Astrology = Garbage

[Disinfo Agent]

Con men usually have an excellent grasp on human frailties.

[Canis Lupus]

Con men usually have an excellent grasp on human frailties.

Too true, and astrology is probably without exception nothing better than someone sharing some general insights into life, which people can fit into something or other in their life.

That said, I can see a justification for astrological thinking in attempting to define human behavior and action according to some cosmic rules. There are general types of people to be found beyond culture and location, and to some extent it is seeking to explain that occurrence. Whether or not it is more useful than simply encouraging people to take responsibility for their own actions, do the best with their talents and respective circumstances, acting as reasonably as possible, is another issue. I can only see it as being in the remotest bit useful to the broadest of thinking, in trying to work out some type of objective scheme which places us within the overall order of the universe. That's a big ask and I doubt whether anyone I know who believes in astrology or practices it, is any better equipped than those who approach such questions through more established philosophical systems.

[HenrikOlsen]

I've been to both astrologers and psychoanalysts (in fact, having been born with clinical depression, I have spent most of my life in psychotherapy) and I can say that the average astrologer has a far firmer grasp of the human condition than the average psychoanalyst.

Though the techniques are somewhat similar, the average psychoanalyst isn't trying to do a cold reading.

[DrRocket]

That said, I can see a justification for astrological thinking in attempting to define human behavior and action according to some cosmic rules. There are general types of people to be found beyond culture and location, and to some extent it is seeking to explain that occurrence. Whether or not it is more useful than simply encouraging people to take responsibility for their own actions, do the best with their talents and respective circumstances, acting as reasonably as possible, is another issue. I can only see it as being in the remotest bit useful to the broadest of thinking, in trying to work out some type of objective scheme which places us within the overall order of the universe. That's a big ask and I doubt whether anyone I know who believes in astrology or practices it, is any better equipped than those who approach such questions through more established philosophical systems.

In my experience wackos who believe in magic or supernatural explanations for their own failure to take responsibility for their actions are not equipped to do much except eat and sleep, relying on others for the resources to do even that.

[Adrian Morgan]

Following the Bad Astronomer's recent (24/05/2010) article about Upsilon Andromedae, I engaged in a little hobby of mine and figured out what constellation the Sun is part of according to Upsilon Andromedan astrology.

It turns out that the Sun is part of the "Walking Pterosaur" constellation, as shown in the following image.



I've added this to a collection I started in 2008.

[north]

astrology is based on observation of the solar system and then observing the Nature of the behaviour of the people born at these moments , over a very long period of time

patterns and consistancy produces certain traits in people

no different from the farmers almanac really , which is based on long term observations

I'm a Libra , I have always been balanced in the sence that I look at both sides of the coin before I make a judgement , and this attitude of mine has been there before I found out what astrology was

[Gillianren]

Yes, but if you studied all Libras, they wouldn't all have the same trait, and if you studied the general population of not-Libras, a lot of them would. No study has actually ever shown a correlation of any kind unless it had serious scientific flaws. So, you know, that's better than anecdotal evidence.

[north]

but you are speculating that the same trait could be found in non-libras

and there has been a study of this kind , history of observations over thousands of yrs

hence why some have the traits or the charactoristics they have

lets face it , if the MOON causes tides , for example ,there is NO reason to think that the biology or living things are not also affected by the aligment of the positions of all the planets and moons as well , its just common sense , really

[Jeff Root]

North,

I'm surprised that you haven't learned by now that what you consider
to be "common sense" is usually such total nonsense that hardly anyone
bothers to criticize it. It is so loopy that it doesn't need to be criticized.
Some people have common sense, some people just think they do.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Gillianren]

Actually, there are lots of reasons. Like the fact that, as has been pointed out many times, the doctor/midwife has a greater gravitational effect on the baby at birth than the planet Jupiter. Yeah, the Sun and Moon can have influences. Beyond that, you're stretching.

