Established Member
How many times and how many ways do we have to say the same thing? "Wrong" doesn't really apply. The "equation" is MEANINGLESS.Originally Posted by Orion38
No one here as made the demonstration than the equation is wrong.
Banned
Are you angry against wedgebert because he have used the word "Wrong"How many times and how many ways do we have to say the same thing? "Wrong" doesn't really apply. The "equation" is MEANINGLESS.No one here as made the demonstration than the equation is wrong.
or against me who have defended the point than the equation is not Wrong.
However i can accept than the equation can be relatively Meaningless.
Edited I changed the Emoticon .Why? because I am happy simply....to end this discussion.:P
Established Member
Orion, you don't seem to able accept that the equation is meaningless. You say it's "relatively" meaningless, means that to some people the equation does have meaning.
I guess that's true, to people like the equation's creator, it will always mean God exists to him. To people who can recognize the glaring errors in the entire theory, it's meaningless.
Order of Kilopi
You keep overlooking my point too, Orion. The orbits of the planets have not been fixed over time. If the equation were 'real' and not just coincidental, it would have to work 1 million years ago, 2 million years ago, 2 million years from now, etc.
Here's a 2 page summary describing the stability and the instability of our solar system.
**Minor Warning: everytime I link to the site I have trouble getting back and have to log back in to my ISP. Also, if you are not familiar with pdf files, you have to change your pointer to a zoom tool and zoom in to read the page. But it was a very good concise explanation of orbital instability.....resonances in close proximity, provide the route to chaos in the solar system. Gravitational resonances may effect very large orbital changes or only modest orbital changes
Established Member
Yes, since I don't have a good mathematics program (MatLab, Mathematica, whatever), I left it for those who do. But even I can fit a polynomial function to four data points - it took me 15 minutes, tops, and that was only because I haven't done this stuff in years.Interesting but i am waiting for that demonstration and the reference post you have made on Page 4 ended with a request not a demonstration.
So:
f(inner orbit) = outer orbit
where
f(x) = a + b * x + c * x^2 + d * x^3
a = 0.505397141633 AU
b = -2.87449748576
c = 15.6817234129 AU^-1
d = -3.77377936875 AU^-2
This produces a perfect fit for all the data points in my 'reference post'. Gee. :roll:
(The data for this fit was taken from the original web page, btw. The constants should be limited to 3 significant figures, since the original data doesn't have better precision than this)
Established Member
Mercury’s semi-major axis – the starting value – is a special case in Bode’s Law. See here or here. Notice that one needs to assume the value n= - infinity to make the formula work for Mercury.
However, the formula works for the other planets. We have:
ln(b-0.4)=ln(a-0.4)+3*ln(2), or b=0.4+ (a-0.4)*2^3
for the semimajor axis b of the third next planet. (I’m using a and b instead of d_n and d_(n+3) here.)
a=0.7 for Venus. Plugging this into the equation, you get b=2.8, the value predicted by Bode’s Law for the asteroid belt.
a=1.0 for Earth. Plugging this into the equation, you get b=5.2, the value for Jupiter.
a=1.6 for Mars, which gives b=10.0, for Saturn. Etc.
Order of Kilopi
Well, you scared me away from checking the site you linked, but you're simply right that the planetary orbits are not stable. So a fixed "formula" purported to derive their semi-major axes could not possibly be right for past, present, and future orbital figures. Which means the whole idea of such a "formula" must be wrong.
In fact, I recall reading some five or more years ago that it had been established that all the planets' orbits were actually chaotic. I do hope Earth's orbit doesn't get too wacky in the near future. 8-[
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Banned
[quote="wedgebert"][quote="Orion38"]If they have know the Creation Equation they have should be able to determine the orbit of Uranus with an astonishing accuracy by proceding the mean orbit of Mars through the equation.
They should have be able to do the same thing for Neptune and Pluto by using the Equation.
