are still highly religious? Maybe the aliens would be missionaries and would try to convert us hethens, and if we refused, KABOOM. Not too likely though.
What's more likely though is when the aliens land and make peace, some religious nut goes and shoots one of them, and then the aliens declare war and destroy us all.
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Good question.
Isn't that the funny thing about our supposed saviors, the Zetans? Almost like they have Nancy's "messiah complex". :roll:
But, yeah, I'm with you on the "trek across the galaxy to blow stuff up" issue - unless they're really, really xenophobic, I doubt that'll be their primary motivation.
Because it makes the aliens far more advanced than humans. I think the concept is silly, myself - the peak core temperature of a thermonuclear blast is hotter than we believe the core of the sun to get. Combine heat/blast effects, EMP, radiation, etc., I don't see them as getting by.
Interesting series of books about an alien invasion of Earth, and motivations of various alien species, are the "Legends of the Aldenata" series by John Ringo (check out www.johnringo.com or www.baen.com - or hit your bookstore & look for "A Hymn Before Battle", "Gust Front", "When the Devil Dances", and "Hell's Faire"). Alan Dean Foster wrote a similar series (look for "The Damned" series), as well.
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My usual answer to aliens must be good.......
Tell that to the cattle!
In fact they might be all enlightend and peacful to their own species but that in now way implies they would view us with the same kind of resect.
Imagine exploring the jungle and discovering a new kind of primate... first there would be a lot of curiosity, you might trap a few for study. Now put your selfs in mind of the explorer who then discovers that the primates have nukes!
Order of Kilopi
Cute! I like her parting slogan: "I'll be back." =D>
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
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And perhaps the manifestation of their good intentions will seem to us to be aggression.
They may well recognize our governments and other such institutions to be detrimental to our improvement, and therefore attempt to break them down to make way for alien-assisted improvement of the human condition. We, of course, would only hear our governments screaming "They're trying to kill us all!"
The road to Kl'Exial is paved with good intentions.
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I say they'd have expansionist motivations. Call that evil if you like.
First, we have only one example of truly 'intelligent' life (in the technological sense) and that's us. So the first logical deduction is to look at how we evolved- and that was through cunning aggression.
Secondly, look at the main driving force behind social and technological change. Again, this is mostly military in nature. Even benign things like medicine often is born from war. Our most advanced technologies are almost purely military, at least from infancy. Space travel at all is a great example. Space is mostly military, with a few civilian things up there too. But those civilian things would still be off in the future if the military hadn't spent the bucks to make it happen to begin with.
It'd be hard to argue that anything has had a larger impact on humans than warfare. We're pretty good at it.
Then look at what we use space for. Early reasearch is giving way to resource exploitation. Resources need to be protected. And if there's a resource you need, say water, then the current users need evicting.
Which is about the only reason aliens would even have for coming here. We have a fairly useful mix of resources here. Well, that and according to sci-fi movies, humans go well with tartar sauce.
Traveling the stars for pure curiosity makes for boring TV, let alone reality. Even the Star Trek hippies had armed starships.
Lastly, we cant even get along with our neighbors without The People's Court. You expect us to deal well with aliens?
Order of Kilopi
While I completely agree that big aggressive space empires out for conquest just for the fun of it are very unlikely, what I think IS likely is something far more dangerous -- civilizations which destroy any other intelligent species they can find purely as a precaution. In other words, species who live by the Brass Rule: "Do unto other fellow the way he'd do unto you, and do it first".
While the idea is morally repugnant to us, it is very logical. It follows from three simple propositions:
1. WIMPS DO NOT BECOME TOP DOGS. Any species which has come to dominate its own biosphere will be tough, smart, adaptable, and ruthless when necessary.
2. THEY WILL VALUE THEIR OWN SURVIVAL ABOVE OURS. That follows from the laws of natural selection. Species do not survive by being self-sacrificing.
