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Thread: Star Trek XI- EWWWWWW

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbadon_2008 View Post
    ...with Iron Buterfly's 'In the Garden of Eden' playing in the background...
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Star Trek II was more militaristic than anything that had come before it, introduced everyone wearing a uniform that was the same color (roughly the color of dried blood, in fact), and was a huge hit. Star Trek VI was also much more militaristic than its predecessors, and more popular.
    Deep Space Nine and First Contact did the same, with similar, more militaristic uniforms, and again both were hits compared to other outings.
    actually now that you mention it....there was a fair amount of militarism....

  3. #123
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    Jason; I only disagree with you on the point that the impression of Starfleet vs the impression of the movie or the story are completely different in my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Star Trek II was more militaristic than anything that had come before it
    Not that there was a lot before it. But; the militaristic part was in the way that the scientists viewed starfleet, and in the way the starfleet officers reacted under the influence.
    It was a shock to Kirk to hear what the scientists were saying. And the rest was your normal ST fight scenes.
    Uniforms...it was at least a step up from unitards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Star Trek VI was also much more militaristic than its predecessors, and more popular.
    I wish you could explain this more. Very little of starfleet was portrayed in that movie, and it was the ambassadors making decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Deep Space Nine and First Contact did the same, with similar, more militaristic uniforms, and again both were hits compared to other outings.
    I'm not sure what a non-militaristic uniform would be. DS9 was virtually the same as TNG, just reversed colors (in fact there is at least one episode where the stunt crew got those mixed up)
    I don't remember too much about First Contact, because most of the time they were in period outfits.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    And a Denobulan doctor who was medically documenting his entire assigned mission. And, like, all the Vulcans.
    Except for when Doctor-patient confidentiality comes into play.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Not that there was a lot before it. But; the militaristic part was in the way that the scientists viewed starfleet, and in the way the starfleet officers reacted under the influence.
    And Saavik being addressed as "Mr.", engaged in a combat simulation at Starfleet Academy, and "Admiral on the Bridge" being announced by Sulu everytime Kirk came out of the turbolift, and the crew standing at attention for Kirk's inspection (contrast with the crew assembled in ST:TMP), and Saavik constantly quoting regulations, and any number of other little touches that just gave the movie a much more military feel.

    I wish you could explain this more. Very little of starfleet was portrayed in that movie, and it was the ambassadors making decisions. All of the Starfleet brass have ribbons on their uniforms and discuss mothballing Starfleet as if it's no longer needed now that the Klingons are no longer a threat (implying that Starfleet is primarily a defensive military force).
    Enlisted crewmen are in bunks on both Excelsior and the Enterprise. There is a ship's galley with crewmen working in it. There is a Starfleet colonel proposing a combat extraction of Kirk and Spock in the scenes that were cut from the theatrical release. And again, the whole things has more of a military feel (not surprising, with Nicholas Meyer involved again).

    I'm not sure what a non-militaristic uniform would be. DS9 was virtually the same as TNG, just reversed colors (in fact there is at least one episode where the stunt crew got those mixed up)
    I don't remember too much about First Contact, because most of the time they were in period outfits.
    DS9 switched to the First Contact uniforms at about the same time the movie came out. They are more militaristic because they are more, well, uniform. Only the collars were still in branch colors, with the same gray and black pattern for the rest of it.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    And...
    Ok; I concede that there are some militaristic overtones. But; I'm not sure some of your examples really apply.

    I'm really not sure how you can pull off combat situations without seeming militaristic.

    I'm not sure how you can show a heirarchical command structure, and and academy appearance without seeming militaristic. This may be the most relevent part of the conversation. I'm sure they will show a lot of the "acadamy" in starfleet. But; at the same time, it may show kirk's defiance of command... maybe we will see him finally fool the Kobi-yashi-maru (sp?) simulation.

    Saavik being addressed as "Mr.", engaged in a combat simulation at Starfleet Academy... by "Mr. Spock?"

    , and "Admiral on the Bridge" being announced by Sulu everytime Kirk came out of the turbolift... A bit over the top, but we needed to introduce the new positions and give a feeling of time without going into a lengthy dialog.
    , and the crew standing at attention for Kirk's inspection (contrast with the crew assembled in ST:TMP)... Difference between acadamy training, and actual service.

    , and Saavik constantly quoting regulations, Constantly? A few to build character and interaction, but, ST-TOS had similar references.

    and any number of other little touches that just gave the movie a much more military feel. Yes, the movie does, but the overall impression of starfleet alone doesn't change much to me because of the settings and characters.

    Enlisted crewmen are in bunks on both Excelsior and the Enterprise. There is a ship's galley with crewmen working in it. We never saw the galley, or the enlisted men's quarters before this.

