BSG S4 Discussion (spoilers of course)

[publius]

Well, I'm out here in CA (had to fly out due to an aunt's sudden death) and finally got access to a computer with internet access. Only problem is it's a Mac, and I know as much about them as I do brain surgery. But hey, I got this far. But it's old and slow and takes forever to load crap. It's got a cable modem here, it's just the machine itself is so ridiculously slow (I'd tell you the CPU speed and memory if I had any clue about Macs -- but it can't be much. )

And warning, read no further if you haven't seen S4 yet and don't want to be spoiled!


-----------------------------------------

Anyway, I thought I'd start a thread about S4 to keep everything in one place. So far, the spoilers have been right on track, specifically about Cally tonight.

All I can say so far is "Wow!" I'm loving every minute of it. Even spoiled, it's still surprising. Tori just blew me away tonight. Didn't see that coming. What was her motivation: protecting the Dylan Four secret identity at all costs, or lust for the Chief? Or both?

And, from the previews, I see my hunch that CapSix's new love would be ol' One Eye, Col Tgh (the cylons took the 'i', of course) was on track. That ought to be fun.

-Richard

[Delvo]

What was her motivation: protecting the Dylan Four secret identity at all costs, or lust for the Chief? Or both?

Most likely protecting the baby (which, apparently being a hybrid, could hold the key to reproduction of pure Cylons) from its mother, who had been just about to kill it when Tori got there and thus could be expected to try again later if she were allowed to continue to have access to the baby.

Keeping the Cylons' secret is also a possibility, but I don't think they'd go the "Everybody wants Tyrol" route again. It would be redundant to what they've done once before with him in particular (and even once was already freakish enough using an actor who doesn't look like the men who get cast in such roles), and it would be a return to the general theme that everybody was so annoyed by before when they made episode after episode about things like that, turning the show into a future-tech soap opera for a while.

[Jason]

Simple, she was lying about the "we're not evil" bit. She most certainly is evil.

[eugenek]

Toward the end of the recent episode, when the Cylons jumped and then slaughtered the Cylons which wanted to unbox Deanna, I saw the constellation Orion in the background. If this was intentional I'm thinking the Cylons are a lot closer to Earth than the humans. I would think there is a relatively small section of space where Orion would look like Orion.

[Certassar]

Wow! You are right! That is definately Orion:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/...c90b486b_o.jpg

Later, when Cally goes to the airlock she looks out the window and see this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/...bba0cc53_o.jpg

Does anybody recognize that as a constellation (as seen from Earth)?

EDIT:
About the airlock incident... Cally goes to the airlock where she overrides the safeties with Tyrol's key. As I see it, Cally intends to kill herself and/or her child. When Tori arrives, Cally locks her into the airlock with her. Tori knocks out Cally and gets rid of the obvious threat to her life (as well as a witness). I think her primary motivation is simply self preservation, more than an evil "by your command" cylon act.

[publius]

Good catch. I didn't see that at all.

Now, the question. Did Ron Moore put that in intentionally, or was that just some real earth "star field" footage they happened to slap up for a backdrop. Ron Moore probably did it on purpose, but I wonder if he was just playing games and it is not as significant as we might think.

-Richard

[Certassar]

Well, you would have to be both a BSG fan AND know your constellations AND happen to study the backdrop in the 2 seconds Orion is visible. If it's intentional, then it's a clue reserved for the chosen ones!!

However, I think it's more likely a mistake (standard starfield backdrop). Somebody ought to review the entire series to scan any star field for known constellations....

[publius]

From spoilers as well as things Ron Moore has said and hinted, the Final Five are "really different" cylons, and in a "All this has happened before and it will happen again" sort of way. I won't mention it here, but read the S4 spoiler thread if you dare about what the ancient name of the 13th colony that went to earth was. What "cylon" is and what "human" is goes a way back in time, I think.

So I don't think the Dylan Four are "evil". Tori (or is it Tory) may have committed a pretty evil act, but I do think it was entirely protecting themselves (and she wants the chief for herself, which is indeed a selfish act of evil like normal humans are wont to do anyway, but she had an excuse). I don't think the chief or even Tigh would've killed her. Well, Tigh just might have. Tory just took the bull by the horns. And she better pray the Chief never finds out (I'm sure he will later on, though )

-Richard

[LunarOrbit]

Is it just me, or does the Cylon baseship in that picture look a lot like the Orion constellation?

[Jason]

Tori is evil.
If all she wanted was Cally dead, all she had to do was wait and Cally would have done it to herself - an air-tight suicide.
Instead she played mind games with her and then killed Cally herself. Apparently it was to get Nicky, but it was a very underhanded way of doing it.
And I think the Chief is going to pay Tori back for it at some point in the near future.

