Boycott Homework Questions

[mugaliens]

I would like a link that discusses the evidence to support proton formation from quarks.

LINK

I keep asking myself - why do people ask such ridiculous questions here, first, before going to Wikipedia or Google?

Uh, duh?

Is it because they've never heard of these resources? Heck, I'm all over this board, and I have both in my signature!

Please get some education first, then come back to the board so that you can be a contributor, instead of a neophyte sucking time from the rest of us.

Also, please understand, I have no problem helping anyone with the finer points. The only reason I answered this response was to point out what we should NOT do - someone else's basic homework when their answers are a few keystrokes away.

As Sam Kineson said, we need to send the neophytes to LIVE WHERE THE FOOD IS!!!

Instead of being their personally manipulated homework puppets.

SO.

I'm calling for a HARD boycott on all one-posters. Don't take the time to answer their questions. Please. Your time is WORTH MORE than than. Just give them a one-link to Wiki, Google, whatever, and say, "Hey - the answer is out there. Do some research like the rest of us have.

Even repeat posters - send them packing to the resources which DO have the answers to their questions. Don't work harder. Work smarter.

Look, folks, it might be fun, but you and I both know there are other things in your lives which we all need to attend to. If the answer is already out there, point them to it, with a link, along with a bit of chastisement, not just for them, but for the other one-timers who seem to be all too frequent here on BAUT.

Trust me - I don't want to leave these kids hanging. But there are more important things out there, and most of the long-timers on this board are doing high-school, if not grade-school teaching, in depth, instead of simply pointing "those that question" in a more appropriate direction. You folks are very, very bright. In most things. Please stop wasting your talent on kids who're simply trying to gain answers to their 10th-grade homework questions.

Ok? Refuse to answer them! Encourage them to search Wiki/Google, whatever.

These kids have you guys over a barrel! They come online, make one post, and like Pavlov's dog, you guys give them all the answers they need to make an A.

Let's stop this nonsense (of which I've been a part, until I finally realized what's going on).

No more answering ridiculously inane questions when the answer is already available elsewhere. Just post the link, so that these kids (and some adults) can begin a life of discovery, and leave a co-dependant life of asking the experts to solve all their problems for them.

[geonuc]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but aren't we (BAUT) kinda like wikipedia - an online resource?

[Van Rijn]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but aren't we (BAUT) kinda like wikipedia - an online resource?

Yes, much of the point of Q&A is for folks that have an astronomy question, but don't have enough background to work out the answer for themselves. If they really are asking homework questions (that is, "I have this question on my school homework, how do I answer it?") there is an unwritten rule to give them some hints, but that's it. If the question is too broad, like, "Can you explain astronomy to me?" then the answers usually give some friendly suggestions of ways the questioner could learn more. But, if the questioner asks a specific, honest question, I see no reason to turn them away with a sneer.

[gannon]

I don't think most people are asking all there questions to be answered just the ones where they feel they are lacking or feel that this is a good place for those kind of questions because of the amount of experts (I wouldn't expect people asking me astronomy questions). Remember wiki and self study can lead to gross misconceptions but with a back and forth those can be solved.

Some questions may seem inane to you but that is because you have knowledge of these concepts. People ask me questions in my field that I find inane sometimes but I know that they don't find it inane. I try to explain to the best of my ability and they can comment or ask more questions, this forum is a wonderful place where you can ask questions that lead from the answers. Asking a question to clarify something that you are not sure about but could lead to more questions is good.

[Kaptain K]

I disagree with always pointing them to a link. My response depends on how obvious it is that it is a "homework" question. If it is blatant, I'll either ignore it or say "do your own homework", depending on my mood. If I'm not sure, but it looks like homework, I'll say "Google (or Wikipedia) is your friend" and let them do their own legwork. Only if it appears that they have made some effort and turned to BAUT as a last (as opposed to first) resort will I try to find a useful site and link to it.

[HenrikOlsen]

Please get some education first, then come back to the board so that you can be a contributor, instead of a neophyte sucking time from the rest of us.

