Sounds like it can fly, it just biffed the landing...Originally Posted by Larry Jacks
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Sounds like it can fly, it just biffed the landing...
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Nope... "That wasn't flying! That was... falling with style".
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Over-all- I agree. I have said this repeatedly. The part you are not understanding in your defensiveness is that I never censored you- I asked you to think rationally and with clarity- Not distortions, exaggeration or inapplicable accusations.
And I not only never said that what the kid did wasn't stupid, in fact I said it was too.
If a stupid, irresponsible act that resulted in the driver's death and the deaths of 4 others doesn't deserve condemnation then nothing does. The driver was a moron. He killed others by his actions. Fortunately, his car didn't hit anyone else after flying 200 feet through the air. I have no sympathy for him. If you do, that's fine but don't expect me to. My sympathy goes to the people he killed, their families and friends, and even to his parents. But not with the driver - ever.
Banned
Originally Posted by Neverfly:
I never said he did ok. I never said it can't be discussed or 'condemned.'
Larry Jacks let's just drop it alright? You are not listening.
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200 ft length for a 85 foot drop implies 60mph speed. Since they hit a tree hard enough to break up the car, 60 mph is a very low estimate.
As for wether the driver is a muderer, I look at it like this: If he were juggling hand grenades and accidently pilled the pin on one, killing everybody, how would he be considered?
If he were playing with a gun and it went off, killing everybody, how would he be considered?
heck, if he had run over 4 strangers and killed them and himself, how would he be considered?
The driver was extemely negligent in his actions, and 5 people died as a result. He should be held accountable for that. So, I agree with Larry. I dont have sympathy for the driver. I reserve it for the families who are affected by this tradgedy.
Banned
This I agree with.
The "suicidal murderer" part I think, crosses the line.
We are talking about an 18 year old kid- who had buddies and a party, testosterone raging and a fast car.
Now HOW OFTEN does this stuff happen? I mean c'mon. List the ingredients and try telling me you wouldn't predict the outcome too. Sheesh.
He's not Jeffrey Dalmer- he was a kid that did something really STUPID.
My heart goes out the friends and families. But it isn't reserved either. There's enough room left over for the dumb kids. I feel for them.
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I think that it's the words that are the only issue between you.
Murder and Suicide are both words that implie an intent.
While this action is homicidal, there does not seem to be intent no matter how stupid it was. In fact, there seems to be no thinking at all.
Banned
Exactly. I agreed with almost everything. I just know too, well... Boys will be boys
This one ended in tragedy.
Mfumbesi gave examples of his own life.
For me, I learned vicariously. Watched other people screw up and avoided many of those mistakes.
Or maybe I had a bit more maturity at their age. I don't know.
So I can side with Larry Jacks example more than Mfumbesi- yet the Idiots get my sympathy too- and I would not feel constrained to treat them like Felony Killers.
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To be fair, there was a scintilla of thought in that an airstrip was chosen, vs. public roads. Teen speeding wrecks are unfortunately common, often taking out other innocent vehicle drivers and their passengers.
Banned
Apparently that strip got used for that a lot.
And they probably made a great many passes before misjudging the distance and losing control of the vehicle. Boosted their confidence. "It won't happen to me."
When that vehicle spun out like it did- went 200 feet? They had time to think then. Can you imagine their thoughts?
Josh was thinking something like, "If I don't die in this, my dad is going to KILL me..."
I've been in so many near death situations myself, not necessarily of this type- but very near death. It is almost robotic and surreal.
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Apparently not:airstrip photoJanuary 27, 2008
..."The local residents did say that it was uncommon for drag racing or any event like that to take place on the airstrip," he [police spokesman] said...The car was registered to Santo G. Ammirato, who was not one of the vehicle's occupants...
Orlando Sentinel
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It's an interesting question. Actually, one of the dictionary definitions of "fly" is "to move through the air at great speed," as in "bullets were flying everywhere". In that sense, the BMW was flying. But true, it wasn't flying in the sense of what birds or airplanes do.
As above, so below
Banned
I was referring to this article:
http://www.ocala.com/article/2008012...glesitemapnews
3/4 down the page:George Borger, who lives next to the airstrip, said he awoke to the sound of car engines at about 3:30 a.m. Saturday.
"I saw them going up and down the runway," he said. "They were flying."
Runway mischief not unusual
Residents in the area told troopers that local teens regularly sneak onto the airstrip via an entrance in a nearby, ungated subdivision."We are used to noise on the runway at night with planes landing," he said. "And we have had teens out there we have had to chase off, but it's so large it's impossible to stop them all. It's a mile and a half runway, so if someone wanted to get out there they can."
Meanwhile, the owner of Greystone Airport, James Garemore, says the teens did not access their airstrip through their property before driving at high speeds down the runway, according to Frank Keasler, Garemore's Jacksonville attorney.
