1. Established Member
Join Date
Oct 2007
Posts
487

## G red shift

Here is a thought experiment.

From the surface of a planet , in the G well, shine a green light upwards out of the G well.An outside observer sees a red shifted light.
Everyone agree so far?.

Next to the green light put a frequency meter to count the light waves and
divide the number by a squilion (whatever) so that its output is one count per second.Link this output with a display of numbers .After 1 second show 1,after the next second show 2 and so on.

The outside observer will see the green light (red shifted) and numbers changing at slower than 1 per second, set by the rate from the counter which
slows at the same rate as the red shift.

At the surface the number rate will be measured it 1 per second.
The outside observer will measure less than 1 per second.

Eventually the numbers will be out of step.
The outside observed number will be less then the surface observed number.

Where are the missing numbers?.

2. Originally Posted by undidly
Here is a thought experiment.

From the surface of a planet , in the G well, shine a green light upwards out of the G well.An outside observer sees a red shifted light.
No need for thought experiments when actual experiments have been done. Search for Pound & Rebka (gravitational redshift of gamma radiation on Earth).

3. Isn't this more of a Q & A than an ATM ?

4. Established Member
Join Date
Oct 2007
Posts
487
papageno

>No need for thought experiments when actual experiments have been done.>

Oh dear.You have completely missed the point of my post.The experiment has not been done.Where are the missing numbers?.
Do you understand the significance of the counter?.

5. Banned
Join Date
Dec 2006
Posts
13,423
Originally Posted by undidly
papageno

>No need for thought experiments when actual experiments have been done.>

Oh dear.You have completely missed the point of my post.The experiment has not been done.Where are the missing numbers?.
Do you understand the significance of the counter?.
I'm pretty sure I missed it too.

Why don't you, instead of asking questions, outline what you are driving at - clearly - and give us some idea of what kind of (answers?) response you are looking for?

6. Established Member
Join Date
Oct 2007
Posts
487
captain swoop

>Isn't this more of a Q & A than an ATM ?>

Not.Do the thought experiment.There is no red shift as the light rises through the
G field .It is already red shifted when it is produced.
Some would think that is ATM.

Count the light waves.Green 1 squilion per sec,red less than 1 squilion,where have the missing pulses gone?.
Reversed thought experiment.
Shining down from above is a green light.Count the waves.1 squilion green.
Recieved in the G well blue shifted,more than a squilion.Where do the extra waves come from?.

7. Banned
Join Date
Dec 2006
Posts
13,423
Originally Posted by undidly
captain swoop

>Isn't this more of a Q & A than an ATM ?>

Not.Do the thought experiment.There is no red shift as the light rises through the
G field .It is already red shifted when it is produced.
Some would think that is ATM.

Count the light waves.Green 1 squilion per sec,red less than 1 squilion,where have the missing pulses gone?.
Reversed thought experiment.
Shining down from above is a green light.Count the waves.1 squilion green.
Recieved in the G well blue shifted,more than a squilion.Where do the extra waves come from?.
What is a squilion?
Ok, so you seem to be claiming that our poor misguided astronomers misunderstood the cause of Doppler shift when looking at the stars...

Ugh...

Guesswork about what someone is trying to say....

Who around here likes playing twenty questions?

8. Established Member
Join Date
Oct 2007
Posts
487
Neverfly

>Why don't you, instead of asking questions, outline what you are driving at - clearly - and give us some idea of what kind of (answers?) response you are looking for?>

If I ask a question and get an answer then that person cannot later say "That is wrong".
If explain an idea many people just say "Wrong,not what I learned" and don't bother to work it out for themselves.
So where are the red shifted missing numbers ?.
From where come the blue shifted extra numbers?.
If you can work out where are the missing numbers you will know the truth about the so called G red shift.
Light does not change frequency going up or down a G field.
That idea was started by science reporters who didn't understand relativity.

9. Banned
Join Date
Dec 2006
Posts
13,423
Originally Posted by undidly
Neverfly
If I ask a question and get an answer then that person cannot later say "That is wrong".
If explain an idea many people just say "Wrong,not what I learned" and don't bother to work it out for themselves.
You are attempting to lead and control the direction of discussion.
However, that kind of control is not only limited... but telling.
Let's look at why...:
Originally Posted by undidly
So where are the red shifted missing numbers ?.
You outlined a thought experiment. Thought experiments are not actual experiments.

Describe to me:
1.) Why you think numbers are missing.
2.) All possible causes for missing numbers
3.) Whether or not your hypothesis is testable.

Bold Mine:
Originally Posted by undidly
From where come the blue shifted extra numbers?.
If you can work out where are the missing numbers you will know the truth about the so called G red shift.
Truth?
On what basis do you claim your hypothesis is truth? Are you trying to lead me to where you want me to go?
Originally Posted by undidly
Light does not change frequency going up or down a G field.
That idea was started by science reporters who didn't understand relativity.
Enlighten us...

10. Established Member
Join Date
Oct 2007
Posts
487
Neverfly

>What is a squilion?>

Some imaginary large number that coverts any large number to something simpler.
In this case light frequency to 1 per second.

>Ok, so you seem to be claiming that our poor misguided astronomers misunderstood the cause of Doppler shift when looking at the stars...>

NOT DOPPLER SHIFT.
Shift in a G field.