Also, please understand, I have no problem helping anyone with the finer points. The only reason I answered this response was to point out what we should NOT do - someone else's basic homework when their answers are a few keystrokes away.

As Sam Kineson said, we need to send the neophytes to LIVE WHERE THE FOOD IS!!!

I think you should take a break, you sound like you need it.

[Neverfly]

I think you should take a break, you sound like you need it.

Being the overly-emphatic sort myself, I can usually recognize it in another

I am with Kaptain K on this one: It depends.

I agree with Mugs reference to Sam Kineson- And I'm pretty sure most of us are perceptive enough to see what has been going on lately that may have inspired Mugs to draw attention to what's going on...

Kineson makes mention of the leeches. Those that like to make a fuss about what they lack even when it is fully within their power to pursue getting it on their own.
It's much more rewarding to research answers than to get a quick, easy one.

Chris Hillman raised some concerns.
Others have periodically too- and now Mugaliens is revisiting his "By The Bootstraps argument.

Well, here is how I see it.

Literal Schoolwork: Van Rijn points out that we usually can tell when a posted OP looks like a schoolwork question. So I don't particularly think that's a problem area as most members are perceptive enough to see what's going on. Guiding the querrent to resources is better- that way they can understand answers instead of having them handed to them.
Schoolwork questions where the individual is asking for help- not free answers
are usually pretty clear too.
Curiosity questions: Geonuc points out that that's what BAUT does. It helps answer questions and provide support in a friendly and informative environment.

So what's the difference?

Chris pointed out that there are limits. Simple astronomy questions, stargazing advice, equipment advice, school project advice etc- there are ready answers BAUT can help provide.
But there are deeper discussions like Quantum Mechanics, Cosmology, Relativity, Black Holes and other theoretical Physics that Require a foundation of some education to begin to understand the concepts.
On issues like these, BAUT can discuss. Guide. But not teach as instructor and student. Ok, BAUT CAN do that- to some degree, but it's pretty limited and it requires a lot of personal responsibility on the part of the person asking the questions... And an understanding on that persons part that they are not going to get a nice simple answer in just a few posts.
[This is one reason that ( I note Mugs included a post quote from Bogie) I would like to see Bogie participate more in Quantum Mechanic discussions in the Mainstream section.]

BAUT can assist in understanding and discuss issues, but not teach issues. It is up to the individual asking questions to take on the responsibility of research as well.

So I see where Mugs is coming from. There are a lot of posters that do hit and miss, drive by posting and basically leech off of BAUT for easy answers.
There are some that inundate with questions that really require the person asking to do research before asking BAUT'ers to do it for them.

I see a lot of posts that say "Google is your friend." It seems Mugs isn't alone in this reasoning.

This OP may be directed at Members, but is open to all others to read. It can remind readers to take a few minutes of responsibility and try a quick search first. If that search confuses you- No Problem. We can help. If that search yields tough to understand answers, it's ok. We've got your back.
Most of the folks on BAUT seem to love helping people out and I know that I have learned more in one year on BAUT than I have learned in five before I started reading On BAUT.
But it isn't all BAUT's fault. Sometimes it's because I see a confusing thread- and I have to hit the books to understand that thread.
Sometimes it's because I bite off more than I can chew arguing with an ATM and I have to hit the books to support my wobbly legs.

[Veeger]

I can't support this proposal. One of the truly wonderful things about this discussion board is the willingness of people to help; some because they like to showoff their knowledge, others because they truly want to share what they know for the benefit of all.

I came to this board and broke the ice on the Q&A forum and people were willing to answer and engage me and so I gained the confidence to continue. Had I been put off or given terse responses, I may have just dropped out. Some of the forums have evolved into communities of friends. Hang out for a while in the Astrophotography or Observing, Equipment forum and you will see what I mean.

This board is a pleasure to visit and participate.

-Veeger

[mugaliens]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but aren't we (BAUT) kinda like wikipedia - an online resource?

Not really.

Type in "quasar" on Baut and you get links to hundreds of different threads, most of which won't answer whatever question you had about quasars (such as "what is a quasar"), and most of which are filled with various offshoots of the OP. In fact, it would take someone hours to read through all the threads.