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I'm surprised by how acrimonious this thread has gotten. The hang-up seems to be the word "murder" and its application to the driver. There is another word that is applicable here: "manslaughter". The difference between the two is intent. Evidence strongly suggests that the driver did not intend to commit suicide nor kill his passengers; had he not died in the wreck as long as one of the passengers died he would have been scraped out of the car and wheeled into a courtroom to face trial for manslaughter.
As for the Darwin award, I will not nominate this fool for one; for while he removed himself from the gene pool, he also removed four others whose only mistake was getting in the car and entrusting their lives with him.
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Am I the only one who sees this as a simple case of unbalanced brains to bucks ratio?
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...now.
Banned
No. I was referring to it then. That is why I said what I said then. Sheesh.
Runway mischief not unusual
Residents in the area told troopers that local teens regularly sneak onto the airstrip via an entrance in a nearby, ungated subdivision.
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egggsakly!...
Banned
Huh?
Ok what am I missing here?
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Hee-hee; just checking to see that the lines are straight on Robert Frost's tennis court...Carry on!...Apparently that strip got used for that a lot...
Bad Post-Doc
Not necessarily. Depending on the jurisdiction and the zealousness of the DA, it could well have been deemed "reckless disregard for human life," which could well be deemed murder. When an act is so declared, intent is not at issue. "Should have known better" is.
_____________________________________________
Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
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I'm inclined to also point out there are differences in the definitions of murder/manslaughter between states. And then you have Federal definitions--which don't apply here as this would be a state case.
Anyway, here (Ohio) one would most likely be charged with Vehicular Homicide. But you don't have anyone to charge when the driver's dead...except possibly by the families of the passengers in civil court against the deceased's estate.
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Valid points both. I am not a lawyer, nor have I gone to law school or even played a lawyer on television, so there probably is some subtlety of the law that I missed. And DA discretion does play a large role.
Again I am not a lawyer, so always check your state's laws on the different degrees of murder, manslaughter and vehicular homicide before driving off any embankments!
Of that we may be sure. Of course since the driver was a young man, it will be the estate of the family that they will go after...
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Assuming they do go to civil court. And whether or not they can get that money (IIRC, he was over 18, so legally an adult). But really the civil case that may or may not follow is a deeply personal matter between the families involved.Of that we may be sure. Of course since the driver was a young man, it will be the estate of the family that they will go after...
As for the kids; it's tragic, but it happens. You play with fire, you get burned and all that.
Many young drivers don't really understand the consequences of this type of behavior. I know I did stupid things the first few years I was driving. I know my friends did. Sometimes we were the drivers, sometimes we were the passengers. We were lucky, and nothing major ever happened. Doing what I do now, and going to school for what I went to school for (Insurance and Law Enforcement, respectively), I view driving 100% differently than I did.
The question is, is there a way we can get new drivers to understand the responsability they take when they get behind the wheel, or do we have to leave it to life lessons for them to learn on their own? If the later, then sad things such as this are a tragic but built-in part of the process.
Established Member
btw the BMW M5 messageboard now requires registration to view that thread (I take it it's been hammered hard by all the people viewing it)
I noticed the new Copyright message down the bottom of the page as well that disallows the reposting of board messages elsewhere
R.I.P. Bad Astronomy
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I also wonder a little about how innocent the passengers were. I wonder if they were aware that they would be driving on an airstrip. If they did, and knew that it was a high performance car, and that the driver intended to go very fast, then it seems that they also made a choice to put themselves in a dangerous situation. Kind of like people watching a rally race along the track.
As above, so below
Banned
Of course they knew.
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My guess they new full well, but the conversation went like this.
Hey, dude, stop...were running out of room.
Don't worry there's plenty of time.
Come on man, STOP.
I'll just spin it around at the end of the strip.
AAAAYYYYY.
Established Member
I think an obligatory security training should be added when you want to get your driving license. Maybe they do not get more responsible, but maybe they would learn where the physical limits are and maybe they would even get a little respect of the possible consequences when loosing control over a car. For me it helped a lot!
Established Member
Sorry, I have never seen the request to put the response under the quote but now that I know, I will make it habit. I thought I was making it easier not having to scroll down for the response.
Actually, having been through this when my brother was killed in an accident, intent is the main topic. Intent has everything to do with how you are charged and sentenced, if found guilty of the charge. Now I never actually held it against the friend who was driving and in the end, it was ruled accidental death but the cold fact remained that he was trying to beat a red light and by brother died as a result as well as two other friends hospitalized for months. Perhaps different states have different vehicular laws but I am pretty sure, had the driver survived, they would never make an actual murder charge stick unless they somehow were able to prove that his intent was to kill his friends.
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