let's assume the ETs do not find us accidentally during their space travel, that is, they discovered us on their planet, then send out UFOs to reach us. so what are they up to?
let's assume the ETs do not find us accidentally during their space travel, that is, they discovered us on their planet, then send out UFOs to reach us. so what are they up to?
i think for a civilization to be so advanced that is capable of space traveling, their citizens must not contain any evil. just look at our own planet and see how much time ,money, and life we've devoted to wars. in fact, the entire human history can be read as a warfare. if we can direct all the $$, time and life we spend on war to astronomy, medicine, chemistry, etc i think our civilization will be at least 5x or even 10x more advanced than what we have now.
I agree. I think that with knowledge comes the understanding that it is not just the well-being of our species that is important, but that the success of our species is intricately interconnected with the well-being of every other animal and plant species on our planet. This "natural law" likely extends throughout the cosmos.Originally Posted by kanon14
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
exactly. if we do not learn how to control our desires for the greater good of human civilization and the other species, it is very unlikely that we'll survive for another 5000 yrs
Another option for you to think about:
They find a planet whose primary sentient life has great potential, but for both destruction and peaceful expansion. They monitor and wait till it's obvious that this species is either going to wipe itself out or manage to get to the stars.
Then they have a choice: interfere and prevent the self destruction so that the segments fo the species that might grow to be more rational might survive or make contact and let them know that there is more life than they have previously believed and to make contact there are certian ways fo conducting oneself...
If there are multiple sources of intelligent alien life, then it will the alien population whose policy is to immediately annihilate other intelligent lifeforms that will prove the most successful and will take over most worlds. Thus, it is these particular aliens that are most likely to visit the Earth.
Darwinism is universal. Successful species are merciless to competitors.
I have never understood this theory that advanced alien cultures can't be evil. We on got to the moon with the help of former Nazi scientists who worked on the V2 program.Originally Posted by kanon14
Also if there wern't the fear that the russians would get to the Moon first I dont think America would have put so much money into gettting there.
So I personaly believe that an "evil" culture would progress faster into space than a "good" one. An evil culture would not spend years making sure that a system was safe before launching it. They would just stick some poor guy in it and blast off!
Your assertion that the scientists who developed the technology were Nazi's is unfounded. The government of Germany at the time was run by twisted and evil people - Many of the sccientis and laborers would have been killed if they had not done what they were told to do and in many cases their families were used as leverage against their performance.
The level of technology required to go from star system to star system is far more advanced than simple chemical rockets. It would require over coming the basic limits of physics as we now understand them - to get a wormhole to form the energy required is mor ehtan the surface outpout of our sun!
Any species that can do that is perfectly capable of manipulating any bit of matter/energy into what ever they need. They would have no need to be a "evil invader" as popular fiction would have you believe.
And to build such a technology, there would have to be a co-operative society. Slave labor works on only a limited time scale. It has ALWAYS (as far as our history has shown) become far to difficult to manage and maintain, to say nothing of the uprisings that would be inevitable.
Don't project our history onto the rest of the universe. Just because we are backward and savage doesn't mean we have to STAY that way and doesn't mean that other species would also be like us.
I don't think its so cut and dried. To assign such idealistic or cynical values to an alien intelligence without some comparative frame of reference is idle speculation of the worst sort. Particularly since the drive to put humans in space on Earth has been such a jumble of national pride, international competition and cooperation in varying measures, along with a healthy dose of ego and skill and blind luck. You cannot divide any spacefaring intelligent race into "good" or "evil" templates based on whether they achieved interstellar spaceflight. Each race that achieves spaceflight will arrive their by their own methods in their own time based on so many different factors that blindly assigning motive to their travels without basis is dangerously naive, whether by the starry-eyed assumption of being "seeking knowledge for the benefit of all" or by assuming the Darwinian "Survival of the strongest, winner take all" mindset. The reality is probably as chaotic a mix as what drives us.
Of course this omits all of the scientific and technical advances the Allies made that the German's didn't. The atomic bomb is just one example. Centimeter-wavelength radar that could fit in an airplane and detect submarine periscopes is another. Not to mention the invention of the first analog computers that were used for cipher-breaking. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Nazis were technically farther advanced than the Allies. The two sides just put their resources into different areas.Originally Posted by Amadeus
As for slave labor, it's not an efficient way of producing high tech. A lot of V-2s built that way failed to launch or malfunctioned because of the poor quality of the work or because of intentional defects (sabatoge) that the workers put in. Slavery may work (badly) for picking crops and other unskilled labor, but it's not the way to make advanced technologies.