3. THEY WILL ASSUME SAME THINGS ABOUT US. And they would be right!
Try looking at human species through the eyes of another. Undeniably we are dangerous. We have a history of extreme brutality, especially toward anything we do not understand. We've been known to commit even more heinous acts when we felt, rightly or wrongly, that the existence of our family/tribe was threatened. Our technology improves very fast, making our military capability 100 or 200 or 300 years hence hard to predict. And just because the world's most technologically advanced nations are rather reluctant to use force today, there is no guarantee this situation will continue. Can anyone reading this claim with absolute certainty that 1000 years from now humanity, or some significant part of it, will not be led by a Joseph Stalin?
Given all that, why shouldn't any rational species treat us the way we would treat an extremely dangerous and mutable disease organism? We certainly would, if situation were reversed. And note that a species might be totally peaceful within itself, and still be perfectly capable of such genocidal action. We are not "kin" to aliens any more than Ebola viruses are "kin" to us. Morality is something human beings invented for dealing with each other. Morality toward other species (as in "animal rights") is a luxury humans can afford because no animal species can challenge us. If alligators had guns and were capable of improving them, they'd have very few advocates. Indeed, these advocates would be eaten out of proportion to their numbers. Altruism toward another species is not a good survival strategy. FYI, no animal is altruistic toward different species. Every symbiotic relationship in nature works only because each party gets more out of it than it puts in -- and symbiosis often turns into parasitism or predation when one partner grows sick or weak, and is no longer useful to the other.
And since the laws of survival of the fittest are universal (at least, no one yet came up with a plausible way for intelligence to arise WITHOUT competition), the above brutal logic will apply to any two intelligent species. The Brass Rule IS the most certain survival strategy. Moreover, even if some civilizations manage to become moral enough to see everyone as "kin" (even the species who produced Auschwitz and Jonestown), all it takes is for ONE civilization to embrace The Brass Rule, and it will immediately become the most certain survival strategy. If you love thy neighbor, or even harbor a few reservations about killing him, and the neighbor harbors none, you are evolutionary dead meat.
Which BTW solves Fermi's Paradox neatly. We are sitting on our perch singing like foolish birds, and wondering why no one is answering. Well, if the Galaxy is full of hawks, no one will. Or rather, our first answer will be an antimatter bomb.
Established Member
Another superb novel in this vein is “The Killing Star”. Authored by Pelligrino and….dab nab it, can’t remember his name.
A pre-emptive first strike is conducted against Earth by relativistic bombardment. Two humans are taken captive and ask the obvious question; Why?!
The invader responds…well, I can’t find the book right now, so I’ll paraphrase from memory;
“Why attribute to malice that which is readily explained by practical self interest? There was no hate or anger in our actions. What is the acceptable risk for the survival of one’s species? Ten percent? One percent? A fraction of one percent? We chose to err on the side of caution.”
I’ll admit to chauvinism regarding my own species. Nothing personal, just business. My species before all others.
Order of Kilopi
Yes, I read "Killing Star". I think it is one of the most frightening SF books ever written -- exactly because it is so plausible.
Newbie
Sorry. I always come across as overly aggressive, and the first post was written quickly. I was merely puzzled by the fact most posters here assumed that aliens would be benign.
I support my theory in this manner. In human history aggressive societies tended to be expansionist (sp?) and the individuals pushing the expansion tended to be the most aggressive.
Let us use the conquest of the aztecs in the 1500's. Which country was the most aggressive in Europe at the time? Spain of course. They had been annoying their neighbors etc. Note the Poles and English didn't destroy the Aztecs. And note that Cortes was not a typical Spaniard. He was unusually aggressive. The peaceful Spaniards were tending their farms back in Spain.
If aliens come to earth, it would have to be an expansionist race to get to earth in the first place. And the leaders of the contact expeditions would be unusually aggressive aliens, otherwise they would be back at Gamma Scorpius V, tending their quargs.
