Relearning mathematics.

[Staiduk]

'Lo!

In Time Enough for Love R.A. Heinlein said:
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house."

Now - to be fair; that's not necessarily his opinion but that of his protagonist; Lazarus Long. And also to be fair; it's a rather harsh opinion.

However; the fact that I'm mathematically illiterate bugs me.

Not much - I can speak comfortably with Ph.D.s on a wide variety of subjects from history to English literature to any of a wide range of sciences. I'm no expert; I don't need to be - just interested, curious and knowledgeable enough not to look like an idiot.

Those areas in which I am expert require little or no mathematical ability; which may or may not be a good thing.
Where the math has a reason - a specific aspect of a larger skill - I can do the equations readily enough. (In Bosnia; I could calculate a windage/bullet drop conversion on the fly to hit my target square every time. The math would be dirt-simple for you folks; much harder for me though I do suggest you might find it a little trickier doing them whilst the other side is busy mortaring the daylights out of you. )

But all that said - having no ability with the most precise of the Human arts bothers me a bit. I'd like to sit down and start over - learn math.

My question is: Is there a specific tutoring website - an online math teacher - that any one here could recommend? I've looked at a few; but most are adverts for books or online courses. There are a few I've seen that cater to children; but none I've found yet that cater to a grown man who in his spare time would be able to start with fractions - I can almost do them, but with extreme difficulty - right up to calculus. Given the scientific/education base of this forum; I'm hoping someone might have a specific site on the tip of the brain they could direct me to.

Thanx!

[thorkil2]

My daughter says I'm the only person she knows who reads books on mathematics recreationally. That's not quite an accurate statement, but it's not far from the truth. I would suggest starting with a text book at some level where you already have some comfort and go through it line by line and do all the problems until you feel secure, then move on to the next chapter and next book. Many newer texts have online tutorial sites, and (if you aren't trying to stay under the radar) you could probably get help from a local community college. Most have tutorial workshops, and if you asked nicely, you might get some help without being enrolled. The easier route is just to take some classes.

[thorkil2]

BTW, Heinlein meant every word. I think he projected himself into every one of his protagonists.

[Paul Beardsley]

I agree with thorkil2.

I did find a maths website a while back, but it was very laborious to use, and I don't remember its name.

I have just started an Open University course in maths. This is proving to be extremely well run, with excellent learning material, but I don't think it can be accessed outside the UK. However, by way of preparatory material, the OU recommended a two volume book written by their own people, Lynne Graham and David Sargent. The title is "Countdown To Mathematics".

The first volume covers fractions, percentages, decimals and so on. It's very accessible without being patronising, and is clearly aimed at the adult reader. For instance, the statistical section discusses the effects of contraception on the population.

The second volume goes on to quadratics, trigonometry and logarithms, but doesn't cover calculus.

I'd recommend you try the first volume. See if you like the style, and if you do, get the second one, and take it from there. I honestly think you'd be hard pressed to find an online resource to compare with these books.

Whatever route you take, good luck with your studies!

[sirius0]

I recently had to revise matrices and found many useful secondary school books at op (opportunity charity) shops. And second-hand book stores. A good series of books that I used when I was doing my degree ( I never finished school and went to University at age 33) is the Teach yourself books. Namely Teach yourself Arithmetic, Teach yourself Algebra and Teach yourself Calculus. They aren't deep and if you go far enough you will have to drop them, but they do cover the initial derivations and learning very well.

[Tinaa]

Moved to OTB. Not a space or astronomy question.

[mahesh]

Not a specific site, Staiduk, but how about this:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4034408AAYVYdN
for added encouragement. It's much the same, what other BAUTers are saying here...

If, however, I do come across something more useful, will let you know.

edit:
depends on how soft/hard boiled you'd prefer, given that

....There are a few I've seen that cater to children; but none I've found yet that cater to a grown man who in his spare time would be able to start with fractions - I can almost do them, but with extreme difficulty - right up to calculus.....

Is this of any assistance?...just for a start
http://www.freemathworksheets.org/sitemap.php
personally, i wouldn't mind partaking some of it myself! pizza pi!

[megrfl]

I'd like to sit down and start over - learn math.

Go here and purchase the 8th grade Pre-Algebra Text book.

https://www.abeka.com/ABekaOnline/Bo...aspx?sbn=25763

A Beka curriculum is christian based, but regardless of your religious affiliation or lack thereof, math is math, and this text book is outstanding.

[mahesh]

Ha!
Whatever have I been thinking of? I recently joined Physics Forums, that should open some doors for you. There is a lot of info on Math there...for free!

Google it and it's the first one of 3.3 million, or have you been there already?

[Fazor]

Online Science and Math Textbooks has been in my bookmarks for years.

It has an assortment of free online texts. Problem is the specific topics are fairly random, and I personally haven't had much luck teaching myself this way (I don't think I'm the only one that would find reading a textbook front to back on their own to be daunting--plus for me, reading actual texts is much prefered to reading "online" texts).

So not a ringing endorsement, but may be of some assistance. Best part is that it's all free.