Type in "quasar" on Wikipedia and you get a well-formatted article, complete with it's own table of contents to the various sections, links to further readings, "see also's", references, and links to external websites about quasars (in case the Wiki aritcle didn't answer the question). And it doesn't take hours to read the article. It takes just a few minutes.

To top it off, the Wiki article on quasars did answer my question: Quasars are believed to be the output from accretion disks falling into supermassive black holes at the centers of distant galaxies.

[geonuc]

Not really.

Type in "quasar" on Baut and you get links to hundreds of different threads, most of which won't answer whatever question you had about quasars (such as "what is a quasar"), and most of which are filled with various offshoots of the OP. In fact, it would take someone hours to read through all the threads.

Type in "quasar" on Wikipedia and you get a well-formatted article, complete with it's own table of contents to the various sections, links to further readings, "see also's", references, and links to external websites about quasars (in case the Wiki aritcle didn't answer the question). And it doesn't take hours to read the article. It takes just a few minutes.

To top it off, the Wiki article on quasars did answer my question: Quasars are believed to be the output from accretion disks falling into supermassive black holes at the centers of distant galaxies.

I wasn't suggesting we operate exactly like wiki (I said "kinda like"). There, you type in quasar and get something pre-prepared by others. Here, you get real-time humans that you can interact with and who can ask you pointedly to clarify if needed. Typing in quasar with a BAUT search would be shear madness as our threads are too scattered, as you point out. But a newbie opening a thread with a question doesn't deal with that.

We're another kind of online resource.

Not that I disagree with you.

[Moose]

Look, folks, it might be fun, but you and I both know there are other things in your lives which we all need to attend to. If the answer is already out there, point them to it, with a link, along with a bit of chastisement, not just for them, but for the other one-timers who seem to be all too frequent here on BAUT.

My short answer is: no.

Mugs, you're making three assumptions I consider to be untenable.

1) that these folks haven't tried wiki and/or other resources before coming to us,

2) that they would necessarily be able to understand the notation that wiki math or algorithm posts use, and

3) that the rest of us are unable to manage our time sufficiently well to see to "things needing attending to" when they really need attending to.

If you don't want to answer those posts, don't answer them. Nobody's dragging you to those threads. You can ignore 'em all you like, especially since they all fall into one nice handy forum. You can participate where and how you like, within the rules of the forum. As can the rest of us.

[Jeff Root]

In addition to Moose's three untenable assumptions, I add:

4) that an encyclopedia article or website is the kind of help the person needs,

5) that finding information in a search or encyclopedia lookup is more efficient
than asking a question and getting an answer here, and

6) that the people answering don't get at least as much out of the answers as
the people asking the questions.

I like Van Rijn's reply. Henrik Olsen's reply has legs, too, if taken in a
non-moderatory kind of way. Namely, chill out, this isn't a real problem.
We can all understand the problem you see, but most people see that
it just isn't real.

I was astonished at your reply to geonuc, post #9. It was completely
off the target. BAUT is certainly an online information resource, and it
is a resource that works very differently from an online encyclopedia,
because it isn't an encyclopedia. Enough said?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Tinaa]

I've asked for help for my daughter's homework chemistry. Mostly for help clarifying concepts. I haven't had chemistry in 25+ years. I did do the research. BAUT was a great resource for me. Stoichiometry is up next. I'm sure I'll be back for help in that.

[SolusLupus]

Boycott Homework Questions

No.

Since my posts are my own decision of how I spend or time or not, I believe I don't have to explain this response.

[peter eldergill]

Well...believe it or not, some people (like me!) want to hear your answers and opinions to questions (even Neverfly's HA!), not just some article on wiki.

Over the years I've got to know folks around here as much as you can on a message board and I find your opinions/answers insightful and very useful.

To be honest, it's more fun to have a more personal answer approach than just reading a wiki article or whatever

Now I'm suggesting I would ask "What's a Black Hole" and yes, sometimes I do know that my answers can be found elsewhere.

Anyhoo...that's enough for now, I gotta think up a really simple question to ask...Oh wait..."What's the difference between a vector and a scalar?"

Heh..

