Punishment reform?

[tdvance]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,367013,00.html

Boy faces charges for drawing a picture of teacher getting shot.

Hmm--I wonder if I'd get in trouble if I were a child today and someone saw my picture of a teacher with horns and fire all around him....

In any case, paddling (not beating) students in school was eliminated in most jurisdictions because of the psychological harm to the student (which means in a prior generation, nearly everybody must have grown up insane....) We have discussed the merits/dismerits of corporal punishment on these forums before, plenty of people on each side. Still, if we don't stop some behaviors fast enough, they become problematic and you end up with school shootings and such, so something should be done. It used to be paddling, the things like after-school detentions, time-outs, etc. replacing paddling, I deduce (on thin evidence) to be ineffective because schools are resorting to arresting students as the new replacement, more and more often.

The question is, is arresting and charging a student for drawing the picture causing the student more or less psychological harm than simply giving him one or two swats and sternly telling him to do this no more? I think the arrest is worse--and there is no solid evidence but, you know, school shootings weren't such a big problem in 190x as they are in 200x.
Society often goes in circles, or to use another anology, the pendulum swings both ways. Well, you know my opinion, time for this one to swing back to the paddling (and I agree with the non-paddlers on some things--make sure teachers are well-trained and supervised--we want students to remember what they did was not allowed, not to be harmed). But even aside from my opinion, the pendulum may swing back anyway--probably will. (request we be careful to avoid religion and politics--both of which are part of the debate, just not here).

(Note--regarding the beating in Florida, i think charges were appropriate there. If they were younger and presumed ignorant, a paddling might have been more effective.)

[captain swoop]

Paddling? What's the difference between 'paddling' and beating?
When I was at school they hit you with a cane a blackboard ruler or a training shoe. Our ol 'Tech Drawing' teacher used a 'Flexicurve'
All it did was breed resentment. It never stopped us.

If anyone hit my son with anything I would call the police.

[The Supreme Canuck]

All I'm going to say is that hitting a child never teaches them anything. It's abuse, pure and simple.

[Tinaa]

I got paddled every year in school - usually more than once - through the ninth grade. Didn't do much good, but didn't hurt me either. Before doing something stupid or against the rules I had already decided it was worth what ever punishment I got.


Except the time I got suspended for drinking on the bus on the way to a volleyball game. Three days suspension is heck on a GPA. The punishment included being kicked out of NHS, all sports, name withdrawn from Who's Who, zero for all the work I missed in class and a few other things. I'd rather have had a paddling!

[tdvance]

well, that's the problem--paddling is "abuse" but arrest and jail aren't--I'd say, do the former to make the latter unnecessary. As for it not teaching a child anything--I certainly learned not to do certain things! Paddling was banned in my school when I entered the 8th grade (high school was grades 6-12). By the time I was in the 9th grade, the new 7th grade class was the worst behaved of the three I'd seen, and several teachers said they were the worst of the many they'd seen. To say it doesn't teach them anything---I'd love to see real proof of that, since I've seen plenty of evidence of the opposite!

Also surprised someone would not know the difference between paddling and beating. That's like, what's the difference between a fender bender and a fatal accident? finding a quarter on the sidewalk and keeping it, versus finding a bank bag containing a lot of money and keeping it? etc. There's a difference on the planet I live on!

[Kebsis]

Well I think you're comparing apples and oranges here; saying that these 'zero tolerance' policies are a replacement for corporal punishment, whereas I believe the two have little to do with one another. I do not know where you are from, but where I live, 'paddling' students has been outlawed for decades, but these crazy zero tolerance policies only really came into effect (in my experience anyway) after Columbine, and picked up steam after Sept. 11. But just because arresting students for ridiculous reasons should be curbed, that doesn't seem to me to have much to do with beating the kids (which in my opinion should also be barred). I also feel that school shootings are not as common as you make them out to be (or I should say, as common as the media makes them out to be).

[Larry Jacks]

Applying corporal punishment actually required the school administration to apply judgement. Zero tolerance policies are in place to eliminate the need for judgement. This is why zero tolerance policies are so popular - God forbid that anyone have to make a decision!

[novaderrik]

Applying corporal punishment actually required the school administration to apply judgement. Zero tolerance policies are in place to eliminate the need for judgement. This is why zero tolerance policies are so popular - God forbid that anyone have to make a decision!

they aren't afraid to make a decision- they are afraid of what the kid's parents and their lawyers will think of that decision.
i have a theory that the same parent's that don't think their precious perfect little misunderstood ADD afflicted kids should get paddled once in a while when they get out of line are the same ones that buy those same kids a new game for their PS3 every time they go to Wal Mart just so their precious perfect special little perfect children won't make a scene while they are in the store and make the other parents think they neglect those precious perfect kids and thus lower their self esteem and thus feel like they aren't the best most precious most smartest kids to ever exist.

