Crime School

[Drunk Vegan]

I'm wondering, what is everyone's take on the current prison system (in America, if you live there, or in the country you do live in).

It seems to me like prisons are little more than educational institutions for perfecting your chosen criminal profession. They lock people in with, minimum, one other cellmate, sometimes as many as a dozen on bunkbeds because of overcrowding.

It seems kind of foolish when you consider that those people all have experience on what not to do when commiting a crime (since they got caught) and will share that knowledge with the cellmates that they become friends with. And even have a wingman when they and their cellmate get out and they inevitably turn to crime again because no one wants to hire a felon.

The way it is set up, solitary confinement is considered a punishment. Personally if I were in prison I'd do everything I could to get put in solitary for my entire sentence, but that's just me.

Is there any way the system could be reformed so that:

a) The prisons are not overpopulated so they don't have to cram people in with one another

b) The prisoners are kept separated so that they don't just spend their sentence training for their next crime

c) Prisoners are constantly supervised so that discussion about the finer points of criminal activity are not allowed

d) Implementing some kind of punishment system different from prisons altogether. Don't know what that would be.

It seems like taking steps in this direction would help prevent unsolved crimes from happening after prisoners are released. Of course in the case of light drug users (marijuana, etc) who make up the majority of the prison population, it's not really an issue. But I'm talking about career criminals who belong in maximum security facilities.

[geonuc]

Of course in the case of light drug users (marijuana, etc) who make up the majority of the prison population, it's not really an issue. But I'm talking about career criminals who belong in maximum security facilities.

I think you identified the problem. Quit locking up pot smokers.

[chrissy]

d) In some countries they do have the alternitive, chopping hands off , stoning and public floggings.
I would have public floggings on a weekly basis for thugs and small time criminals.
but in a more civilized state they just throw you in jail, some come out rehabilitated, clean from drugs and go on to lead a better life for themselves, you can't say that every criminal goes to jails and comes out fully trained to commit crimes by a so called master, because these so called masters have themselves been caught.
A lot of these small time crooks as you put it need to be jailed too as they have caused pain and hurt to someone or many people.
I think the main thing is in the prisons they have luxuries, this should be taken away from them and made to do more productive work , so that they would think twice about committing another offence.
As for solitary confinement, when a prisoner gets that that means they are away from everyone, eat alone excercise alone it will eat away at your soul. locked away in a small room about 23 hours a day!

[Neverfly]

If I participate in this thread...

I will get Banned FOREVER

There is like 500 different things Already in here I could fight about.

[Tinaa]

Many people are happy to build more prisons, yet hate spending more money on education. No, I'm not talking about more money to teachers. I think we should spend the money on more vocational programs. Most kids will not need Algebra II or calculus, they do need a course on business math. I could go on, but I really don't want to derail the thread anymore.

As you can tell, I'm pretty ticked at the Texas Legislature.

[HenrikOlsen]

In the US prisons are big business, with lobbyists working hard to get more people in prison so there will be a need for more prisons. (mandatory minimums and three strikes are just two such measures that from the outside looks like they are designed specifically to create a need for new prisons)

As such it's really hard to compare the US prison system with those of other countries and it's also difficult to discuss the US system from a law enforcement perspective since law enforcement was only one of the deciding factors in its design.

And to follow up on Neverfly's post, this is a likely button-presser subject, reread your posts twice before posting them.

[Drunk Vegan]

but in a more civilized state they just throw you in jail, some come out rehabilitated, clean from drugs and go on to lead a better life for themselves, you can't say that every criminal goes to jails and comes out fully trained to commit crimes by a so called master, because these so called masters have themselves been caught.

I never suggested any of them were criminal masterminds. I said they know * what not to do * - because they got caught. They know exactly what got them caught and how to avoid it the next time. And will pass along that hard learning experience to others so they don't make the same mistakes.

Hadn't thought of it, but whoever mentioned that prisons are businesses has a good point. It should not work that way. There should not be an * incentive * to lock away as many people as possible. That just leads to draconic laws and crooked prosecutors, judges, and DAs.

[Tog]

Make prison suck.

A few years ago, a homeless guy started a wild fire that ended up burning for weeks. His reason? It was going to be really hot that summer and he wanted to be in prison where he'd have air conditioning.

Prison needs to be considered a bad thing. Not a badge of honor among certain peer groups.

To ease overcrowding, Put people in prison that actually deserve it, but put the guy busted for drug use in his basement in a supervised treatment center.

Actually rehabilitate people that want a second chance. Give them a real skill, and a place to put it to use. There is no point in learning to fix cars if no shop owner will hire an ex-con. Open up a few spots on the state payroll for ex-cons to get jobs when they get out. If the guy works in the state motor pool for five years, and holds it down, he'll have a lot better shot at getting a job in the private sector than he did when was first released. Training isn't enough to overcome the stigma.

The story I'm writing at the moment (and for some time now) touches on this a bit. Specifically with two characters.

