# Thread: Spiral Model of Solar System

1. ## Spiral Model of Solar System

Here is a way to present a simple model of the solar system showing the spiral paths of the gas giants in relation to the path of the sun around the galaxy, using the following parameters to represent Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune as spiral coils with radius and frequency/wavelength relative to their actual orbits. Any assistance in either referring me to such a model, or in building one would be welcome.

Code:
```Planet	Wavelength	Radius
Jupiter	1	1
Saturn	2.501	1.853
Uranus	7.110	3.680
Neptune	13.896	5.577```
Last edited by Robert Tulip; 2008-Oct-23 at 09:44 PM.

2. Attached is a rough schematic of the relative orbits and a rough superimposition on each other.
Last edited by Robert Tulip; 2008-Oct-23 at 01:47 PM. Reason: add second picture

3. Moved from General Science to Astronomy.

4. Thanks ToSeek. A spiral model is here. What I have proposed is actually a helix model, understanding helix as a three dimensional spiral with constant amplitude. A working model would show the paths of the planets along each line of the helix.

5. Robert, excuse my ignorance, but what are these models for exactly? Navigation? Observation?

6. Originally Posted by PraedSt
Robert, excuse my ignorance, but what are these models for exactly? Navigation? Observation?
Robert Tulip's first BAUT topic: Science and Astrology. Coincidence?

7. Originally Posted by PraedSt
Robert, excuse my ignorance, but what are these models for exactly? Navigation? Observation?
It is about observation. Two dimensional models show the spatial relation between the planets but do not incorporate their cyclic relations, as shown in the attached 3D model. This representation is helpful if we want to understand the solar system as a whole.

8. Originally Posted by Robert Tulip
It is about observation. Two dimensional models show the spatial relation between the planets but do not incorporate their cyclic relations, as shown in the attached 3D model. This representation is helpful if we want to understand the solar system as a whole.
Thanks Robert. But you know I'm going to ask you: how is it helpful in understanding the system?

9. Originally Posted by PraedSt
Thanks Robert. But you know I'm going to ask you: how is it helpful in understanding the system?
It is useful to incorporate time into models of space. This model takes the two dimensional XY plane ellipses of the gas giants and introduces the third Z dimension of movement along the vertical axis of the sun to represent the paths of the planets in space. It is a simplified model - in reality the Z axis is not vertical because the solar system plane is not orthogonal to the path of the sun around the galaxy. The model presents interesting questions in astrophysics. It can be analysed to portray the exact path over time of all objects in the system. For example, the path of the sun can be analysed against the overall helix structure to show how the position of the sun relates to a central axis line and to the centre of mass. It can be shown how far off a straight line/even curve the planets pull the momentum of the sun. If this model was the diameter of a coin the near star Alpha Centauri would be one hundred metres away. This is a model of our galactic environment.

10. Originally Posted by Robert Tulip
It is useful to incorporate time into models of space. This model takes the two dimensional XY plane ellipses of the gas giants and introduces the third Z dimension of movement along the vertical axis of the sun to represent the paths of the planets in space. It is a simplified model - in reality the Z axis is not vertical because the solar system plane is not orthogonal to the path of the sun around the galaxy. The model presents interesting questions in astrophysics. It can be analysed to portray the exact path over time of all objects in the system. For example, the path of the sun can be analysed against the overall helix structure to show how the position of the sun relates to a central axis line and to the centre of mass. It can be shown how far off a straight line/even curve the planets pull the momentum of the sun. If this model was the diameter of a coin the near star Alpha Centauri would be one hundred metres away. This is a model of our galactic environment.
You also easily forget that the planet's orbits are inclined with respect to the Z-axis, which means that there is also a periodic motion "up-and-down" along the Z-axis. So even more deviation from a nice spiral.

Also, the location of the barycentre of the solar system moves at the most 2 Rsun away from the centre of the sun, which in your coin analogue would mean the following:
Solar system = 6 1012 meter (Pluto's orbit) = 1 Euro (1 cm radius)
2 Rsun = 14 108 m / 6 1012 m = 2 10-4

This means that "our galactic environment" sortof "wiggles" at 0.0002 cm with the 100 m location of Alpha Centauri. Now, I have no idea what exactly you are trying to say here, but I seriously doubt that there is something significant here.

For sure, there is a wiggly line "left behind" by the Sun in her path around the centre of the galaxy, but the beautiful thing is that the barycentre of the solar system does no such thing, but has a very smooth path.

11. Lol!

Off topic: How do you keep coming up with these past threads? Encyclopaedic memory?

12. Originally Posted by PraedSt
Off topic: How do you keep coming up with these past threads? Encyclopaedic memory?
Originally Posted by ToSeek
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
I was an incoming freshman when ToSeek got his PhD at Google University. I had him as a TA first semester.

13. Suddenly, I have this irresistible urge to play with my Slinky.

14. Hmmm,
His link looks like our solar systems "current sheet" to me.

http://ulysses.jpl.nasa.gov/science/...01JA000299.pdf

Jim

15. I once spent a year doing something similar. For pretty much anything that has a market (adequate volumes), if you plot volume on the x axis, price on the y axis and time on the z, you get lots of pretty spirals. It's my own little economics ATM theory: one day I'll discover why spirals exist, and publish.
Yeah, right I hear you say..

Anyway, the only tiny flaw in my otherwise cunning plan, was that this presentation/model was completely and utterly useless in making money.

16. Originally Posted by PraedSt