And you know, I look at both sides of an issue before making a decision, too. I try not to leap into things based on emotion. Do you really honestly believe everyone with that trait can be crammed into one section of a calendar? If so, guess my birthday.

[north]

Jeff

the thing is Jeff , to think that the influence of our solar system has NO influence on the biology of the living things that live on our planet , but at the same time causes , at the very least tides is short sighted to say the least

[north]

really what I'm I really stretching ? just think about it in depth , think of the physical dynamics associated with all that is going on in the solar system

it makes no sense to think that it stops with the tides here on Earth


be real Gillianren

[Gillianren]

How about you provide some data? Some evidence? A mechanism? (As we've established, if gravity is the mechanism, as it is with tides, every human around during pregnancy and childbirth would be more important than anything but Sun, Earth, and Moon.) Anything which brings it into the realm of science and not pseudoscience.

[north]

there already has been over a few thousand yrs of observation

[Jeff Root]

The gravitational cause of the tides is simple. The gravitational
attraction between the Moon and the Sun and water on Earth's
surface causes the water to pile up by a few inches across a
hemisphere of the surface. As the Earth rotates the center of
the pile moves across the Earth. When the pile of water reaches
a shore it can't move inland, so it piles up even more to a height
of several feet.

Gravitational force of the Moon and Sun on any individual water
molecule are extremely tiny. Even the force on a whole swimming
pool of water is so miniscule that it can't be detected. The force
on an individual person is vastly smaller than the force on all the
water in a swimming pool. The force on a neuron in a person's
brain is vastly smaller than that. The force of Jupiter's gravity
on a neuron is vastly smaller than *that*. The force of Saturn's
gravity on a neuron is vastly smaller than *that*. And the force
of a star's gravity on a neuron is vastly smaller than *that*".
As Gillian said, the gravitational force caused by any person in
the room where the birth takes place is greater than that from
any celestial body except the Earth, because the person in the
room is so much closer.

And the Moon is always there. Its gravity is always there. It is
always pulling on you, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Same
with the Sun and the planets and stars. Their gravitational pulls
on an individual hardly change at all over time, and are nearly
identical for everyone in the world.

The effects of acceleration on a fetus when the mother sits down
or stands up or turns around are far greater than the gravitational
effects of any body except Earth.

The only way you can get other celestial bodies to affect the way
a person or animal thinks is by assuming the effect is magic. That
is, the effect cannot be detected in any way except for the change
in human behavior. You will get out of bed 20 seconds sooner on
August 17th than you otherwise would have, because undetectible
forces from Venus and Jupiter will cause you to do so. This can
be known by me because I am an expert in the subject. I know
where Venus and Jupiter will be on that date, and I know how
their undetectible forces influence people's behavior.

Common sense.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[north]

yet tides come and go Jeff

the Nova Scotia tides are obviously part of a cycle

Jeff its just generally guy , its not mean't to be an absolute , just a pattern of Human behaviour , observered , which is generally consistent , and aligments of the planets made sense , they coincided

life is an energy all of its own

they didn't know why but they just put two and two together and came up with an explaination

and for me I'm about as Libra as one can get

[Jeff Root]

Well, I'm an Aquarius. Aquarians don't believe in astrology.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Gillianren]

there already has been over a few thousand yrs of observation

Yup. There's hundreds of years of claims that bloodletting is good medicine. People will swear to you that homeopathy works. Phlogiston. The aether. There are quite a lot of things for which there's anecdotal evidence, and has been for years, but which in fact turns out to be wrong. Have you guessed my birthday yet?

[Van Rijn]

there already has been over a few thousand yrs of observation

And over that time, there have been a number of changing astrological systems.

north, it's time to look at the other side of this argument. The key one being lack of support when objectively tested.

[Strange]

I'm a Libra , I have always been balanced in the sence that I look at both sides of the coin before I make a judgement , and this attitude of mine has been there before I found out what astrology was

What makes you think that being a Libra is more relevant than any other astrological system? What year were you born: dog, monkey, lion? Is that more or less significant? Why? What is your blood group? Is that more or less significant? Why?

