Apollo Validation Missions

[pvicente]

I've been reading the forum for a while and I noticed that one of the points raised by many hoax proponents is "Why won't NASA send a mission to take some photos of the landing sites?".
I've been thinking about this and I wonder, how would this mission work? I can only imagine two ways to make it feasible, either it is done at an incredibly cheap price, or there are other benefits to the mission that will be enough to make up for the costs.
But enough speculation from me, what do the proponents of these "Validation Missions" think? How could NASA send a probe to the landing sites while making the costs so trivial that they wouldn't impact their budget?
And by the way, what sort of controls would there be to make sure that the data couldn't be tampered with?

[pzkpfw]

Don't forget that the HB's often also think "they did it then so with all that great technology we now have it should be really cheap" - and that is part of why they think such a mission would be "easy".

[BigDon]

Senior Vicente,

The people you would be trying to convince don't operate on things like evidence. Gut feeling is what they go with. If it's too hard for them to figure out then its just impossible.

[LaurelHS]

HBs like to move the goalposts on this issue. I talked to one who insisted that all of SELENE's cameras had mysteriously failed when it reached the Moon (she said she read an article about this, but couldn't produce it of course), and after people gave her links to the excellent photos and video from this spacecraft, she said that they weren't good enough and the US government is keeping people from taking high-resolution photographs of the Apollo landing sites.

[Joe Boy]

I'm missing something here for sure. Why would NASA waste money on a validation mission in the first place?? If the people who believe we never went there in the first place saw evidence of a validation mission, who is to say they would believe it anyway. Who cares what they believe anyhow?

[JustAFriend]

Plop down a lander with a camera beside the Apollo11 landing site and they'd yell:

"PHOTOSHOPPED!!!"

[nomuse]

Hoax Believers are talking out of the wrong side of their mouth on this one. They want to make a talking point about how it would be "easy and cheap" to do (which it isn't). And they pretend that the data collected -- excuse me, photographs taken -- would be somehow both necessary and sufficient to convince independent observers. The majority of independent observers seem convinced by the existing evidence. The Hoax Believers have demonstrated their ability to ignore any new evidence brought to their attention as fast as it is brought up; there is no reason to expect that evidence #997 would suddenly be convincing.

[Stuart van Onselen]

Quite apart from the cost, the peripatetic goalposts, and the evidence-blindness of HBs, being reasons not to bother with a "validation mission", there is one more factor:

I doubt NASA gives a damn about HBs and their demands. For NASA to even mention their existence is far more attention than they deserve. (A privately run website, dedicated to debunking this rubbish, is an entirely different thing.)

All the Apollo astronauts have ignored them, apart from Buzz Aldrin, who was provoked, and his family threatend, by the stalker-like insistence of one Bart Sibrel.

Lousy Apollo Hoax movie ticket: $4
Even worse Apollo Hoax book: $10
Getting your butt whipped by a man smaller than you, and more than twice your age: Priceless.

[Tedward]

I would go as far as to say that IF there ever was enough loot gathered by HB banking incorporated and they could actually find enough people to get on board (not literally) a private mission, two possible outcomes.
Photo evidence clearly shows planted items.
Sudden catastrophic failure of the craft with the camera, outside influence blamed.

[Larry Jacks]

If NASA did it, the HBs would claim it was faked to continue the cover up.
If ESA did it, the HBs would claim that they were bending to US pressure.

What if someone else spent the money to mount such a mission, say Russia, China, or India? I suspect the HBs would claim some new conspiracy.

NASA is planning on launching the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter later this year. It'll have resolution good enough to image the landing sites with the larger artifacts being a few pixels large. They aren't doing this to convince the HBs because that's a lost cause. They're doing it to map the moon in greater detail than ever before in the search for possible ice and for a future return to the moon.

[Tedward]

Not forgetting the power of the net. All praised as the fountain of all knowledge. I believe the latest is the inability to land on mars with a chute? With well founded research like that on the net, this is not going to go away. Even when they come around to the fact and slope off quietly into the ether someone will step into the shoes.

[Gillianren]

All the Apollo astronauts have ignored them, apart from Buzz Aldrin, who was provoked, and his family threatend, by the stalker-like insistence of one Bart Sibrel.

Well, I believe several of them have been harassed by him. But still.

[Larry Jacks]

I believe the latest is the inability to land on mars with a chute?

I have not heard this one but in some ways, it may be true. The air on Mars is only about 1% as dense that Earth's, so even though a parachute can slow you down quite a bit, you'd still be moving pretty fast if you used the chute all the way to the surface. From memory, the mission profiles I remember have the chute opening while the vehicle is still going at supersonic speeds to quickly slow the vehicle. IIRC, the rover missions and the Phoenix lander were still descending at approximately 100 KPH when they separated from the chute and used airbags/rockets to do the actual landing. Using the chute all the way to the surface would've probably resulted in destroyed equipment and an increased possibility of the chute fouling the wreckage.

[Tedward]

Think it was used as a point for another fib in the official landing of Phoenix? Although there were other devices used as well. Thinness of the atmosphere already noted elsewhere.

[Stuart van Onselen]

Well, I believe several of them have been harassed by him. But still.

I just meant that Buzz was the first astronaut to give him what he deserved, as opposed to the others who just ignored him. I guess that was why he got so aggressive with Buzz - Trying to force him to respond.