As for the Russians, we could endlessly discuss whether or not they would have made it to the moon first if the Apollo program hadn't been such a high priority. Obviously, someone else would have made it there first if the Americans had given up on the "space race." On the other hand, there are those who feel one reason the USSR fell was because it ran out of money trying to keep up in the arms race (I don't necessarily think this was the only reason, but it couldn't have helped). Who knows, maybe they would have fallen sooner if they had pushed a more agressive space program?
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin
"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli
Hi, I'm new here.
I don't think you can simplify an alien's motives to good or evil intentions. The benevolence or malevolence of a species has more to do with why it went into space and it's level of resources when it reached our system.
Humanity has the technology for space travel right now, in multi-generational ships at sublight speeds, but when that ship reachs another world it would be very low on resources. They would be forced to exploite any resources in the system with or without the permission of any local intelligence. Not out of malice but of necessity.
Species with faster than light (if it is possible) capability would have access to more resources and would be more likely be benevolent.
Welcome unsapien. Just what we need, more Canadians.
I agree, of those launching, or attempting to launch at the moment there is plenty of debate on the motives of some of them, and definitely not a concensus on their benevolence.
I'am not saying any alien race that finds will be "evil"
What I am saying is that we realy cannot tell untill we meet some.
(but I think the experiance and benifits of meeting an alien race far outway any dangers that might be involved) In fact I think there might be mroe danger from the culture shock to worlds many religions than from any Death Ray Wielding Little Grey Men
The point about the Scientists working under the Nazis is that it was not my intention to say all the scientist working in germany under nazi rule were members of the nazis. But the programs that lead to the V2 were set up by the Nazi leaders. Also the Nazis started development on the H-bomb before the allies. I cannot imagine a "good" to use a simple term scientist happly giving hitler the h-bomb. There is actualy evidence I that a lot a scientists sabotaged the're own projects to slow down development.
The Point about the allies making progress is correct ( by grandfather was involved in the early radar experiments) but this was done in response to the nazis attacks.
I just made this point because I see it assumed a lot that any alien inteligence that can travel the stars must be good or for that matter evil.
We realy have no frame of reference. So lets chill and look to the stars. Because I have no doubt that we are going to have a lot of good experiences out there!
Ok thats all.... Please dont flame me
I think we are all saying much the same thing in different ways. No flaming required.
I remember reading a humourous SciFi story where aliens came to earth, made first contact, bought some animals for their Zoo, established an embassy and then simply ignored us. Three quarters of the story was about a zoologist that was hired by the aliens to take care of the animals while in transit to their home system and how the earth goverment made his life miserable when he came back, at one point the zoologist writes a book on his experiences on the alien ship and an alien literary agent buys the rights to publish the book! It's a real good story. Maybe that's what they could be doing
I would have to imagine that any aliens visiting us would be a mixed lot, just as we are. We've got good people, bad people, amoral people, and everything in between. Why would we assume that visiting aliens would all have the same personality type? As for the motives of the invasion director, well, probably also mixed.
Now that I've had a chance to think about it, I would be very suspicious about the motives of a species that traveled to our system. Because I can't think of any good reason for long distance space travel. I know that sounds strange considering everyone here including myself would probably jump at the chance.
But seriously manned space travel is very expensive and time consuming. Anything a man can do, a robot can do better. We went to the moon and then couldn't justify any reason to stay there. Resource mining of the planets would be cheaper,safer and easier by robot. We can study more solar systems by probe and telescope then by manned mission.
So aliens that came by for a visit may have done so because there is something wrong with the planet they came from. And that wouldn't bode well for us.
...they're shaking their cranial units in dismay over oriel36 and his backwards thinking? :wink:If there are advanced aliens visiting Earth now...
yeahOriginally Posted by Ikyoto
well i udnerstand that it's impossible to describe an alien civilization by using human terms; our language is incapable of explaining things we don't understand, as we've already seen in physics and astronomy. so when i'm saying they're "good" or "evil", i'm not saying there are such personalities for the aliens, but merely just the actions they perform.
For example, let's say the aliens do not need air (they don't breath). if they don't have enough knowledge about lives on earth, they could've done something that alters our atmosphere without even acknowledging the bad consequences of such action (that probably isn't a very good example but you get the idea). in that case the aliens have done something "evil" in our sense but their intention was not so.
now suppose on their planet, the aliens share everything with each other thus no private property, then they would not understand what "stealing" is. then they came to planet earth and used up half of the resources here to fill their spacecraft. again we would think they've done something "evil" but actually they don't even know they've done something horrible to us.
What my original question is what the aliens will do to us. Good or bad? i'm merely asking their actions but not their intentsion. the rephrased question should be "Would encounters with alien civilizations benefit us or harm us?" nevertheless i still think advanced civilization should contain no evil.
