Methane Sinks Ships?

[tuffel999]

So maybe the Bermuda Triangle is all caused by some sea farts........great.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...e_bubbles_dc_1

[Humphrey]

Triangleman....What did you do?

[planethollywood]

i was watching a repeat of DSV and it was an episode in the burmuda triangle, and anyway they had trouble with fresh water rivers beneath the sea floor that leak into the ocean creating columns of freash water to the oceon surface. thus shipping configured for salt water would sink like a stone when they hit the fresh water.

anyway it sounded alright at the time.. :roll:

[jokergirl]

I think I've heard that methane theory several years ago; never read anything about its credibility though.

Seems it keeps popping up every now and again, just like you only ever see the same episode in TV series you're not really following (that is courtesy Neil Gaiman, but it keeps happening to me!).
Also read an article about dinosaurs with cancer today, which I thought had already been discovered several years ago. Sometimes I begin to doubt science "daily news" websites. It's more like "Daily Olds"...

[Amadeus]

I think I've heard that methane theory several years ago; never read anything about its credibility though.

Seems it keeps popping up every now and again, just like you only ever see the same episode in TV series you're not really following (that is courtesy Neil Gaiman, but it keeps happening to me!).
Also read an article about dinosaurs with cancer today, which I thought had already been discovered several years ago. Sometimes I begin to doubt science "daily news" websites. It's more like "Daily Olds"...

I've seen this before as well. The theory as I remember it is that the methane disolves in the water lowering its density so ships need to displace more water to float. They did actualy test this in a tank and the model ship sank when methan was pumped into the water.

I dont know if this can apply to planes fly overhead as well.....

[Bawheid]

This has been around for a while, you either sink or know nothing, there are no reported near misses. Big ocean, relatively small ships, doesn't seem likely. As for the wreck in the North Sea, you can't find an area there without a wreck of some kind.

I would be interested to know the amount of methane neede to sink a model in a tank relative to the volume of water. These things don't always scale up.

[Amadeus]

The tank was about 4 cubic metres not very big. But the thing I remember was that it was an open top tank.

JUST THINK ABOUT THE SMELL!
You did notice the people around it looking a bit green.....

[TriangleMan]

First of all Humphrey I squarely lay the blame for the methane on all of our sea cattle. (moo) :wink:

IIRC in the past there was a similar Bermuda Triangle theory but the 'gas of choice' was carbon dioxide. Something about large bubbles of CO2 could sink ships and stop jet engines . . .etc, etc. I don't keep up with Triangle myths too much - I don't recall if that area of water has more 'disappearances' than any other body of water with similar traffic so I think the whole concept of a 'Bermuda Triangle' is a myth. What I can tell you is that I've never seen a marine insurance policy in Bermuda with a 'Triangle' clause so I don't think the insurance industry sees any significance to that body of water either.

David May is a computer specialist so it sounds to me like he and Joseph Monaghan just did some computer models of the methane hypothesis and saw that under some conditions large bubbles could occur. Whatever.

[Gmann]

I recall seeing something on Discover channel some time ago that addressed this issue. They showed that water with methane bubbles in it has a lower density, and any boats traveling through one of these areas when the gas is present has a much lower draft. There have been examples of boats lost in the 'triangle' that were found later, hundreds of miles away. The theory is that the boats encountered the less dense water, went under, and were carried off by the Gulf Stream. They showed 1 example of a Cigarette Boat that was lost near the triangle area, and was found a few years later off the coast of Iceland.

There have been several reports of ships disappearing without a trace in the triangle that actually went down someplace else, the wrecks were found, and nothing out of the ordinary was reported. That would probably explain why no trace was ever found off the coast of Bermuda. There have been lots of stories written about this terrible place, but I can't recall any recent reports of mysterious wrecks occurring out there. Since the Insurance Companies don't seem to be too concerned, I don't think we need to worry about it that much either.

[TriangleMan]

There have been several reports of ships disappearing without a trace in the triangle that actually went down someplace else, the wrecks were found, and nothing out of the ordinary was reported. That would probably explain why no trace was ever found off the coast of Bermuda. There have been lots of stories written about this terrible place, but I can't recall any recent reports of mysterious wrecks occurring out there. Since the Insurance Companies don't seem to be too concerned, I don't think we need to worry about it that much either.

I'd like to clarify something so there is no confusion between the Triangle and Bermuda itself. The Bermuda Triangle is a large body of water of which Bermuda is the northern 'point' with San Juan and Florida(?) being the other two. The Triangle is not really off the coast of Bermuda, the main area of the Triangle is hundreds of miles away. Bermuda itself is surrounded by reefs that extend a few miles out from the island, these reefs are quite treacherous and have claimed numerous ships since the 17th century, any ship hitting those reefs are easy to find as the water is not very deep.

So in summary:

Bermuda Triangle - open ocean, very deep water, would be very difficult to locate a sunk ship

Bermuda, the island - shallow reefs, sunk ship easy to locate, no ships 'disappear' from the reef.

[Amadeus]

Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "Loose lips sink ships"

I know cheap shot..........

------------------------------------------------------------
Why pay more?

[R.A.F.]

The "Bermuda Triangle mystery" was "solved" a while back. Highly recommended reading, an excellent book.

[Eroica]

Yeah, heard this theory years ago. It's even been mooted to explain the loss of aircraft. I remember some guy doing a demonstration on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Something to do with loss of lift due to the sudden drop in air pressure, methane being less dense than air?!

PS: Bermuda > TriangleMan > Bermuda Triangle > #-o D'oh! I just got that. I am so slow at picking up stuff like that.

[Bawheid]

I know I shouldn't ask this, but would a coal fired ship explode rather than sink, if suddenly surrounded by methane?

