Established Member
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...view-of-africa
A good look at environmental degredation in Africa. I thought what was particularly telling was the massive expansion of that diamond mine in Angola over that last 18 years. What do you guys think about it?
Order of Kilopi
Pix!The natural wealth of Africa has been plundered over the past 35 years, as illustrated by a new atlas of satellite imagery...a few of the thousands sent back to Earth from the U.S. Landsat satellites since they were launched starting in 1972...
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...And people say that colonialism is over.
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like it or not, there will always be a lower of people concentrated in certain areas of the world. right now, it's the people that live in Africa that make up a good chunk of that lower class. but some day they might wake up and start to beat the rest of the world at their own game.. in a couple of hundred years, Europe or North America might be the slums of the world, and Africa will be where all the wealth and power is located.Originally Posted by Disinfo Agent
...And people say that colonialism is over.
Order of Kilopi
Oh, there are plenty of lower class people in Europe and North America, too. Perhaps one day they will wake up.
Established Member
With 2 corporations owning most of the mass media outlets in the US, I wouldn't look for that any time soon.
Order of Kilopi
From the article:
So the rainforest is laced with roads, but it's still untamed? Just what do they have to do to this rainforest in order to tame it then? Teach it to sit and beg?Roads now lace the untamed tracts of the rainforest in Congo...
Of course, whether or not the rainforest is tamed is a moot point when the side of a denuded hill slides down and crushes your village and your cousins.
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i guess you didn't get what i was saying..
Established Member
Sorry but blaming modern Africa's ills on colonialism is like giving Charles Manson an excuse to murder some more folks.
Africa is a basket-case because of their corrupt, and undemocratic governments. For heavens sakes, even Mandela has not spoken up about a) Mugabe or b) Mbkeis stupid psuedo-science bull about HIV not causing AIDS. African leaders have a very odious habit of not being able to criticise eachother...because that would take away the old chestnut excuse about "colonialism".
So they let hundreds of thousands and maybe even millions die through stavation and disease. Nice continent - happy i dont live there.
Last edited by Jetlack; 2008-Jun-19 at 02:11 PM. Reason: spelling
Order of Kilopi
Yes, some day they might "wake up" and magically install rule of law, property rights, honest elections, respect for learning, and meritocratic social advancement.
Somehow I think all this takes more than just "waking up".
Order of Kilopi
On the bright side, Angola and Mozambique are two of the fastest growing economies in the world, with figures around 25%. Also, Mozambique seems to be getting serious about AIDS prevention and treatment. Furthermore, mobile communication experiences a boom in the continent.
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Like I said (with irony): "and they say that colonialism is over". Newsflash: the West is still running the show in Africa today. You can blame them for the basket cases and the corruption you see.
Established Member
Africa is continent with nearly a billion people living in it.
With annual per capita GDPs varying from over $14,000 to less then $200.
You are generalising.
Order of Kilopi
The way Robert Mugabe does, for example.
Order of Kilopi
We all know what the West could be doing to help breaking the vicious circle of poverty and ignorance, which are the real plagues in Africa [opening western markets to African farmers, for instance]. It could also nudge the continent in the right direction by helping the efforts of the emerging intellectual class - there are respectable artists, writers, journalists in Mozambique, Angola, Egypt, South Africa, etc. But more often than not we see this class being suppressed in the name of western interests there. To fingerpoint the occasional western puppet in Africa as the sole responsible for the situation [and indirectly label the African people as lazy, corrupt and not deserving of salvation] does not shed light on the issue.
Established Member
They are sovereign nations. It is up to them to decide which foreign corporations they feel represent the best value when investing into their economies, whether that be mineral extraction, oil, agriculture etc....
You cannot blame that on colonialism. Capitalism or globalisation perhaps, but that is a whole other issue.
Problem is the more Western commentators there are reinforcing the idea that they (Africans) are still "poor victims" of colonialism the longer large parts of Africa will remain a basket-case. The perceived retroactive guilt felt by many in the West is doing more harm than good.
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Carpet bombing is outlawed, unfortunately.
Established Member
True, but unfortunately that disparity you mention is aided because the more successful African nations such as SA are not using their leadership to rein in crazies like Mugabe. Or sorting out Sudan, or a number of other conflicts on the African continent.
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As the present national borders were artificialy created by the Colonial Powers then yes, I would say they are to blame.
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Order of Kilopi
On post #16 you said they [the former colonies] were sovereign nations, now you want SA to chime in...
As for the lastest Doodler comment, I appreciate your black humor [no pun], Doodler, and it really spices this board. But I know you´re aware that it is only wishful thinking. Their problems are the West´s problems, and they won´t disappear. Remember our #1 public enemy was forged in the slums of Sudan.
Order of Kilopi
Excellent example: Mugabe dared to challenge the might of the West (mainly the U.K.) What happens? International embargo, soaring inflation, starvation, social unrest, etc., etc. The usual.The way Robert Mugabe does, for example.
Call it what you like, but please don't make me laugh. It's up to them?! Most of those nations are in the hand of international institutions controlled by the West, like the World Bank and the IMF. They set the agenda, not any national sovereignty.
And then the West has the gall to turn around and accuse the Africans of being backwards!
You are right about that. I won't deny that there's more to the story, besides Western cynicism.
Order of Kilopi
Gallows humor. Africa is a problem without a solution because it suits the interests of no one in power to create such a thing. Believe it or not, the West is better suited by the preservation and continuance of strife and conflict in Africa, because look at what is becoming of the world now that Southeast Asia is not only recovering, but prospering. If you think there's a resource crisis on now, wait until Africa picks up a burgeoning middle class.