>Who around here likes playing twenty questions?>

Not me.One question.Where are the missing or extra numbers?.

11. Established Member
Join Date
Oct 2007
Posts
487
Neverfly

>What is a squilion?>

Some imaginary large number that coverts any large number to something simpler.
In this case light frequency to 1 per second.

>Ok, so you seem to be claiming that our poor misguided astronomers misunderstood the cause of Doppler shift when looking at the stars...>

NOT DOPPLER SHIFT.
Shift in a G field.

>Who around here likes playing twenty questions?>

Not me.One question.Where are the missing or extra numbers?.

12. Banned
Join Date
Dec 2006
Posts
13,423
Originally Posted by undidly
Neverfly

>What is a squilion?>

Some imaginary large number that coverts any large number to something simpler.
In this case light frequency to 1 per second.
Oh.
I thought it was a baby squid.

Originally Posted by undidly
>Ok, so you seem to be claiming that our poor misguided astronomers misunderstood the cause of Doppler shift when looking at the stars...>

NOT DOPPLER SHIFT.
Shift in a G field.
If left guessing I might go wandering off into left field.
I'm not very controllable...

Originally Posted by undidly
>Who around here likes playing twenty questions?>

Not me.One question.Where are the missing or extra numbers?.
What missing numbers?
Maybe they are between the squilion and mogloolian

13. Originally Posted by undidly
papageno

>No need for thought experiments when actual experiments have been done.>

Oh dear.You have completely missed the point of my post.The experiment has not been done.Where are the missing numbers?.
Of course it has been done: that's how they measured the gravitational redshift in the first place. Only because they did not use your counters, it does not mean that the experiment is not equivalent to your thought experiment.

Originally Posted by undidly
Do you understand the significance of the counter?.
Your counters (surface-based and outside-observer-based) are just the frequency of the light with another unit.

14. ## lost in squillions

Okay, so you set the rules for your “thought experiment” and we’re supposed to play by those rules?

So let’s give it a try. First of all, let’s define “squillion” in yours to make it equal 1 per second: Green light wavelength is lambda_Green = ~500x10-9 meters (or 500 nanometers), and lambda_Red = ~700x10-9 meters. So taking one second, and we know light travels at c = 3x10+8 meters per second, so in one second for Green light, we get lightspeed divided by wavelength, so that 3x10+8 m s-1 divided by ~500x10-9 m = ~6x10+14 cycles per second, or frequency measured in Hertz. The equivalent for Red light is = ~4.3x10+14 Hz.

So what is your “thought experiment” really measuring? Where are the “lost” ~1.7x10+14 Hz? Why would you think they are lost? The definition of “frequency” is, which is what your ("squillion") Hertz represents in SI units, as per “Physics: the number of periods or regularly occurring events of any given kind in unit of time, usually in one second.” So your “squillion” is merely Hertz? And your G redshift is no more than light wavelength stretched into fewer “lost” Hertz? What exactly are you trying to say that’s different from this very simple, err.. "non-thought" experiment, since it’s simple physics?

So exactly what is “lost” per your rules set up on your thought experiment? That the wavelength stretched, i.e. definition “redshift”, into lower frequency? There’s nothing lost here, except in how your thought experiment is set up to measure something that is never lost, only stretched. This is a simple case of “garbage in, garbage out”, and does not quality as any kind of “experiment”, IMHO. Unless you can come up with a better explanation of what you are after here (and gravity redshift is a real phenomenon), you’re spinning your wheels. And if you keep driving there, you is lost boy!

15. What about the gravitational time-dilation that goes hand in hand with gravitational redshift? If the observer is in a place with less gravity than the emitter, as is required to satisfy the conditions that are causing the gravitational redshift, their clock will be running at a faster rate when compared to the clock at the emitter. This is what accounts for the so called "missing numbers" on the counter.

The numbers aren't missing, but from the frame of reference of the outside observer they take a larger amount of seconds to receive than they took to emit from the point of view of the emitter, due to the gravitational time-dilation that goes along with gravitational redshift.

16. Precisely, as speedfreek points out.

A similar effect exists in Doppler effect due to increasing distance there is a delay in receipt of the waves. I.E. if a distancing ambulance horns for 1 second you will here a horn of more than 1 second in duration with the same number of waveform valleys and peaks.

Wikipedia has a detailed article on gravity time dilation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravita..._time_dilation

17. Order of Kilopi
Join Date
Nov 2002
Posts
6,235
Originally Posted by nutant gene 71
Okay, so you set the rules for your “thought experiment” and we’re supposed to play by those rules?

snip.....

Unless you can come up with a better explanation of what you are after here (and gravity redshift is a real phenomenon), you’re spinning your wheels. And if you keep driving there, you is lost boy!
You have learned well... Grasshopper.

18. Originally Posted by Tensor
You have learned well... Grasshopper.
Thanks. And it was not without your help.

19. Established Member
Join Date
Oct 2007
Posts
487
speedfreek

>What about the gravitational time-dilation that goes hand in hand with gravitational redshift? >

Thank you speedfreak.You are the first one to follow what I am trying to say.
There are no extra numbers.The fact that there are no extra numbers can only be
because they were transmitted at a different rate to start with.There is no frequency shift up or down.

Why do I care?.
It annoys me that people say light falls in frequency as it rises through a G gradient.