Pete

[Gillianren]

Google or Wikipedia will also tell you that it's spelled "Kinison."

[TheOncomingStorm]

If they are they have a multiple choice question and they want us to answer it for then then no, I would not answer but if they a question in which they need an expalianation or help with the maths then it is upto you if you answer it.

[hhEb09'1]

As Sam Kineson said, we need to send the neophytes to LIVE WHERE THE FOOD IS!!!

I was going to ignore this one (there is food at BAUT! ) but then

I agree with Mugs reference to Sam Kineson- And I'm pretty sure most of us are perceptive enough to see what has been going on lately that may have inspired Mugs to draw attention to what's going on...

I didn't watch the video that Mugs linked, but I remember watching footage of Kinison doing that bit, not on Letterman though IIRC.

Kinison was referring to people who live in famine areas, starving. The (shouted of course) comment was go live where the food is. It was funny, we laughed, but I remember shaking my head at the time, thinking "It's good to be reminded that there's a reason comedians don't run the world." (hold it down)

In general, people who live in famine areas, didn't journey there to live. The famine came to them. I was reminded, again, of this, when half the counties in our state of North Carolina went into critical drought stages this past year. At one point our county, with hundreds of thousands of people, had less than thirty days worth of water. The lakes were trickles of water. If it hadn't rained heavily (it did) what would we have done with those thousands (well, millions actually) of people? What if the drought had continued and this area turned into a 21st century dust bowl? Kinison (RIP) would have been yelling "go where the water is, you idiots!"

The moral of this post? Don't over-react.

[Neverfly]

Well...believe it or not, some people (like me!) want to hear your answers and opinions to questions (even Neverfly's HA!),

BAUT is seriously going to end up giving me a complex...

In general, people who live in famine areas, didn't journey there to live. The famine came to them. I was reminded, again, of this, when half the counties in our state of North Carolina went into critical drought stages this past year. At one point our county, with hundreds of thousands of people, had less than thirty days worth of water. The lakes were trickles of water. If it hadn't rained heavily (it did) what would we have done with those thousands (well, millions actually) of people? What if the drought had continued and this area turned into a 21st century dust bowl? Kinison (RIP) would have been yelling "go where the water is, you idiots!"

The moral of this post? Don't over-react.

True, but the relation to the comedians act was not about famine either. It was an analogy expressing what is going on on BAUT- which is based on entirely different principles than that of famines.

[Moose]

I've already responded to Mugs' proposal, but I think I want to explain the visceral component of my response.

I did not (nor would I) join a site called the Just-Us League of Astronomy Heroes, I joined BABB, and later, BAUT. BA's original site had been to correct common astronomy mistakes that real science people (you know, the ones who are allowed to ask questions) would never, ever make. UT offers astronomy news and context in layperson's terms, and Fraser's other project, Astronomy Cast, explains complex astronomy in terms high school kids and laypeople like me can understand.

BAUT's mandate could not be clearer. BAUT's very nature is inclusive, not exclusive. We have folks who want to get chatty, so OTB was created. We have folks who want to do ATM, so we have an ATM forum.

We have forums to include as many people and astronomy-related interests as we can, including one called Q&A. Why have a forum called Questions if we won't tolerate people asking them, even those of layfolk? Why have the same forum also called Answers if we aren't willing to provide them?

There are no stupid questions, according to the joke, only inquisitive idiots, and even they, were any to show up, have a place here so long as they follow the rules, first among them, be nice.

Newbies should feel free to ask as many questions of us as they feel the need to.

[Neverfly]

Newbies should feel free to ask as many questions of us as they feel the need to.

As I referenced elsewhere:
"Give 'em an inch..."

What it comes down to is that most folks will do the right thing- Some will walk all over you, wipe their feet and then laugh at you when they're done.

I think it is that last type that has gotten mugaliens so aggravated.

[Lyin' King]

What if the drought had continued and this area turned into a 21st century dust bowl? Kinison (RIP) would have been yelling "go where the water is, you idiots!"

They can stay where the water isn't if they want.

[Moose]

As I referenced elsewhere:
"Give 'em an inch..."