[eugenek]

For a good chunk of winter, Orion sits above my garage when I come home from work so my eye is very accustomed to seeing it. It's a very recognizable constellation anyways.

When Callie looked out the window I thought I should recognize the pattern but I could not make anything out. It just seemed like one of those scenes which was put together for a reason other than just art. I thought I saw a distorted Big Dipper but I don't think so. I just dismissed it as just a random starview. Then Orion made its guest appearance.

If Orion was intentional then it would be pretty trivial to display a starview from a specific location in space. For what reason I don 't know.

However, on a side note, I have wondered if Alpha Centauri is the Trinary system Starbuck keeps on about.

[publius]

Another interesting question is did Tori(y) display "super cylon strength" when she knocked Cally winding? She was holding the child with one arm and casually knocked Cally airborne with her other arm. Is that supposed to be superhuman strength?

Or it is just standard TV make-believe where hot supermodel style babes with little twiggy arms the size of my pinky finger beat up 6' 250lb guys without breaking a sweat and while wearing 6" heels to boot.

One of the spoilerly hints is that the Final Five are really god-like (god in the Lord of Kobol type of way), they just don't know their own "powers" yet.

-Richard

[Delvo]

What "cylon" is and what "human" is goes a way back in time, I think.

And that's a fundamental problem with the series. Cylons were invented by Colonial humans a few decades ago. They're artificially intelligent machines. Anything organic and with a longer history than that, such as the human-looking "Cylons", must by definition be not a Cylon but something else. And most of the evidence we're given says that what "else" they are is simply humans, with some modifications.

[Delvo]

I have wondered if Alpha Centauri is the Trinary system Starbuck keeps on about.

If they're anywhere near that close to Earth now after having deviated so far from where Starbuck wanted (and I'm not even sure that would be close enough to recognize our constellations), then Starbuck would lead them FAR off course.

Another tidbit: using astronomical cues like this to describe the species's history and guide people from place to place only works for a limited time scale before everything's moved so much that it all becomes useless...

[publius]

And that's a fundamental problem with the series. Cylons were invented by Colonial humans a few decades ago. They're artificially intelligent machines. Anything organic and with a longer history than that, such as the human-looking "Cylons", must by definition be not a Cylon but something else. And most of the evidence we're given says that what "else" they are is simply humans, with some modifications.

Ah, just keep in mind the ol' "All this has happened before..." theme. In the current instance of whatever theme plays over and over again, the cylons are machines created by humans who rebelled. In the previous cycle, the "humans" may have been something created by the "cylons" who rebelled. Each go 'round is similiar but different, and with the actors switching roles. And I suspect the human vs. cylon thing is but a subplot of some larger theme which repeats.

From spoilers and speculation, I suspect the Final Five are some sort of "link" to the last cycle.

-Richard

[publius]

If they're anywhere near that close to Earth now after having deviated so far from where Starbuck wanted (and I'm not even sure that would be close enough to recognize our constellations), then Starbuck would lead them FAR off course.

That is VERY much a possibility. Remember the final prophecy of the hybrid from the Razor movie before he was blown up. "Kara Thrace is the herald of the Apocalypse...." which will lead the human race to its doom or however it went exactly.

There are some rumors about a "false earth" that may have something to do with the mid-season cliffhanger. That is, they think they've found it, but it's not the real earth.

Besides humans and cylons, we seem to have some perhaps supernatural (or at least highly advanced) players here, which are represented by HeadSix and HeadBalter (note the switch -- head Baltar is now speaking to physical Baltar, and I assume HeadSix will go over to CapSix, but I'm not sure).

Starbuck herself apparently has a supernatural "spirit guide" who takes the form of Leoben (note she said to him, "you're not really Leoben", and he replied he never said he was).

So I suspect we've got God vs. Satan going on here. HeadSix-Baltar represent one side and NotReallyLeoben the other. The question is which one is which -- which side is good and which is evil. Our heroes will have to make a choice on which side to follow. Which "earth" do they go to. One is heaven and the other is hell I'm sure.

-Richard

[NorthGuy]

I saw the constellation Orion in the background.

I didn't see that myself, but if that's what is was...

Orion -> "belt" of Orion -> "trinary" star system

[phunk]

I didn't see that myself, but if that's what is was...

Orion -> "belt" of Orion -> "trinary" star system

The stars in the belt are far apart, wouldn't be considered a trinary system.

[NorthGuy]

Which is why I put the word in quotes. If Starbuck is remembering dreams, visions, hallucinations, or whatever, three stars appearing in close proximity might be remembered as "trinary". Granted, that's a bit of a stretch.

[Jim]

But it would be a better signpost than a true trinary system, which wouldn't stand out nearly as well from a distance or in a quick scan of the sky.

[vonmazur]

I was wondering if one of the BSG experts here could answer this....

What or who were the colonies fighting that required Cylons?? This was never addressed in this or the original series that I can remember..