    Again; I think it's the overall feel, settings, and characters of the story itself, that adds to the impression. And the darkness of the visualizations of a movie as apposed to the bright colors of TOS/TNG does make a big impression, but I can say that of Batman.

    And; TOS had these too. Court marshal, crewmen in isolated posts on the ship, dress uniforms, people on report. Definitely not what was later depicted, but the theme had to keep going, and still keep interest in the general populus.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Saavik being addressed as "Mr.", engaged in a combat simulation at Starfleet Academy... by "Mr. Spock?"
    Saavik is addressed as "Mr. Saavik" throughout the movie, not just by Spock.

    Enlisted crewmen are in bunks on both Excelsior and the Enterprise. There is a ship's galley with crewmen working in it. We never saw the galley, or the enlisted men's quarters before this.
    Except Gene Rodenberry said that no one on the Enterprise had a bunk. The bunks are a departure from the original vision towards a more militaristic one.

    When Wrath of Khan came out several long-time fans didn't like it precisely because of the militaristic bent of the movie and the thought that Star Trek had been reduced to "Indiana Skywalker" - action movie status.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Saavik is addressed as "Mr. Saavik" throughout the movie, not just by Spock.
    My point was... Spock was always called Mr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Except Gene Rodenberry said that no one on the Enterprise had a bunk. The bunks are a departure from the original vision towards a more militaristic one.
    Sorry; I just go mostly by what I see. Besides, for a flagship that may be true, but would that hold true fleetwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    When Wrath of Khan came out several long-time fans didn't like it precisely because of the militaristic bent of the movie and the thought that Star Trek had been reduced to "Indiana Skywalker" - action movie status.
    Well; some fans...
    But yes, Rodenberry was looking more utopia-istic(?) about it. But; Hollywood is as Hollywood does, and that applies to more than just ST. In scale with some other oldies, I don't think it's really out of line. But; I do sympathize with you in saying that the ideals are getting watered down. It just depends on how far they are willing to take it.

  9. #129
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    The Enterprise was not called the flagship of Starfleet until The Next Generation.
    And Spock is male. Saavik is not. Calling her Mr. is a military courtesy.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    The Enterprise was not called the flagship of Starfleet until The Next Generation.
    I guess I got that wrong. But; wasn't the Constitution class the biggest at the time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    And Spock is male. Saavik is not. Calling her Mr. is a military courtesy.
    And why does that not hold true for Spock?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    I guess I got that wrong. But; wasn't the Constitution class the biggest at the time?
    Yes, but the Enterprise was only one of 12 ships, and he wasn't the highest ranking officer in command of one. The Constellation and the Lexington both had commodores in command.

    And why does that not hold true for Spock?
    Because Spock would be called "Mr." if he were a civilian too - it's no evidence either way.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Yes, but the Enterprise was only one of 12...
    But; being the same class, it could hold true that cabins and crew capacity would have been on par, thus no need for bunks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Because Spock would be called "Mr." if he were a civilian too - it's no evidence either way.
    Yes; my point...

  13. #133
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    Calling a female officer "Mr." was in keeping with naval practice at the time the movie was made, therefore calling Saavik "Mr. Saavik" is a military courtesy.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Calling a female officer "Mr."
    Do I hear an echo? I thought we agreed that while it could be true of Saavik that it was never established that it wasn't in the same vain with Spock, so we can't give a relative meaning between them.
    Yes; Spock could have been Mr. for other reasons, but I don't think that's the case. I believe it was more like Mr. Roberts.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by banquo's_bumble_puppy View Post
    the introduction of hats to the uniform might suggest a more militaristic Federation/Star Trek.....which goes against everything that Trek is about....
    Hats = militarism?

    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

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  16. #136
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    Personally, I thought the maroon jackets introduced in 'Wrath of Khan' were a big step up from the velour shirts of TOS. Not only did they look like genuine uniforms, buy there was functionality to them. They had pockets, buttons (or was it Velcro?) and epaulets. Very cool-looking, IMO.

    I thought maroon was an odd color, though, for a uniform. But I suppose they wanted to be distinctive, and not resemble modern 20th-century uniforms.

    Nicholas Meyer wrote and directed both 'Wrath of Khan' and 'The Undiscovered Country'. So resemblances between the two films is hardly coincidental.

  17. #137
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    Each set of uniforms --and haircuts!-- is a product of the time the film/show is made in, not the time they're set in.
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    "It is the duty of the writers to seduce me into suspending my disbelief!" Paul Beardsley

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Hats = militarism?
    Indeed... maybe they're propeller beanies.

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  20. #140
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    Didn't they occasionally wear hats (baseball caps) in Enterprise?

  21. #141
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    yes

  22. #142
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    And we all know how militant baseball is.

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