[Kaptain K]

Those same kids are the reason I prefer doing my shopping at 4 am! During the day, not only do I have to be at the top of my game to keep them from running into me (believe me, 90% of the people on this planet bounce), but I need earplugs to protect what's left of my hearing!

[mugaliens]

Boy faces charges for drawing a picture of teacher getting shot.

Aggression is in a boy's (and to a lesser extent a girl's) biological nature. We watch Lana Lang as a sophomore in High School pulling a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick to a thug in the Kent's barn, which impales him on a pitch fork, then scream bloody murder when a sophomore draws a picture of someone impaled on a pitchfork...

It's the paranoid educators who're clueless.

I shot squirrels and rabbits when I was a kid, like, in third grade. We added them to stews.

These days, if I were to have shared that in show and tell like I did back in third grade, I'd be flagged by the teacher and principle, suspended, and required to undergo psychoanalysis.

I think the most ironic thing is that millions of years of evolution culminated with humans coming out on top of the food chain, that teachers push evolution six ways to sunday in the schools, then they're the first to scream bloody murder when the kids in their classroom exhibit certain tendancies associated with the millions of years of evolution that resulted in the children in their classrooms.

I know not all educators are this psychotic/paranoid/duplicitous, but give me a break! Where and how did the ones who are fail logic 101?

[Tinaa]

You know, I suppose we should let fist-fights go on until half the school in involved. We can also let little hellions disrupt class so that no on can learn a thing. Let the kid stand up and yell f-you to the teacher.

No, it is the parents that raise hell when their precious little babies are disciplined. They know their child could not, would never misbehave in school, because they are perfect little angels at home. Oh wait, the parent is so rarely at home that they have no idea that their kid is failing math. They never attend parent - teacher meetings. They never answer the phone.

In my high school guys drove pickups to school with rifles hung in the back window. Never had a problem with school shootings.

The world has changed. The 21st century is going to be age of lawsuits. Yeah, educators spend lots of time covering their butts for fear of lawsuits. We are even told not to touch the kids just to be safe.

All the above has happened or is happening. When is the community going to realize throwing 30 kids in a room with one teacher is not easy and expecting all those natural aggressive tendencies to stop when the teacher opens her mouth to speak.

If any one has a better idea on how to manage a school, run for school board. Better become a teacher so then you too can work with both hands tied behind your back.

[tdvance]

I shot squirrels and rabbits when I was a kid, like, in third grade. We added them to stews.

I actually only shot rabbits myself, and not for stew, but because mom just worked too hard on her garden for that wascally wabbit to come and freeload! (freeloading is what I was for!) Now, if I were to shoot a rabbit here in Bowie, I'd probably get in trouble.... We did have a neighbor who came to shoot things the bb-gun wouldn't kill, and he would eat it--no matter what it was!

[tdvance]

Well I think you're comparing apples and oranges here; saying that these 'zero tolerance' policies are a replacement for corporal punishment, whereas I believe the two have little to do with one another.

I find it hard to believe that after literally centuries of rarely needing more than paddling, when it goes away, suddenly a lot of new kinds (or old more-sever-than-paddling kinds used far more often, or sever consequences of not using new or old more often) of punishment show up in its place, but that one has nothing to do with the other. I also find it hard to believe that, as another said, something that "teaches the children nothing" continued to be used for centuries--what a waste of effort when a teacher was in the ideal position to see if the children learned from it or not, and we can't argue that every teacher was unobservant.

[Click Ticker]

As much as the lack of paddling may be a problem, I tend to view the overall lack of respect in society as a contributing factor. I was raised to never address an adult by their first name. It was always Mr. or Mrs. or Miss, sir or ma'am. The trend was already beginning to change though, as some adults would say, "Just call me Bob", to which I'd reply, "Okay Mr. Smith."

Children seem to be taught now that they are peers to the adults in their life. They never learn to have respect for their teachers or their parents. I don't know that this necessarily began with the removal of corporal punishment. I think a contributing factor is as benign as all the adults they know saying, "Just call me Bob."

[Tinaa]

Children seem to be taught now that they are peers to the adults in their life. They never learn to have respect for their teachers or their parents. I don't know that this necessarily began with the removal of corporal punishment. I think a contributing factor is as benign as all the adults they know saying, "Just call me Bob."

I'm always hearing students say, how come you get to ..... and I don't. I tell them it is because I am an ADULT! That's why.

[Kaptain K]

When I was in school and paddling was still acceptable, it wasn't the paddling itself that was the deterrent, It was the possibility of paddling that kept us in line! Paddling didn't hurt near as much as the humiliation.