[Amadeus]

I think the ship would ship before the levels of gas in the air got great enough to expload.....

The whole thing about the sinking thing is that the gas mixes with the water to make it less dense

[TriangleMan]

PS: Bermuda > TriangleMan > Bermuda Triangle > #-o D'oh! I just got that. I am so slow at picking up stuff like that.

You can't be too hard on yourself you've only been here a month. That and it's only half the reason for my name.

[Kaptain K]

JUST THINK ABOUT THE SMELL!

Methane is odorless. As are ethane, propane and butane. The odor of natural gas (mix of methane and ethane) and LPG (propane or butane) is added at the refinery so that you can smell the leak. Otherwise, the gas could build up to asphyxiating or flammable levels before anyone became aware.

http://www.chemicalguide.com/Public_...ical%3DBaytown

[SeanF]

JUST THINK ABOUT THE SMELL!

Methane is odorless. As are ethane, propane and butane. The odor of natural gas (mix of methane and ethane) and LPG (propane or butane) is added at the refinery so that you can smell the leak. Otherwise, the gas could build up to asphyxiating or flammable levels before anyone became aware.

http://www.chemicalguide.com/Public_...ical%3DBaytown

It's Ross Gellar!!

[mike alexander]

I am not buying, tentatively, the density argument. Methane hydrate has essentially the same density as water ice. Methane is significantly soluble in water (especially near the freezing point), but only at extreme pressures (megapascals). By the time it gets near the surface of the water column the solubility is essentially zero. So the bulk density of water wouldn't be significantly affected.

It sounds as if the argument is closer to hitting the head of a beer a couple of hundred meters across. Obviously, a foam is much less dense than the liquid it's made from. But I don't know. The assumption you have to make is truly explosive phase change of a large volume of the clathrate to make a giant bubble (or column of fizz) big enough to swamp a ship, and the column would have to hold together during a rise of 500-5000 meters through the water column. That, I can't comment on.

The closest experiment I can think of is the reaction of a surface ship near a depth charge epicenter. Same general idea of explosive formation of a gas bubble under the water surface. Any surface ships of significant size ever been swamped by depth charges?

[tuffel999]

I don't keep up with Triangle myths too much - I don't recall if that area of water has more 'disappearances' than any other body of water with similar traffic so I think the whole concept of a 'Bermuda Triangle' is a myth.

Not a 'disappearence' thing but a LOT of shipping used to go down on Lake Superior, the Edmund Fitzgerald for instance, especially near Whitefish Point but those instances weren't really mysterious it was, most times, the horrible weather of the lake in winter.

Edit: Spelling as usual #-o #-o #-o #-o #-o

[LTC8K6]

There is no "Bermuda Triangle" as popularly described, so no explanation is necessary.

[TriangleMan]

There is no "Bermuda Triangle" as popularly described, so no explanation is necessary.

=D> I kind of wish more people would stop thinking about the Bermuda Triangle. Whenever I visit other places and people find out I live in Bermuda they sometimes bring it up. Everyone should instead think about Bermuda as a great place for a vacation!

(This could be you on a beach right now ===> 8) )

[Humphrey]

I agree, Bermiuda is a very, very beautiful place. Plus some great diving there too.

[Stuart]

Sorry-somehow this duplicated - could somebody delete this one)

[Stuart]

The closest experiment I can think of is the reaction of a surface ship near a depth charge epicenter. Same general idea of explosive formation of a gas bubble under the water surface. Any surface ships of significant size ever been swamped by depth charges?

Swamped - not that I know of. Blown apart certainly - there were numerous cases of surface ships moving too slowly that contrived to take their own strens off with shallow-set depth-charges. However, there is another thing here - a gorup of explosions known generically as "under-the-keel shots" . Here, the explosion is under the keel so the gas bubble contacts the hull. the effect there is the velocity of impact of gas to hull lifts the ship's middle up while her bow and stern remain.



The fun bit is when the bubble collapses. it does so equilaterally - that is all surfaces of the bubble collapse at equal speed. The catch is, the bubble is distorted by its contact with the hull and ithe water rushing into the collapsing hull forms a shaped jet that blasts through the bottom of the ship and out through the superstructure.



If you look carefully you'll see the bridge about to land in the water after being thrown far into the air.

[Jack Higgins]

The reason that the aircraft dissapeared immediately is that the methane rising up through the air is flammable, and was ignited by the heat from the engines. They just exploded in mid air...

[mike alexander]

Boy, some people just get better toys for the holidays.

I guess the question is if a bubble forms deep (clathrates are not stable unless at 300+meters) and rises to the top, is there enough time for it to come to equilibrium pressure (unlike the superpressure bubble from a shallow explosion as shown). If it does, I would think it just bloops.

Still... cool it with the boom booms!

[fingolfen]

The tank was about 4 cubic metres not very big. But the thing I remember was that it was an open top tank.

JUST THINK ABOUT THE SMELL!
You did notice the people around it looking a bit green.....

Actually, methane has no odor... the reason you can smell a gas leak is because they add dihydrogen sulfide to it...

[Musashi]

Natural gas originally had a pleasant smell added to it, but peope were actually leaving the gas on in order to make their house smell nice.. at least that's what I've heard.

I saw the methane story in my local paper today, interesting, but it mentioned mostly the North Sea, not Bermuda.

[NASA Fan]

There is no "Bermuda Triangle" as popularly described, so no explanation is necessary.

=D> I kind of wish more people would stop thinking about the Bermuda Triangle. Whenever I visit other places and people find out I live in Bermuda they sometimes bring it up. Everyone should instead think about Bermuda as a great place for a vacation!

(This could be you on a beach right now ===> 8) )

I think that I remember some controversy about that picture. Wasn't that picture taken in Hawaii?