The first is a guy that plans to take over North America without anyone really noticing. Part of this plan included framing himself for murder so he could teach other inmates better ways to commit crimes. This gave him some minions when his conviction was overturned, as well as giving him a pool of M.O.s to choose from when he needed to do something illegal. If he needs to get some chemicals, he uses the method he taught to Bob the B&E guy. That way his crime fits the pattern that Bob has been establishing.

The other character is from a different Earth, where law and order is taken to extremes. All enforcers are required to attend three years of training, during which, they each compete in an average of 20 death matches. Every crime is punishable by death, and everyone knows that the enforcers are capable of killing an offender because to get the job, they had to kill people that may have been their friends. Investigations take place after sentencing. If it turns out the person reporting the crime lied, they are killed for making a false statement. This keeps the false statement making to a minimum. Other factors in the society mean that it actually has a very low crime rate.

I'm not saying that her way of doing things is correct, but I needed that perspective to see the way things really are here, and shine a light on them in a few places. For example: I know a police officer that had to kill a guy at a domestic abuse call. The suspect came out of the house with a shotgun and tried three times to chamber a new round to fire at the officers. The gun was loaded, he just wasn't pulling the slide all the way back to pick up a fresh round. The shooting was ruled justified, but the county had to pay out a good deal of money to the family of the guy that was trying to shoot the officers for "wrongful death".

[Salty]

Thank you, DV, for this thread.

Let me adjust my soapbox.

Now, if we didn't have too many rules, laws, ordnances, statutes, regulations and codes, we wouldn't have too many prisoners in existing prisons. Nor would we have so many prisons.

I really believe that nervous nelly government types in our general population, those people who say "There ought to be a law..." and then contact their city, county, state and/or Federal politicians, with a petition signed by other nervous nelly citizens to enact which law they think should be: are the root to a lot of our problems. I have thought this, for a long time.

I have seen a TV documentary by a local TV station about the over crowded jail, here. There must have been eight men in one cell, all in their underwear.
I watched, stunned. Why don't they have clothes on? How dehumanizing can you get?

And, when prison building bloomed in the eighties and ninties, I was scared for my state and for America. I have a clean record, except for traffic citations. I used to think criminals were bad people. Most of them can be bad. But, I have read of so many laws being passed, which criminalize ordinary human behaviour, I doubt Ft. Worth's, Texas' and Congress' wisdom.

Why doubt their wisdom? Hey, if you criminalize everybody in the country, you:
A. Won't have enough prisons.
B. Everybody will be on the criminals' side.
C. Nobody will sign up for law enforcement except the worse kind of people (more bad than the real criminals).
and D. The nation may well dissolve into either an anarchy or a military tyranny, to prevent the anarchy.

In the meanwhile, we get cute things like the leash law. Pets in fenced in yard must be on a leash. Well, I never. After a few years, I put my dogs on leashes in the back [fenced in] yard. Immeadiately, a city law comes out that it's cruel to leash a pet, and pets in back yards must not be on a leash.

This is my home town, so go easy on your comments, OK?

Anyway, how do I close? This is not the America I pleged allegiance to, as a young man, much less as a child. The land of liberty I see as being suffocated under a meaningless mess of unnecessary codes, rules, laws, regulations, statutes and ordnances. I see too many prisons, and not enough hospitals. I see street populations growing, as rules are put into place, to forbid federal housing to felons. I see American politicians who do not represent Americans. I see a government of the people, for the people and by the people being washed down the drain by internationalists in American political offices. I see my county breathing its last as a free nation.

I'm a night watchman. All I can do is guard the body. The cooling body of a nation whose government was of the people, for the people and by the people. Sold out by two misbegoten congresses in a row.

Bite my tongue. Kick away my soapbox. Why bother.
Guard the body.

[HenrikOlsen]

This thread is not a soapbox and will get closed of you guys keep treating it as one.
Rational discourse only.

[Fazor]

In the US prisons are big business, with lobbyists working hard to get more people in prison so there will be a need for more prisons. (mandatory minimums and three strikes are just two such measures that from the outside looks like they are designed specifically to create a need for new prisons)

As such it's really hard to compare the US prison system with those of other countries and it's also difficult to discuss the US system from a law enforcement perspective since law enforcement was only one of the deciding factors in its design.

I whole-heartedly disagree with the notion that we are arresting and subsequently incarcerating more people for the hidden purpose of supporting lobbiest interest and intentional creation of need for new prisons.

Some factors you have to consider when looking at the explosion with inmate populations are:

1. Tech advances; increased ability of law enforcment to catch criminals, and better training on evidence collection which leads to higher conviction rate
2. Increased focus on "white collar" crimes, again increased capability to detect/prosecute these crimes
3. Population growth; while the number-per-100 (normal method to measure inmate population growth) has increased (1.8% for 2006-2007 according to BJS*), the population also increases, making the overall number of criminals grow more than the incarceration rate suggests.
4. Poor economy traditionally sparks increase in crimes

*Statistic from this page.