There's a little something that I don't think has quite settled into the minds of too many idealistic Westerners just yet that is currently kicking the commodities markets of the world square in the genitals. There really isn't enough to go around for everyone. Prosperity on the scale that's been enjoyed by the US and Europe comes at a significant cost to the rest of the world's ability to succeed, because our ways of life are so resource intensive that the world can barely sustain it for just us. Seven billion people living an American or European lifestyle would shatter the infrastructure of global civilization in a few weeks because of the astounding level of resource demand it would generate.
It sucks to say it so coldly, but those nations in the "First World" gained their way of life at an incredible cost to the rest humanity. For those of you with the privilege of sitting at a computer enjoying the fruits of your ancestors utter contempt for the rest of the world, I'd suggest you swallow your pride and consider how life could have been if it were you on the bottom. Fate isn't sympathetic to the losers in a cultural conflict, and we haven't figured out how to generate enough resources to let everyone prosper, so you'd best stop whining about how unfair life is to the losers and make darned sure you keep on winning, because today's losers won't give a rat's butt about you if you let the tables turn.
Established Member
Doodle has a point. I'm seeing it right now. A father was an engineer, who owned his own home and had 3 children when he was in his mid-30s was more wealthy in the 50's/60's/70's than his son would be in the 90s/00s who also has three children, in his mid-30s, an engineer and yet rents a two bedroom townhome.
I would worry about the environment of Africa. It will grow back after the miners leave.
Established Member
Argos,
"On post #16 you said they [the former colonies] were sovereign nations, now you want SA to chime in..."
Where is the contradiction in that? Yes, SA should use more of its influence to put pressure on mass murderers such as Mugabe. There is zero contradiction between that stance and the fact that African nations are sovereign.
If we followed your logic then there would be no UN, no WTO, no IMF etc etc
Established Member
Disinfo Agent,
"Call it what you like, but please don't make me laugh. It's up to them?! Most of those nations are in the hand of international institutions controlled by the West, like the World Bank and the IMF. They set the agenda, not any national sovereignty."
Those organisations provide aid and funds to those countries which need it the most. I am not a huge fan of these global organisations, particularly the UN, however if we got rid of them those African nations would get alot less funding and development aid.
I guess you are more comfortable with the Chinese model of harvesting African resources without putting any humanitarian conditions on that aid.
But frankly listening to your polemic one could easily imagine one is listening to Mugabe. Just dont expect me to agree with you, as we are obviously from complete opposites of the political spectrum.
"And then the West has the gall to turn around and accuse the Africans of being backwards!"
I called them basket-cases, not backwards.
Established Member
Wow more guilt than you can shake a stick at :-)
Order of Kilopi
Doodler, Jetlack, with all due respect. If you had your way, the world would submerge in chaos. I know that today's economic woes are a real, practical, issue for you, especially those of you living in the US, and maybe you´re not in the mood to talk about problems somewhere else.
But it seems that your thinking assumes that the world economy is a closed system, and wealth cannot be created, which contradicts the very foundations of modern western societies. Your rationale is based on oil economy, that, while real and thriving, is not the only option for the homo sapiens. See the efforts of some countries [including mine] to steer away from oil, or at least reduce its importance, struggling to generate wealth within a matrix other than oil. Think of the alternatives. We are the elite. It´s up to us to do the deep thinking. I´m talking about the long term, and you seem to be willing to get problems solved by tomorrow morning.
If wealth cannot be created in Africa, it cannot be created in anywhere, including within western nations, with serious implications for our welfare and stability.
Last edited by Argos; 2008-Jun-20 at 03:34 PM.
Established Member
Argos,
I'll let Doodler speak for himself, but I dont disagree with anything in your last post. All i was saying was I'm tired of the colonialism excuse from African leaders. Zimbabwe is a perfect example of why its not valid to blame the regions ills on colonialism. It was doing fine 15 years ago; the bread basket of Africa, and one man alone has destroyed what was one of Africas few tangible success stories.
Western commentators who reinforce that cololonial victimhood excuse are only providing more fuel for the next generation of Mugabes.
Of course we need to primarily help them with sustainable development, less handouts, and help them maintain good governance with minimal corruption levels. It needs a combined effort but giving them excuses for failure is not part of the solution.
Order of Kilopi
it would be a good start..
yes- there are poor people and there are rich people. the wealthy and powerful got that wealth and power because they earned it over the centuries and millenia. some people might not like HOW it was earned, but it was earned. our modern western way of looking at things might try to make us feel guilty for being at the top of the pile- but SOMEONE has to be at the top. it's the way we are wired as a species.
someday, the people on the continent of Africa might very well "wake up" and get organized like the evil colonial European superpowers did and start taking over and imposing their way of life on the rest of the world. but, honestly, i don't see that happening any time soon. much like the Middle East isn't going to be a peaceful place because of a few thousand years of animosity amongst the various groups, Africa will probably never be seen as any sort of a global superpower since they have largely been kept in a tribal mindset and lifestyle as the rest of the world has passed them by. it's too bad for them- but that's life.
but that's not to say that individuals from Africa can't make a better life for themselves, and, by extension, their people. but i don't think we should give up our status at the top of the pile out of guilt over events that got started thousands of years ago when all of humanity was just a bunch of roving nomads that lived off the land. our people clawed their way to the top, and they can claw their way up, too.
Order of Kilopi
Darwinism does not apply to global affairs, and to life in society. It would be a perfect chaos. That´s why there are laws. Imagine the bully next door clawing his way through your lawn because, well, he might like to be at the top, in your beautiful house...
And I´m glad some members are conformed with life-as-it-is, for the problems of Africa are here, the UN is here, the IMF is here, and they won´t disappear.
Last edited by Argos; 2008-Jun-20 at 09:42 PM. Reason: Typos
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