Dale in Ala

[Jason]

In the current series the Cylons were apparently originally created as servants, not warriors. The Colonies weren't fighting anyone at the time. The Cylons rebelled, began building centurions and their own warships, and the war was fought from there.

In the original series the Cylons were created by an alien race of the same name. Those reptillian Cylons were destroyed by their machines, who took their name for their own and began a crusade to exterminate all organic life. The Imperius Leader from the original series apparently was meant to resemble one of the original reptillian Cylons.

[Delvo]

What or who were the colonies fighting that required Cylons??

Each other.

[vonmazur]

Thanks guys, I was wondering....IF the cylons were servants, then where did they get all the weapons?? Makes sense...

Dale

[hewhocaves]

So I dragged out my copy of starry night and my copy of Celestia and started playing with the night sky. After about a half an hour of tinkering with it, I came to the folowing conclusion. Given a straight line between earth and orion's belt, after about 20 - 30 light years the starfield starts varying enough to be noticable. After about 200 light years, Orion's belt and the main stars in the system start becoming unregonizable. Somewhere between those two points, the size of the constellation becomes unusually large.

So basically, if the starfield is exact and intentional, I'd say they're within 30 Ly of Terra. Of course, that would be amazing that someone went to that extreme.

John

heres a neat link about the whole thing:
http://community.livejournal.com/bat...og/992976.html

Edited to add:

After 2+ hours of wandering around Celestia, I found a lot of places that look like Callies starfied in some ways, but nothing that looks exactly like it. the closest stuff I've found was out around Vega, Scutum and Aquilla. Of course, i was looking from earths point of view and not 20ly towards Orion.. hmmm...

Okay. So it's definitely NOT looking back at Sol from 20 ly out (though that would have been a nice touch). nor is it looking at the Vega - Scutum area. That wishbone shaped arrangement of stars really makes me think i've seen it before, but that could very well be my imagination.

[eugenek]

So I dragged out my copy of starry night and my copy of Celestia and started playing with the night sky. After about a half an hour of tinkering with it, I came to the folowing conclusion. Given a straight line between earth and orion's belt, after about 20 - 30 light years the starfield starts varying enough to be noticable. After about 200 light years, Orion's belt and the main stars in the system start becoming unregonizable. Somewhere between those two points, the size of the constellation becomes unusually large.

Thanks for mentioning Celestia! I downloaded it and have been playing with it for the past hour. Not really doing anything constructive, just flying around.

When you were determining Cylon distance from Earth did you consider Eta and Zeta Lepus? Those stars are in the picture and are pretty close to earth relative to the bright stars in Orion. This assumes BSG considered that as well. Assuming Orion isn't an accident they may have just included it to say "They are close" but not really intended it to provide an exact position in space.

I like the Ophiuchus idea mentioned in the linked thread.

[hewhocaves]

Considering that I couldn't peg the other wiew through space after about three hours of searching lends me to believe that they mean nothing more than 'we're close'. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

and no, I didn't look at the Lepi. I just went with the obvious stars in the constellation. It was a quick job, as it were.

It would be really cool, though, if they were being exact. Think of all the astronomy that could be done.

[publius]

Well, they said this season was going to get dark, and oh my sweet Lords of Kobol or whoever or whatever, she's getting dark indeed.

And note that HeadSix physically picked up Baltar and walked him. To everyone else, an unseen force picked him up. No question about it, now, it's just whose side does she represent, good or evil. Starbuck is with one side, and our HeadSix and HeadBaltar are on the other.

And I knew CapSix and Tigh was coming, but darn that was just disturbing. Before it's over, they're all going to be crazy as loons.

And the Chief is going in self-destruct mode, he'll throw it all away rather than risking it being Cylong programming.

And Tory is getting pretty darn scary..............and that's saying a lot with all the other wackjobs running about.

-Richard

[NorthGuy]

The scene with Baltar being repeatedly struck down was very similar (perhaps based on?) a scene in the movie Gandhi . The difference is that Gandhi got up under his own power while Baltar was being bodily lifted by--what?

Is Baltar--of all people--being setup to become a Gandhi? Christ? the Anti-christ?

[Delvo]

Baltar got up on his own. He was just standing in a strange pose to match the position he thought he was being pulled into in his hallucination. It's the same thing that's happened every previous time he's hallucinated a physical interaction with the Cylon in his mind. When he hallucinated that she shoved his head into a wall, he lurched forward and smacked the wall with his head. When he hallucinated that she was touching his face, he turned out to be touching his own face. When he hallucinated that they were having sex or about to have sex, he reacted as if to sexual stimulation even though there wasn't anybody or anything touching him (not even himself). When he hallucinated that they were walking together holding hands, he had his hand out and posed as if there were someone's hand in it and holding it up there.