To address the OP's issues/opinions; yes, some criminals enter the prison system, and "refine their craft" with the other inmates. Some criminals enter the system and take advantage of free education and work-release programs. Some inmates "reform". Some don't. You can't over-generalize the issue to the point of calling prisons "Crime School".

One cell per-inmate with restricted communication and heavilly monitored activity at all times is an extreemely unrealistic goal. You'd have to have militaristic, solitary-confinement style imprisonment, which many would find unnecessary or even unconstitutional punishment for the average offender.

[HenrikOlsen]

. . . which many would find unnecessary or even unconstitutional punishment for the average offender.

How can life imprisonment for stealing a doll be considered necessary? (three strikes)
If that's not a law intended to fill the prisons instead of solving problems I don't know what it is.

[Drunk Vegan]

IMO the biggest problem is that private companies are allowed to own and operate prisons - for profit.

Not only does that provide lobbyists every incentive to get the harshest possible laws on the books, it also makes conditions inside those prisons entirely subhuman because the owners will want to cut costs as much as humanly possible to keep profits up.

If corporate-owned prisons were to be made illegal it would be much harder to pass the kinds of laws that deal severe punishments to minor offenders and make things illegal which really should be civil matters where the defendant is subject to fine or community service.

[geonuc]

How can life imprisonment for stealing a doll be considered necessary? (three strikes)
If that's not a law intended to fill the prisons instead of solving problems I don't know what it is.

I have to agree with Fazor on this point. I see little evidence that lobbyists for prisons are responsible. More likely, it's a misguided 'law & order' mentality that seems to have gripped the country, leading to a low tolerance for any criminality at all, particularly repeat offenders. No matter the third strike is for a petty crime.

[Fazor]

I have to agree with Fazor on this point. I see little evidence that lobbyists for prisons are responsible. More likely, it's a misguided 'law & order' mentality that seems to have gripped the country, leading to a low tolerance for any criminality at all, particularly repeat offenders. No matter the third strike is for a petty crime.

Exactly my thoughts. For starters, few states even have a three-strikes law. California's is the most well known, because it's also the least well written. The wording is that three serious convictions = "three strikes". They seem to have defined "serious" as in a felony charge.

The real problem is that their law also reads that, for instance, petty theft (e.g. shoplifting) which is normally a misdemeanor becomes a felony if you've had any prior felony theft, burglary, or robbery convictions. That law was written prior to "three strikes" with the intent of cracking down on repeat theft offenders.

When three strikes was written, they failed to go back and nullify the other repeat-offender initiative, inadvertently making the new law even harsher than it was intended.

Far be it for me to discuss California politics (especially here) but you cannot use that as an example of the overall American criminal justice system.

[tdvance]

Steadling a doll sounds like only one strke to me--I don't know of anybody who went to prison for life for stealing a doll and nothing else.

[Salty]

I have to agree with Fazor on this point. I see little evidence that lobbyists for prisons are responsible. More likely, it's a misguided 'law & order' mentality that seems to have gripped the country, leading to a low tolerance for any criminality at all, particularly repeat offenders. No matter the third strike is for a petty crime.

I go along with the "...misguided 'law & order' mentality...". I guess every society has people like that. I'm no longer that way.

[Salty]

Exactly my thoughts. For starters, few states even have a three-strikes law. California's is the most well known, because it's also the least well written. The wording is that three serious convictions = "three strikes". They seem to have defined "serious" as in a felony charge.

The real problem is that their law also reads that, for instance, petty theft (e.g. shoplifting) which is normally a misdemeanor becomes a felony if you've had any prior felony theft, burglary, or robbery convictions. That law was written prior to "three strikes" with the intent of cracking down on repeat theft offenders.

When three strikes was written, they failed to go back and nullify the other repeat-offender initiative, inadvertently making the new law even harsher than it was intended.

Far be it for me to discuss California politics (especially here) but you cannot use that as an example of the overall American criminal justice system.

Texas has a law saying words to the effect: the third same misdeamor becomes a felony. I think it sucks. It's also scarey that legislators pass something like that. Bite my tongue.

[sarongsong]

IMO the biggest problem is that private companies are allowed to own and operate prisons - for profit...

...and the horses they ride in on:

June 1st, 2000
...To be profitable, private prison firms must ensure that prisons are not only built but also filled. Industry experts say a 90-95 per cent capacity rate is needed to guarantee the hefty rates of return needed to lure investors..."It takes time to bring inmate population levels up to where they cover costs. Low occupancy is a drag on profits."...In addition to the companies that directly manage America's prisons, many other firms are getting a piece of the private prison action...
corpwatch.org

March 5, 2008
...The detention of immigrants is the fastest-growing form of incarceration in this country...some fourteen thousand people were in government custody for immigration-law violations [2006], in a patchwork of detention arrangements, including space rented out by hundreds of local and state jails, and seven freestanding facilities run by private contractors...up by 79% from the previous year...
eristic