Repeating Patterns, Fig 4 near bottom of the page for explanation.
http://www.geocities.com/godisreal_uk/mathone.htm
Order of Kilopi
Wow! Is there more to your equation then what you've presented so far? All I've seen you claim your equation can do is give the mean orbital distance of Uranus. Can it also give Uranus' orbital eccentricity and tell us where Uranus is in its orbit? The regular old gravity theory told us that based on watching Saturn . . .
If all you know is Uranus' mean orbital distance, you're not going to be able to find it in the sky.
Banned
Knowing Uranus distance from the Sun it is a simple matter of calculation for determined Uranus' orbital eccentricity and tell us where Uranus is in its orbit.
Established Member
Show us how using that equation.
Banned
The easy way to know how to use the equation is describe here:Show us how using that equation.
http://www.geocities.com/godisreal_uk/primer.htm
Established Member
Let me rephrase my previous statement. Orion38 you show us how to calculate Uranus' orbital eccentricity (or any planet's) and tell us where in its orbit it is using that so-called formula. Don't just throw up that link, you do the work and show us that it is easy.The easy way to know how to use the equation is describe here:Show us how using that equation.
http://www.geocities.com/godisreal_uk/primer.htm
Banned
Knowing Uranus Semimajor Axis (AU)*is an essential part of the calculation so at least the equation gives that.Let me rephrase my previous statement. Orion38 you show us how to calculate Uranus' orbital eccentricity (or any planet's) and tell us where in its orbit it is using that so-called formula. Don't just throw up that link, you do the work and show us that it is easy.The easy way to know how to use the equation is describe here:Show us how using that equation.
http://www.geocities.com/godisreal_uk/primer.htm
I don`t pretend to be able to do the calculation myself.
Can you?
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache...n&ie=UTF-8
Order of Kilopi
So it's not a simple matter then?Knowing Uranus distance from the Sun it is a simple matter of calculation for determined Uranus' orbital eccentricity and tell us where Uranus is in its orbit.
Banned
I have forget to mention than that must be a simple matter forAstronomers to do the work.
Order of Kilopi
Orion38, look at that page you linked to. It shows how to calculate the eccentricity given the semimajor axis and the "Distance from Center of Orbit to Focus". Your equation gives us the semimajor axis, but not the other value. So, even with that new link, your equation will not tell us Uranus' eccentricity.
Banned
-Uranus was discovered in 1781 and later it was discovered that it was being pulled slightly out of orbit. Then in 1845 John Couch Adams predicted the existance of another planet based on the observations of Uranus. The next year, Neptune was actually discovered, right where the predictions said it would be.-
Where in that statement they said than Uranus' eccentricity was determined before it`s discovery.
It taken more than 64 years to find Neptune based on the discovery that Uranus was being pulled slightly out of orbit.again where is the demonstration than Neptune`s eccentricity was determined before it`s discovery.
Established Member
Orion38:
If the mean A.U. of Mercury gives the mean A.U. of Mars, and the mean A.U. of Venus gives the mean A.U. of Jupiter, What planet gives the mean A.U. of the Astroid Belt???
Order of Kilopi
Knowing the laws of gravity, we could predict Saturn's path through the sky - it didn't follow that path correctly. Again knowing the laws of gravity, we could calculate that another planet was gravitationally affecting Saturn, and could in fact calculate where that planet was at that time. Telescopic examination of that area of the sky resulted in the discovery of Uranus. Following Uranus through the sky then allowed us to calculate its complete orbit (with eccentricity, et al) and eventually led to the discovery of Neptune through the same methods.
Now:
You are clearly suggesting here that centuries ago the Creation Equation would have given astronomers Uranus' mean orbital distance and that then they could calculate its eccentricity, find out where it currently was in its orbit, and then find it in the sky. No way.
Established Member
Nowhere, the orbital eccentricity of Uranus was discovered after the planet itself. Uranus was discovered by accident by William Herschel. At the time he believed it was a comet or something similar. It wasn't until afterwards, with the help of other astronomers, that it was discovered to be a planet.Where in that statement they said than Uranus' eccentricity was determined before it`s discovery.
It taken more than 64 years to find Neptune based on the discovery that Uranus was being pulled slightly out of orbit.again where is the demonstration than Neptune`s eccentricity was determined before it`s discovery.