[tdvance]

Same at my school--paddling was "rare and legal" but kept behavior in line even for those not directly affected. (not me--I had one teacher who paddled for forgetting to bring workbooks,etc, to class, and I was and am forgetful--I do think THAT was out of line (as grandfather, former asst. superintendent said, paddle for doing something, not for not doing something), of course--and so did parents who sent letters to school about it).

[KaiYeves]

Hmm--I wonder if I'd get in trouble if I were a child today and someone saw my picture of a teacher with horns and fire all around him....

Probably not. Back when I was eight I drew my teacher running around in a gerbil wheel and all the principal said was "If you like drawing cartoons so much, get a seprate notebook for it, don't do it in your school notebook".

[Larry Jacks]

When I was in school and paddling was still acceptable, it wasn't the paddling itself that was the deterrent, It was the possibility of paddling that kept us in line! Paddling didn't hurt near as much as the humiliation.

Applying the board of education to the seat of learning took place from time to time when I was in school. It was rare. The embarrassment was much worse than the paddling.

[cosmocrazy]

As much as the lack of paddling may be a problem, I tend to view the overall lack of respect in society as a contributing factor. I was raised to never address an adult by their first name. It was always Mr. or Mrs. or Miss, sir or ma'am. The trend was already beginning to change though, as some adults would say, "Just call me Bob", to which I'd reply, "Okay Mr. Smith."

Children seem to be taught now that they are peers to the adults in their life. They never learn to have respect for their teachers or their parents. I don't know that this necessarily began with the removal of corporal punishment. I think a contributing factor is as benign as all the adults they know saying, "Just call me Bob."

I agree and think this is the under lining factor RESPECT, when i was young if i did something wrong the embarrassment of being disrespectful was the worst part especially if my father found out about it. I never had anything worse than a slap on the legs or a ruler across by backside but the thought of letting down my parents hurt more. I don't resent any punishment i received i deserved everyone. Children nowadays are not allowed to earn respect by the process of seniority. The older generation are respected for their knowledge and experience in life and modern children should be encouraged to follow this tradition. The problem is modern children are put on pedestals and are freely given responsibilities that they cannot and are not mature enough to handle. They should be taught to do what elders tell them and accept it with out questioning until they become mature enough themselves. Some children do not see why some of their actions are bad, they genuinely believe that what they do means very little.
A young lad of 12 i know was toy fighting with his younger brother. The fight soon turned violent and i tried to intervene, abuse was hurled back at me form the oldest and a comment that he would report me to social security for abuse if i even touched him. I hesitated at this comment, at this point he smashed a stone over his brother's head and the result was a visit to the hospital with severe concussion and a nasty cut. The 12yr old was ticked off but failed to see what was so bad and that his brother deserved it. The parents are then held and questioned about the boys home life and investigated to see if there was a history of child abuse in the family. There was non. The 12yr old gets off Scot free and thinks he's got one up on the elders. He has and he knows it. How the heck are we supposed to enforce discipline into him until he matures enough to see the error in is ways? If he was taught to accept what he was told from his elders and to respect them. The only problem i see is the situation where a child is abused. Yes we need a system in place to protect such children. But one that still installs the need for respect for others and their elders.

[Larry Jacks]

Remember this story from last year?

Twenge, the author of “Generation Me: Why Today’s Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled — and More Miserable Than Ever Before,” said narcissists tend to lack empathy, react aggressively to criticism and favor self-promotion over helping others.

The researchers traced the phenomenon back to what they called the “self-esteem movement” that emerged in the 1980s, asserting that the effort to build self-confidence had gone too far.

‘I am special, I am special’

As an example, Twenge cited a song commonly sung to the tune of “Frere Jacques” in preschool: “I am special, I am special. Look at me.”

“Current technology fuels the increase in narcissism,” Twenge said. “By its very name, MySpace encourages attention-seeking, as does YouTube.”

Elders have been complaining about the younger generation for at least 2000 years - sometimes with very good cause.

[cosmocrazy]

Remember this story from last year?

Twenge, the author of “Generation Me: Why Today’s Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled — and More Miserable Than Ever Before,” said narcissists tend to lack empathy, react aggressively to criticism and favor self-promotion over helping others.

The researchers traced the phenomenon back to what they called the “self-esteem movement” that emerged in the 1980s, asserting that the effort to build self-confidence had gone too far.

‘I am special, I am special’

As an example, Twenge cited a song commonly sung to the tune of “Frere Jacques” in preschool: “I am special, I am special. Look at me.”

“Current technology fuels the increase in narcissism,” Twenge said. “By its very name, MySpace encourages attention-seeking, as does YouTube.”