On another note, human societies expand because of need for resources or space. Rarely due human societies explore out of curiousity. Religions expand because the nature of religion is to expand or die. Peaceful explorers in the past tended to be clerics intent on expanding their religion.
So, if the alien ship appears in the sky, it will have one of two captains.
1. A hyper-aggressive Cortes type bent on conquest.
2. A possibly peaceful cleric type intending to spread its religion to us (possibly by force).
Edited for spelling
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that's the reason i think the odds of us spotting any slien spacecraft is almost nil
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We're a couple of centuries away from effective interstellar flight. In that time we will have the prospect of MAD hanging over our heads constantly. By the time we have interstellar flight, we may well have readjusted our mindset. The thought of agression will be tightly linked with being vaporized. We, therefore, will not be as aggressive and will have figured out other ways.
Spanish conquistadors and missionaries were five centuries ago. I think with another five centuries we may actually be different.
Order of Kilopi
Interesting topic.
But first, I think everyone needs to read the definition of "benign."
Speculation:
I think once we discover there are many inhabitants in this universe our self-perception as a species will upshift to include a "universal spirituality." Earthly religious differences will be cast aside upon our admitting that all life is made of stars. (Aside: Didn't Reagan address the UN saying something to this effect? And I believe the jist of it was along the lines of "protecting humanity from the evil aliens.") Personally, I think that's a silly idea; neither do I believe we'll have to ward off aggressive aliens nor do I believe "they're here to enlighten and save us." I think our species' aggression is most certainly due to our evolutionary roots in the animal kingdom, but because we have Mind and possess a cosmic species identity our animal-kindgom inclinations will become less desirable traits. That's not to say that spacefaring aliens won't be aggressive, since our only example of a spacefaring, albeit fledgling, species is one which retains many characteristics of "animals," but I imagine as we continue to unlock secrets of harnessing energy and how the universe really works our upshift in Mind and species-identity will bring about benevolence. If this is so, then I think any truly advanced aliens, ourselves included, will be benign.
Something else to consider:
The Physics of Extra-Terrestrial Civilizations.
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When we have colonies on mars there could be wars between our planets.
(See red mars by Kim Staneley Robinson)
The only way I can see global peace is by a single global goverment that has no elections and hence no sides. Personaly I dont think global peace is worth it at the cost of freedom.
Has there ever been a stage in humanities development when there has been global peace?
Established Member
Mars won't be self-sustaining for millennia.
America has elections and manages not to break out into war between the states too often.The only way I can see global peace is by a single global goverment that has no elections and hence no sides.
What would take the freedom away?Personaly I dont think global peace is worth it at the cost of freedom.
We've only truly had nations interacting on a global scale for the past hundred years. So in that hundred years has there been peace? No, but that's a very small sample.Has there ever been a stage in humanities development when there has been global peace?
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But space exploration is very costly in terms of resources. More likely than simple curiosity, the reason for roving about the galaxy would be to hunt for resources. If you have the technology to go that far in search of resources, swatting the ants currently in your way is almost a given. Especially if they get riled up and try to defend their little blue marble.
A bear takes the honey and hive despite the meager stings the bees leave on his nose.
Almost all human exploration has been merely to exploit resources, real and imagined. We've certainly had no problem with exterminating anything in our way. Applied to space nothing really changes.
And any developed race that came into contact with us would be more like a person encountering a monkey (at best). Neat pets, stick a couple in a zoo, but I promise we wouldn't let a monkey stand in the way of our progress. I don't see humans garnering much respect from any advanced civilization. I think we'd make amusing creatures to view from behind cage bars, nothing more.
Quite simply, if they were advanced enough for interstellar or even inter-galactic travel, they'd be too far rremoved from us primates to be anything more than a curiosity to them.
"Look Zorg, they use tools like Centaurian sea otters. Aren't they cute?"
"They taste good with a hint of lemon too."
Order of Kilopi
There's a really interesting article in this month's Mercury (the magazine of the ASP) on the topic of why aliens are most likely to be non-biological beings.
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