Nobody said we had to give 'em a mile, Nev. Not when the few yards we can spare without blinking will do just as well. We're not captives, after all. We can answer, or not answer, as we like.

(ATMers have more responsibilities in that forum, of course, but they've necessarily agreed to defend their work in exchange for our time in evaluating it, or their single-shot at promotion, whichever is the motivating factor.)

The only person who can truly take advantage of Nev... is Nev.

[HenrikOlsen]

Henrik Olsen's reply has legs, too, if taken in a
non-moderatory kind of way.

I try to always indicate when my comments are moderatory by color.
It was not a moderatory comment.

[Neverfly]

Nobody said we had to give 'em a mile, Nev. Not when the few yards we can spare without blinking will do just as well. We're not captives, after all. We can answer, or not answer, as we like.

(ATMers have more responsibilities in that forum, of course, but they've necessarily agreed to defend their work in exchange for our time in evaluating it, or their single-shot at promotion, whichever is the motivating factor.)

The only person who can truly take advantage of Nev... is Nev.

That's true- but there's a bit of blindness that comes from being helpful.

When you want to help a person out- you can tend to not close the doors soon enough.
I agree with what you said- but practicing it can become a bit hard to do.

Part of my point is that Mugaliens, while getting a bit carried away (Which I can relate to) was not entirely wrong. And I think it's important that we look past our 'ideals' and see the reality.

Some posters- you get stuck in a quandary- between trying to help them out- and feeling uncertain about whether they actually want that help or are using you for their own motives.

Off topic- I notice that since BigDon has referred to me as Nev (And NoCleverName as Clev etc) that it seems to have been picked up...

Nev.... Sounds like Bev. Not to be confused with Beverfly

[Moose]

Some posters- you get stuck in a quandary- between trying to help them out- and feeling uncertain about whether they actually want that help or are using you for their own motives.

To some degree, everybody is using you for their own motives. Our need to interact, if nothing else. I don't see that as much of a problem. Certainly not to the extent that Mugs sees it.

The reason we avoid doing more than hint and guide for schoolwork questions is that being spoon-fed the answer doesn't help the student, it harms them by denying them the opportunity to learn the material. Since we're trying to help rather than harm...

Other than that, so long as the questioner isn't actively being abusive (and the rules cover most of those cases), there's no reason whatsoever to not let each poster judge for him or herself the extent of their participation.

Off topic- I notice that since BigDon has referred to me as Nev (And NoCleverName as Clev etc) that it seems to have been picked up...

For my part, you might call it a peace offering of a sort. Does it bother you?

[Neverfly]

The reason we avoid doing more than hint and guide for schoolwork questions is that being spoon-fed the answer doesn't help the student, it harms them by denying them the opportunity to learn the material. Since we're trying to help rather than harm...

I think we all agree on this one. And mostly, I see that going on.
Mugaliens points- although more extreme than others might agree with- are agreed with on a more moderate level. The difference is just in making sure some folks see and are aware of the idea. Sometimes you just have to make some noise to get some attention drawn to an issue.

Other than that, so long as the questioner isn't actively being abusive (and the rules cover most of those cases), there's no reason whatsoever to not let each poster judge for him or herself the extent of their participation.

Mugaliens, in an emphatic way, gives us the opportunity to check ourselves and ask ourselves more often if we are being abused

For my part, you might call it a peace offering of a sort. Does it bother you?

Doesn't bother me. I was trying to be funny.

[grant hutchison]

True, but the relation to the comedians act was not about famine either. It was an analogy expressing what is going on on BAUT- which is based on entirely different principles than that of famines.

Yeah. I despise the joke but see the analogy.
Just to run with it a little, though: if people come here with questions, should we tell them to go and live where the information is (Wikipedia, Google), or should we invite them to stay where the knowledge is (BAUT)?

Grant Hutchison

[Moose]

Just to run with it a little, though: if people come here with questions, should we tell them to go and live where the information is (Wikipedia, Google), or should we invite them to stay where the knowledge is (BAUT)?

Pithy.

[Neverfly]

Pithy.

'Twas Brillig...

And the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the waaaaabe