[nauthiz]

I just started reteaching myself some math a couple weeks ago. I ended up passing on using any online resources, and instead bought some used textbooks. I just felt that the quality of the explanations and problem sets were a lot better than anything I had found online. I think I concentrate better when I'm looking at dead trees instead of liquid crystals, too.

It turns out they're very inexpensive if you can find them at a used bookstore that doesn't cater to college students; I found a good calculus text for about $10, for example.

[eric_marsh]

I've found math to be somewhat challenging to learn. I think that's for a couple of reasons. First of all I've simply never been good at memorization and there is a fair amount of it that is necessary. Second, when something really bores me I find that my mind just kind of shuts off and goes to more interesting places. However when I've found an interesting application where I need the math I'm usually able to work through enough of it to get where I need to be. As for the memorization thing, that's something interesting. Often, while I may have trouble with short term memorization once I've worked on something and then come back to it later I find that it comes more easily. Perhaps by then it's had a chance to work it's way into long term storage.

[HenrikOlsen]

I have just started an Open University course in maths. This is proving to be extremely well run, with excellent learning material, but I don't think it can be accessed outside the UK.

I've taken a couple of OU courses, but had to stop because outside the UK there's not government grants to make the courses cheaper.
They sent the lectures on tape so I didn't miss them just because I can't get British TV.

[John Mendenhall]

BTW, Heinlein meant every word. I think he projected himself into every one of his protagonists.

I hope not.

[tdvance]

Not an answer to your question, but mathematics truly is its own language. Other subjects do have their jargon, but it's not near the level as in mathematics. That's why a person can walk into almost any college department's library, pick up a journal, and understand half of it. With mathematics, a person whose Ph. D. was in one branch might not understand much more than the first paragraph of an article written by someone who studied a different branch. (so mathematics has its own *languages* actually). With Mathematics, everything has prerequisites--sometimes I wonder if they are circular it seems that way sometimes, have to read two books simultaneously since each has info needed for the other to make sense.

'Lo!

In Time Enough for Love R.A. Heinlein said:
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house."

Now - to be fair; that's not necessarily his opinion but that of his protagonist; Lazarus Long. And also to be fair; it's a rather harsh opinion.

However; the fact that I'm mathematically illiterate bugs me.

Not much - I can speak comfortably with Ph.D.s on a wide variety of subjects from history to English literature to any of a wide range of sciences. I'm no expert; I don't need to be - just interested, curious and knowledgeable enough not to look like an idiot.

Those areas in which I am expert require little or no mathematical ability; which may or may not be a good thing.
Where the math has a reason - a specific aspect of a larger skill - I can do the equations readily enough. (In Bosnia; I could calculate a windage/bullet drop conversion on the fly to hit my target square every time. The math would be dirt-simple for you folks; much harder for me though I do suggest you might find it a little trickier doing them whilst the other side is busy mortaring the daylights out of you. )

But all that said - having no ability with the most precise of the Human arts bothers me a bit. I'd like to sit down and start over - learn math.

My question is: Is there a specific tutoring website - an online math teacher - that any one here could recommend? I've looked at a few; but most are adverts for books or online courses. There are a few I've seen that cater to children; but none I've found yet that cater to a grown man who in his spare time would be able to start with fractions - I can almost do them, but with extreme difficulty - right up to calculus. Given the scientific/education base of this forum; I'm hoping someone might have a specific site on the tip of the brain they could direct me to.

Thanx!

[tdvance]

I've found math to be somewhat challenging to learn. I think that's for a couple of reasons. First of all I've simply never been good at memorization and there is a fair amount of it that is necessary.

It's funny you should say that--people in other sciences sometimes claim that people take up mathematics because they "can't" memorize all that stuff and prefer to just be able to derive it.

There is some memorization necessary, though not near the amount in, say, History 101 (at least the one I took, where you had to know dates, names, everything, most of which I forgot after the final exam).

[tdvance]

I hope not.

I've heard it suggested Heinlein's protagonists took on qualities he *wished* he had!

[Fazor]

It's funny you should say that--people in other sciences sometimes claim that people take up mathematics because they "can't" memorize all that stuff and prefer to just be able to derive it.

There is some memorization necessary, though not near the amount in, say, History 101 (at least the one I took, where you had to know dates, names, everything, most of which I forgot after the final exam).

I agree. In math, there's sets of rules you must learn, but each "problem" can be solved with the same sets of said rules.

In other disiplines, you must learn and memorize each fact. That's one reason I was always awful at history, but generally scored well in math and science. The former you have to "just know" the stuff, the later you can rationalize to get your answer.

[NEOWatcher]

It's funny you should say that--people in other sciences sometimes claim that people take up mathematics because they "can't" memorize all that stuff and prefer to just be able to derive it.

I guess it's your background in how you were taught.
In college, I used to tutor people in the 1 semester calculus course. They were taught how to apply the various formulas.

Usually, all I would have to do is show them how all those rediculous complex formulas that all look alike came from. Then it made sense to them.