Elders have been complaining about the younger generation for at least 2000 years - sometimes with very good cause.

I think this hits the nail on the head. I respected my father because he was better than me, more knowledgeable, more experienced and had been there and done that! He was my role model. When i matured into an adult my life experience and knowledge, what i learned form school, college, work and my parents allowed me to earn their respect as a process over time, the older i became the more responsibility i shouldered the more respect i earned, so the more continuing respect i showed for others. Its a natural healthy process for the survival of harmony in society as we would like it. Give too much too soon, all hell breaks loose.

[Larry Jacks]

When I hear kids say, "Respect has to be earned", I tend to agree. I then ask them what they've done to earn my respect.

Crickets chirping.

[Kaptain K]

From the article:

Enough about me, what do you think about me?

Dang My sister is/was ahead of her time. She is in her mid-50s and that has been a family joke about her for two decades.
When I was in recovery from surgery, I was two blocks from her house for over two months. She came to see me six times and every time she brought her damn dogs.
My brother visited me three or for times a week before he drove home (a one hour drive through rush hour traffic).
She has since ceased communicating with the rest of us, not that any of us are complaining.

[Click Ticker]

The problem is modern children are put on pedestals and are freely given responsibilities that they cannot and are not mature enough to handle.

This is the only part I'll disagree with. They aren't given any responsibilities. An allowance these days is a right of childhood with no work done to earn it. Part of it is that parents like things done the right way, so it's easier to stick your kid in front of the TV or video game and do the dishes yourself rather than risk a broken glass. It's easier to mow the lawn yourself (or hire it done as seems to be more common these days) than to have your kid leave jagged lines in the mowing pattern and actually earn a couple dollars. We had a list of main chores that needed to be done everyday and we had a check sheet that we had to initial when they were done. This was to earn 75 cents - $1.50 a week. I managed to save up over $200 in a savings account with that allowance.

I'm going to take the liberty to change one word in your sentence:

The problem is modern children are put on pedestals and are ... given freedoms that they cannot and are not mature enough to handle.

[sabianq]

Paddling? What's the difference between 'paddling' and beating?
When I was at school they hit you with a cane a blackboard ruler or a training shoe. Our ol 'Tech Drawing' teacher used a 'Flexicurve'
All it did was breed resentment. It never stopped us.

If anyone hit my son with anything I would call the police.

when i was in grade school my 6th grade teacher threw "stanley" the stapler at us when we were acting up. It sure got our attention.

also, I concur, if anyone ever hit my son with anything, someone would have to call to call an ambulance and I might be thrown in jail.

[Click Ticker]

I think this hits the nail on the head. I respected my father because he was better than me, more knowledgeable, more experienced and had been there and done that! He was my role model. When i matured into an adult my life experience and knowledge, what i learned form school, college, work and my parents allowed me to earn their respect as a process over time, the older i became the more responsibility i shouldered the more respect i earned, so the more continuing respect i showed for others. Its a natural healthy process for the survival of harmony in society as we would like it. Give too much too soon, all hell breaks loose.

Agreed. That's why on family bike rides, when my son races off and pronounces himself the fastest, I reel him right in and accelerate on by just to let him know he's still got a lot of work to do.

[cosmocrazy]

This is the only part I'll disagree with. They aren't given any responsibilities. An allowance these days is a right of childhood with no work done to earn it. Part of it is that parents like things done the right way, so it's easier to stick your kid in front of the TV or video game and do the dishes yourself rather than risk a broken glass. It's easier to mow the lawn yourself (or hire it done as seems to be more common these days) than to have your kid leave jagged lines in the mowing pattern and actually earn a couple dollars. We had a list of main chores that needed to be done everyday and we had a check sheet that we had to initial when they were done. This was to earn 75 cents - $1.50 a week. I managed to save up over $200 in a savings account with that allowance.

I'm going to take the liberty to change one word in your sentence:

Thank you for the correction, that is what i meant.

[Joe Boy]

when i was in grade school my 6th grade teacher threw "stanley" the stapler at us when we were acting up. It sure got our attention.

also, I concur, if anyone ever hit my son with anything, someone would have to call to call an ambulance and I might be thrown in jail.

Our shop teacher threw these big rolls of masking tape at the unsuspecting "cut-ups". I was targeted and struck more then once--but look at how nice and even tempered I turned out!!??

[BigDon]

All I'm going to say is that hitting a child never teaches them anything. It's abuse, pure and simple.

It teachs them not to bite thier siblings.

It teachs them not to throw solid objects in a house full of fish tanks.

The only two things that got you paddled around here. Every other time the "spoon" (a wooden salad spoon) came out it was a bluff and was put away after the message came across. Though they never realized that.

But, since you are still young, I can understand your ignorance.