This was pretty much a stroke of luck because Uranus is not visible from Earth with the naked eye (thus the builders of stonehenge could not have known about it).
As the years went on, the quality of telescopes improved and people became better able to chart the progress of the planets. Remember that a year on Uranus is 84 Earth years long, and a Neptunian year is 165 of our years long.
To notice the effect Neptune has on Uranus, you have to watch for a long time. You don't just say "hey I found a planet, woah, look at its orbit wobble, there must another planet nearby".
Based on these observations over the years, the position of the unknown planet (Neptune) was refined more and more until finally, astronomers were able to pinpoint it. (One astronomer who was searching for Neptune actually discovered it on four seperate occasions but didn't realize it and he was eventually beaten to the official discovery by astronomers in Berlin).
Banned
Edited for precision.Knowing the laws of gravity, we could predict Saturn's path through the sky - it didn't follow that path correctly. Again knowing the laws of gravity, we could calculate that another planet was gravitationally affecting Saturn, and could in fact calculate where that planet was at that time. Telescopic examination of that area of the sky resulted in the discovery of Uranus. Following Uranus through the sky then allowed us to calculate its complete orbit (with eccentricity, et al) and eventually led to the discovery of Neptune through the same methods.
Now:
You are clearly suggesting here that centuries ago the Creation Equation would have given astronomers Uranus' mean orbital distance and that then they could calculate its eccentricity, find out where it currently was in its orbit, and then find it in the sky. No way.
No I am suggesting than knowing the orbital path of Saturn (who was the last know planet at the time) Telescopic examination of that area of the sky would have resulted in the discovery of Uranus.
Banned
Exactly, so who as giving them this knowledge?
Order of Kilopi
Telescopic examination of what area of the sky? Saturn and Uranus don't hang out together, you know. Right now, they're not anywhere's near each other. Knowing the orbital path of Saturn (and using your equation to get the mean orbital distance of Uranus), how are you determining what part of the sky to examine for Uranus?
Banned
Of course I know that.Are you playing a word game?
Something looking like a planet located away of Saturn`s orbit.
Established Member
What knowledge? The knowledge of Neptune? That was gained by watching Uranus and interpolating its orbit. Its actual orbit deviated from what our equations said it should be, this was because there was an unseen gravitional force acting on Uranus. By further examining how much of an effect this unseen object exerted on Uranus, we could determine it's approximate distance and point our telescopes towards that general location.Exactly, so who as giving them this knowledge?
Compare this to the creation equation. Trying to find a planet using the CE gives you a distance from the sun that the planet will occupy at TWO points in its orbit. It doesn't tell you anything else, so in essence, it doesn't help you find planets at all.
Established Member
That means examining the ENTIRE ecliptic looking for a planet. That equation doesn't help at all in knowing what part of or how far off of the ecliptic to look. In fact, given that all the naked eye visible planets are near the ecliptic, thats where we'd be looking anyway. That equation doesn't give us anything of any value for finding where a planet is in the night sky when viewed from earth.No, I think he means ancient people like those who built Stonehenge. He thinks they knew of the outer planet. No, don't try arguing against that, he won't buy it.
Order of Kilopi
Away from Saturn's orbit? Why would you look there? At certain times, Saturn and Uranus are very close to each other in the sky. But some times, they are as far apart as 180 degrees. At any given time, how would you know where Uranus is relative to Saturn to begin looking for it?Something looking like a planet located away of Saturn`s orbit.
Banned
You have misinterpreted what I have stated.What I mean is...if they have know the Creation Equation they would have been able to know than Saturn was not the limit of the solar system as they have thinking.
I have never said than the Creation Equation can play the role of an orbit simulator. :roll:
Banned
The Creation Equation is like the table of fundamentals elements.Some unknow elements were determined to fit in the table.So the Creation Equation by using the orbit of the inner planets can gives the distance from the Sun for the outer planets.No, I think he means ancient people like those who built Stonehenge. He thinks they knew of the outer planet. No, don't try arguing against that, he won't buy it.
Question; who gives the equation to the builders of Stonehenge?
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