Well, while its a good idea to keep an eye on any aliens that stray our way, there are some good reasons for space travel. Just the overwhelming desire to do it probably. Also, if the species in question has gotten space travel down to an art, to a level where it isn't that difficult or time consuming for them, then why not go themselves instead of sending a robot, right?Now that I've had a chance to think about it, I would be very suspicious about the motives of a species that traveled to our system. Because I can't think of any good reason for long distance space travel. I know that sounds strange considering everyone here including myself would probably jump at the chance.
exactly. we don't send people to outer space only because we don't have the technology, but not because we don't have the motives. i bet there'll be many people here would be willing to jump on the craft if all it takes to travel some millions lightyrs back-and-forth is just a few months. and we do so is not becuase we want to conquer the entire universe, but to gain new knowledge of the universeOriginally Posted by Kebsis
I want to conquer the universe!Originally Posted by kanon14
Bow before your Emperor!
I guess what I am saying, is that what aliens do when they reached our system will depend on how they can get here. I don't believe faster than light ships are possible (not becuase of technical short comings, but just not physically possible). To me, that assumption means aliens coming into our system are coming to colonize and exploite resources. 8-[
In the remote (IMHO) chance that faster than light ships are possible then that takes the pressure of any space travellers to be forced to exploite every solar system they enter.
I will be happy to keep our first alien contact a long distance relationship.
I wouldn't be surprised if they winked at each other, and said: "Oh, yeah, we have a few of those too." 8)Originally Posted by SirThoreth
how may i be of your service, the Mighty One :-kOriginally Posted by Amadeus
Well it seems Morden already asked Ambassador Londo Mollari what he wanted
BRING ME PRINGLES AND SPRITE AND BEGONEOriginally Posted by kanon14
---I disagree strongly. Given our only example of intelligent life to draw extrapolations from, I think it's a safer bet that they would have 'evil'. I don't call tens of thousands of years of human development evil, so maybe it's a matter of definitions.think for a civilization to be so advanced that is capable of space traveling, their citizens must not contain any evil. just look at our own planet and see how much time ,money, and life we've devoted to wars. in fact, the entire human history can be read as a warfare. if we can direct all the $$, time and life we spend on war to astronomy, medicine, chemistry, etc i think our civilization will be at least 5x or even 10x more advanced than what we have now.
I'll further argue that just about all of the most advanced sciences we have come from the military and military excursions. Even strait exploration here was done by armed, primarily military forces.
So we lack any example of peaceful exploration to even draw the notion from. It's a utopian dream, my friends.
Without the military requirement for space based platforms, we'd be decades behind in space now. Commercial use of space may still be decades away if it weren't for military research that predated all other use of space.
Most of the medical miracles we see today for trauma victims stem from battlefield medicine, such as blood expanders and the like.
Also, before we go on about calling the military evil, don't forget that the military is the place where social change is tried out first.
The military was integrated racially and on gender lines long before the civilian world. We had fully integrated Army units when blacks still had seperate drinking fountains in your town.
Nuclear power is another example. On a purely civilain agenda, we may not have nuclear power even today yet. But the military footed the bill for the basic research that made it possible to use nuclear power for civilain use. It is also the military that protects those resources.
So I'd have to argue that the idea that we'd be more advanced without war is patently incorrect. We can trace our space program strait back to the Nazi's. And only through war with Germany were we able to get the scientists to work for us (and anything not carrying a bomb on it).
War is simply a driving force for development. The list of examples is way too long to list. GPS is a good one too. Without military uses for it, you wouldn't see them for sale in Cabela's for hunters or boaters.
War moves us forward faster than peace. Our history proves it. Why anyone else would be any different is just utopian wishful thinking. I know it seems to work for Star Trek, but this is the real world. Heck, even in Star Trek, every exploration craft still is armed. So not even in our space fantasies does peace do much of anything compared to war.
i understand your points and i'm not simply ignoring examples you gave. it's just that we should not be so closeminded and think every other advanced civilization would base their advancement on wars. i cannot prove my point (we havn't met any other alien civilization yet :-? ) but you cannot disprove my point either. i don't call it a utopian dream, since that should be our ultimate goal - to get rid of all the evilness in our society and eliminate war. it doesn't happen here does not mean it can't happen somewhere else in the vast universe.Originally Posted by SollyLama
i mean you're totally right on the driving force of advance technology, but should military be the legitimate reason? it has been so for the past 5000 years does not make it correct.
to me, if the price of advance development a civiclization has to pay is war, i'd rather live in cave than having seen millions of people killed under the advance development.