.. if you plot volume on the x axis, price on the y axis and time on the z, you get lots of pretty spirals... the only tiny flaw in my otherwise cunning plan, was that this presentation/model was completely and utterly useless in making money.
The stars put on a show for free. The advantage of this model over economic models is that it is a permanent environmental feature which can be accurately plotted into the future.

This model reflects the planetary musical composition here. The notes on this composition are built from the positions of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune over 179 years with every fourth note a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction/unison. These notes can be mapped as vectors between the planetary helixes.

17. Originally Posted by Robert Tulip
The advantage of this model over economic models is that it is a permanent environmental feature which can be accurately plotted into the future.
Do you plan to do so, or are we just going to get the crude schematics of the initial articles?

I like pretty pictures.

18. 01101001, Robert was kind enough to explain earlier.
Originally Posted by Robert Tulip
This model reflects the planetary musical composition here.
You can make sweet music with this.

19. Robert, are you referring to Kepler’s Third Law which states that the cubes of the planets’ orbital semi-major axes are proportional to the squares of their orbital periods? Are you seeking something like the flawed Titius-Bode Law of orbital sizes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titius%E2%80%93Bode_law

20. Originally Posted by Centaur
Robert, are you referring to Kepler’s Third Law which states that the cubes of the planets’ orbital semi-major axes are proportional to the squares of their orbital periods? Are you seeking something like the flawed Titius-Bode Law of orbital sizes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titius%E2%80%93Bode_law
Hi Centaur, no, this is nothing to do with Bode's Law or Kepler's Law. It is just about finding more informative ways to depict the long term structure of the solar system. Thanks for your question.

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Join Date
Nov 2008
Posts
1,460
This is very intriguing...after learning the basics of Kepler and others mentioned above ... I have been under the impression that "chaotic" models have also been mentioned as possible models that could better explain the motion of the starry wanderers.

see:
Chaotic Motion in the Solar System

Rev Mod Phys
Volume: 71
Year 1999
page: 835

Author: Jack J. Lissauer

22. ## SSB Fourier Decomposition

The attached diagram adds to the previous depiction of the solar system’s main structure by illustrating how the Fourier decomposition of the solar system barycentre wave function maps to the sine curves of the four gas giants. The wave in the upper picture is composed primarily of the four waves in the lower picture. Groups of planetary conjunctions pull the SSB maxima forward and back in time as shown by arrows and ovals in the attachment. This is a purely mathematical illustration of the composition of the centre of mass. Minor apparent errors in the alignment of ovals and arrows in the attached picture should be readily corrected by more exact data.
Robert Tulip

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Posts
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Hi Robert .
I'm wondering how you create these wonderful diagrams .
Is it a product of the r=a.cos(wt+fi) relationships of our solar system or is it a product of integration of the movements of the planets within our solar system ?

24. Originally Posted by frankuitaalst
Hi Robert .
I'm wondering how you create these wonderful diagrams .
Is it a product of the r=a.cos(wt+fi) relationships of our solar system or is it a product of integration of the movements of the planets within our solar system ?
i'd bet that he uses a spirograph set.
when i was a kid, i made a LOT of diagrams of the orbits of the planets, but i just thought i was making some neat looking squibbles on paper using plastic gears with holes in them and a pencil.

25. In the Direction of Sun Q&A, a respondent (Hornblower) provided this picture of the solar galactic vector over 750,000 years, showing the direction and pace of movement of the sun against the galaxy. The vector in this picture could be presented as a helix, as discussed in this thread, made up primarily of the orbits of the sun and gas giants. Connecting the dots for the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction every 179 years, another helix is described that advances close to 30 degrees per instance and circles the vector about once every 2150 years, 300 times in the course of this 50 light year movement of the sun. A logarithmic scale could depict both the helix and the vector in one picture.

26. I have now built a prototype model of the solar system to illustrate the permanent relations between Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune in their 179 year conjunction cycle. On a flat board, three coils of wire illustrate the three planets, with 1.08 coils for Neptune, 6.08 coils for Saturn and 15.08 coils for Jupiter. The coils are held in place with 15cm vertical dowel sticks with holes drilled where the wire passes through. Wool is used to join planets at conjunctions, with planets made of polystyrene balls stapled to the wire. Orbit scales are Jupiter = 10 cm, Saturn = 20 cm, Neptune = 40 cm

This model produces a series of ladders similar to the DNA double helix. The Jupiter-Saturn ladder rungs are separated by 59.3 years and the JN and SN ladder rungs, in an extended model, are separated by 179 years.

This model shows the locations of these gas giants every 179 years, with the starting point advancing 1/12 of the circle of the ecliptic, as a permanent model. For example, it shows the positions of the planets after two current sets of conjunctions beginning in the following years.

Code:
```Year
-126	629
53	808
232	987
411	1166
590	1345
769	1524
948	1703
1127	1882
1306	2061
1485	2240
1664	2419
1843	2598
2022	2777```
A number of interesting astronomical features can be seen from this model. For example, the current JSN cycle that began in 1882 also includes the conjunction in 2022 in the other family. This 2022 event is spread over about six years, and is at the end of a family of conjunctions which was exact* in 769. The 1882 family was close to exact in 1524.
*JSN reached the same point within three days from 17-20 July 769.