Backfired a bit - I just wish that blow would have knocked some sense into the shameless fraud.

[Stuart van Onselen]

I recall The BA mentioning the difficulties of landing human-sized payloads on Mars. The air is too thin to use for braking, but just thick enough to mess with rocket-exhaust fluid dynamics.

[stutefish]

Wait, wasn't the mission of the Apollo project to validate the Surveyor missions?

[Swift]

Weren't Apollo 12, 14, 15, 16, and 17 the validation missions of Apollo 11? They certainly validated that man could land on the moon.

[Count Zero]

Plop down a lander with a camera beside the Apollo11 landing site and they'd yell:

"PHOTOSHOPPED!!!"

xkcd

[Glom]

Apollo validation missions? They would be Apollos 7 through 11 which validated the ability of the spacecraft and all things supporting it to carry out ever increasing portions of its mission.

What are they talking about?

[Joe Boy]

Apollo validation missions? They would be Apollos 7 through 11 which validated the ability of the spacecraft and all things supporting it to carry out ever increasing portions of its mission.

What are they talking about?

Hmm, he's right . . .

[gwiz]

...either it is done at an incredibly cheap price...

Just to remind you, the NASA history office commissioned an author to write a book debunking the hoax theory, cost was $15,000, and when word got out, the deal was cancelled as a waste of public money.

You cannot get any sort of space mission for less than $15,000.

[Grand_Lunar]

Think it was used as a point for another fib in the official landing of Phoenix? Although there were other devices used as well. Thinness of the atmosphere already noted elsewhere.

JarrahWhite uses this in his "Marsfaker" videos.

His main sources for his claims are a skydiving company and Ralph Rene.

[Tedward]

JarrahWhite uses this in his "Marsfaker" videos.

His main sources for his claims are a skydiving company and Ralph Rene.

That's the fella. Had another root around to check I hadn't dreamt it and I came across it on an Loose change thread that linked to his vids.

[joeyvangel]

There is no need for a "validation mission" NASA has all the validation it needs in 600 plus pounds of lunar rocks stored at the Space Center in Houston. All they have to do is what ALL science does. Share the evidence.

Rather than share this lunar booty with the scientific community NASA selfishly keeps it from the scientific community.

What good does 600 plus pounds of lunar material do when NO one can study it? Why dont they want other scientists not associated with NASA to study it?

Maybe NASA doesnt want anyone to study it?

[John Jones]

NASA has shared it.

[slang]

But not ALLLLLLl of it!!! CONSPIRRUCY!!!!ONEONEeleventyeleven

[Van Rijn]

Maybe NASA doesnt want anyone to study it?

From here:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/...ototheMoon.htm

This could not have been faked. These rocks have grains easily visible to the unaided eye, which means they cooled slowly. To have made these materials synthetically would have required keeping the rocks at 1100 C for years, cooling them slowly at thousands of pounds per square inch pressure. It would have taken years to create the apparatus, years more to get the hang of making the materials, and then years more to create the final result. Starting from Sputnik I in 1957, there would not have been enough time to do it. And, you'd have to synthesize several different types of rock in hundred-pound lots.

And, the results would have to be convincing. All I did to get the moon rock specimens (on loan) was write in and sign an agreement to keep the materials secure when not in use. NASA had no control over any non-destructive tests I might do when I had the specimens. I could have, for example, zapped the rock with X-rays to get its chemical composition.

(emphasis added) Yeah, NASA definitely doesn't want anyone to study the lunar samples.

In the future, you might want to do some research before making these assertions. But, that's up to you. From here, though, it's pretty amusing.

[Neverfly]

There is no need for a "validation mission" NASA has all the validation it needs in 600 plus pounds of lunar rocks stored at the Space Center in Houston. All they have to do is what ALL science does. Share the evidence.

Rather than share this lunar booty with the scientific community NASA selfishly keeps it from the scientific community.

What good does 600 plus pounds of lunar material do when NO one can study it? Why dont they want other scientists not associated with NASA to study it?

Maybe NASA doesnt want anyone to study it?

As John Jones just said, NASA does share it.
As far as the Moon Rocks go, those are immensely valuable so not just any Joe Shmoe can walk in and pick one up, but that same Joe Shmoe can be granted access to study them if he approaches studying them properly.

And as far as documentation, NASA seems to have shared everything it has, in spite of the fact that HB's seem to use it against them in every way possible- usually by nonsensical means.

NASA even shares photos like the supposed face on Mars and Bigfoot on Mars regularly, even though I'm sure they are well aware that some people are going to suffer from pareidolia.

[joeyvangel]

From here:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/...ototheMoon.htm


(emphasis added) Yeah, NASA definitely doesn't want anyone to study the lunar samples.

In the future, you might want to do some research before making these assertions. But, that's up to you. From here, though, it's pretty amusing.

You may want to read your link? I dont know what type of scientific study that is?

Nice try but of the 800lbs collected by Lunar misions, almost 700 lbs is in two nitrogen vaults unavailable to the scientific community.

Feel free to post a NON NASA peer reviewed journal of the lunar rocks.

Go ahead, post a link to a peer reviewed journal NOT authored by NASA.

We'll all wait...and wait...and wait...