[Argos]

Itīs interesting that in Time Enough for Love Heinlein says "specialization is for insects". Itīs a bit contradictory, since it requires a great deal of specialization [at least for some time in life] to master mathematics.

As for your question, Staiduk, assuming you have high school completed, I would suggest starting with the notion of limits and progressing on to calculus. Higher difficulty levels [vectors, set theory, differential equations] will appear in the process.

[megrfl]

I agree. In math, there's sets of rules you must learn, but each "problem" can be solved with the same sets of said rules.

In other disiplines, you must learn and memorize each fact. That's one reason I was always awful at history, but generally scored well in math and science. The former you have to "just know" the stuff, the later you can rationalize to get your answer.

That is because math makes sense to you, it's clear and consise. It's probably easy for you, but are word problems easy for you? Frankly, if you haven't mastered mathematical word problems, then you have mastered math.

Such a small percentage of word problems are used in testing that students may pass math with a "B", but If I gave the same test, using only word problems, we have completely different results.

Word problems come first, then math.

[Fazor]

That is because math makes sense to you, it's clear and consise. It's probably easy for you, but are word problems easy for you? Frankly, if you haven't mastered mathematical word problems, then you have mastered math.

I'm the kid the rest of the class hated--I love word problems. Even easier than pure-number problems, because it puts the problem into a context. (Although, too often the context was some kid buying fruit with various forms of pocket change).

[megrfl]

I'm the kid the rest of the class hated--I love word problems. Even easier than pure-number problems, because it puts the problem into a context. (Although, too often the context was some kid buying fruit with various forms of pocket change).

haha.

Obviously, you do well with word problems because you understood what I wrote (please see my previous post.) Correction: If you haven't mastered word problems, then you haven't mastered math.

However, you're definitely not the norm.

[cjl]

I hate obviously contrived word problems. Useful ones, however, are my favorite kind of problem.

[NEOWatcher]

Correction: If you haven't mastered word problems, then you haven't mastered math.

I'll agree with that on. If you don't know how to take a problem and figure out where to plug things in, then you are just going through motions.

It was an important and useful lesson I learned in HS calculus. Most of the class was word problems, and you had to figure out how to apply them. We always got 50% credit for any problem if we could draw a valid picture even if we got the answer wrong.

Our teacher was even able to con some students into helping him dig a drainage ditch as a math problem. Not me, I just visualized a ditch.

Of course, this assumes they were well written problems.

[tdvance]

I hate obviously contrived word problems. Useful ones, however, are my favorite kind of problem.

I agree there--one of the worst was mentioned in one of Feynman's essays--he was reviewing math/science textbooks for adoption by the California school system. As California wanted math textbooks that emphasized science applications, the math books tried to present scientific word problems. An example that stuck out in his mind enough to put in the essay was:

You look through a telescope and see 5 red stars, 3 purple stars, 7 green stars, 4 white stars, and 8 blue stars. If a red star has x temperature, a purple star has xx temperature etc. etc. etc..... what is the total temperature in the telescope's field of view?

It made Feynman so angry he threw the book against the wall as hard as he could.

[Staiduk]

You look through a telescope and see 5 red stars, 3 purple stars, 7 green stars, 4 white stars, and 8 blue stars...

OK... I've no clue about math and astronomy;s not much better; if not worse - but even I could see the silliness there.

Truly - thanks for the advice folks, and the insight. It's interesting to see a simple question blossom into such a discussion. For much of it I had to crane my neck to watch it go zipping by waaay over my head; but in most cases I got the gist.

My idea was to do things the easy way: grab an online tute and study over coffee in the evenings. But after reading these responses, that isn't really the easy way is it?

And I realize I'm being foolish here. I'm within a fifteem minute walk of NAIT (Northern Alberta
Intitute of Technology), Ewan MacGregor college and the University of Alberta - why do it alone when I can make new friends that can help me with the rough bits? Like..say...why I should really care about what time two trains will pass one another if one leaves Calgary at three o'clock and the other leaves Regina at six and they're both travelling at eighty kilometers an houe except when they have to slow down for towns...



Cheers!

[Paul Beardsley]

And I realize I'm being foolish here. I'm within a fifteem minute walk of NAIT (Northern Alberta
Intitute of Technology), Ewan MacGregor college and the University of Alberta - why do it alone when I can make new friends that can help me with the rough bits?

That sounds like an excellent idea. I wish you the best of luck both with your studies and your broadened social life!

Like..say...why I should really care about what time two trains will pass one another if one leaves Calgary at three o'clock and the other leaves Regina at six and they're both travelling at eighty kilometers an houe except when they have to slow down for towns...

There actually was a question very like that in my course. Of course, in real life, you just check a time table!

Incidentally, this thread made me think about why I am studying maths. The reasons are partly career-motivated, but it also occurred to me that the popular science books which avoid maths do not give you the full picture. Now that I'm committed to learning maths, I realise it is not as boring, nor as difficult, as I thought it might be. Mind you, I'm in the very early stages so far.