The five SN points every 35.8 years mark five simultaneous helical families of JSN conjunctions, with the JS point drifting slowly against the SN cycle.

Stacking twelve 179 year periods on top of each other will reveal these slower Neptune cycles, with the twelve JSN ladder rungs on the triple helix forming a full circle around the ecliptic every 2148 years.

These bodies are the main influence on the distance between the sun and the system centre of mass. The barycentre can be included as a central dowel.

Uranus is not included because it is not part of this permanent cycle.

Wire, dowel, polystyrene and wool are crude materials to model the solar system. I would like to make an exact model using design software showing how these patterns develop over longer periods. This would make an excellent thesis topic for a university science student. I would be happy to assist anyone interested to pursue this fascinating project. I will send photographs of the model to anyone who asks by private message.

Robert Tulip

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4dsolarsystem.com has a simulated 20 month long exposure of the entire solar system.

28. Originally Posted by real x
4dsolarsystem.com has a simulated 20 month long exposure of the entire solar system.
Thanks, this is nice. The sine wave patterns of the planets illustrate their orbital periods, with Mars completing nearly one orbit, Earth 1.6, etc. The outer planets seem only to go to Uranus and not to include Neptune or Pluto.

Comparing to the 179 year model I presented above, the period shown at 4dsolarsystem.com is an extremely short picture of the overall system. By taking longer snapshots, and paring back to recurrent patterns such as the JSN cycle, we can examine the temporal structure of the solar system.

29. Reason
Text moved to previous post.

30. ## Chart formulae

Originally Posted by frankuitaalst
Hi Robert .
I'm wondering how you create these wonderful diagrams. Is it a product of the r=a.cos(wt+fi) relationships of our solar system or is it a product of integration of the movements of the planets within our solar system ?
Hi Frank. On the most recent diagram, the top part is from JPL data of the solar system centre of mass, while the bottom part is an excel spreadsheet as follows.

1. Enter
• A1: 11.8592
• A2: -1
• A3: =A2+1/A\$1
• B1: Jupiter
• B2: =SIN(A2)
• C1: 29.657296
• D1: Saturn
• E1: 84.323326
• f1: Uranus
• G1: 164.79
• H1: Neptune

2. Copy the formulas to all columns then copy down the spreadsheet for several hundred rows
3. Chart columns bdfh to get four sine waves with periods corresponding to the gas giants.
4. Add arrows and ovals and text use the miraculous excel draw function.
5. Print screen, paste into paint and crop.
6. Make sure jpeg size is within BAUT attachment limits, if not, select all and shrink.

Robert

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