[Strange]

Jeff its just generally guy , its not mean't to be an absolute , just a pattern of Human behaviour , observered , which is generally consistent , and aligments of the planets made sense , they coincided

Except, when you do a real analysis of character traits and date of birth: there is no correlation.

and for me I'm about as Libra as one can get

Dunno. You sound like you have already made up your mind and are unwilling to consider alternatives. Wouldn't that make you more like a Taurus (or something)?

[HenrikOlsen]

I used to be really indecisive, until I changed to being a Leo, now it's not a problem anymore.

[Paul Beardsley]

it makes no sense to think that it stops with the tides here on Earth

Even when the evidence indicates that it stops with the tides here on Earth?

[R.A.F.]

...life is an energy all of its own.

Care to explain exactly what you mean by this??

...they didn't know why but they just put two and two together and came up with an explaination.

To be considered scientific, you must "show your work". How do you know your answer is correct, if you don't know how you arrived at it?

[LotusExcelle]

North - you need data. Can you find or supply any? In what way are the descriptions of Leo, Cap, etc different than a short cold-read? Are you familiar with the cold-read effect?

[HenrikOlsen]

they didn't know why but they just put two and two together and came up with an explaination

The problem is they added two and two and the result came out platypus. Then they made up an explanation.

[Strange]

The problem is they added two and two and the result came out platypus. Then they made up an explanation.

I am a Platypus, we share traits with a number of different signs: Aquarius, The Duck, The Milkgiver, etc.

[Disinfo Agent]

there already has been over a few thousand yrs of observation

The best observations we have made contradict astrology. If you refuse to deal with this, it is you, not the opponents of astrology, who is missing the lessons of history.

Another incorrect attitude in your posts is the underlying idea that showing that a hypothesis is plausible is enough to show that it is true. No, you need hard evidence first. Plausibility is just a zero-grade test; if your theory manages to pass it (and in the case of astrology even this could be contested), then you still have many other kinds of tests ahead of you before your theory can "graduate".

[ScienceIsReligion]

oh my oh my!
so much non-sense going on here!

1. science is nothing but religion. science is a bunch of beliefs. at the basis of what is commonly called "science" are a series (quite a lot actually) of completely unquestioned beliefs. the belief in the concept of causality for example. the belief in an objective "reality", etc.
those are just that: beliefs. they are postulations. that just as a general introduction. a lot more can be said about it. but not now.

2. i have studied math and physics. i LOVE science, especially physics and astronomy and i am educated in the religion called science. my mind easily works with abstract concepts and algorithms. it is very entertaining.
but i have realized science to be what it is: nothing but another religion. the most popular these days - for sure - but at the end of the day it is nothing but a bunch of beliefs! chew on that for a day or two or more.

3. on the debunker article regarding astrology:
your basic premise ("but they all operate under a very broad working assumption: there is some sort of force from the heavens that influences us here on Earth.") is completely wrong:
only people who don't fully understand astrology would word it that way.
astrology simply states that the PATTERNS observed in the sky and amongst the planets correspond with patterns observable in human behavior.
i would agree that the assumption that the planets "emit" forces that influence us is far fetched and probably "wrong" ("right" and "wrong" are also just concepts of the mind, beliefs in other words).
the basic correlation of patterns observed amongst astronomical objects and patterns in human behavior is something that can be observed and worked with. what can i say? i was VERY skeptical at first. but there simply are correlations between those patterns.
in other words:
this entire article is null and void because the premise is wrong. you have not debunked astrology. you have debunked your misunderstanding of astrology.

cheers.

[Paul Beardsley]

oh my oh my!
so much non-sense going on here!

1. science is nothing but religion. science is a bunch of beliefs.

...and so on.

Old and lame stuff, SIL. Must try harder.