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Thread: Star Trek XI- EWWWWWW

  1. #61
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    It is a bit odd that Guinan's people fled from the Borg to the Federation and then didn't tell them anything about the threat that had caused them to flee.

    Federation Officer: "So you guys are refugees, right?"
    Guinan: "Right."
    "Well the Federation will be glad to accomodate you. So what were you fleeing?"
    "Oh we can't tell you that. We're a race of listeners, not speakers."
    "Isn't whatever it was dangerous?"
    "Oh yes. Maybe you'll find out on your own in another seventy years."
    "You won't give me even a little hint?"
    "Nope."
    "Alrighty then. This way to the presidential suite."

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Missed the point entirely.
    Guinan was introduced several episodes earlier as an "old friend" of Picard's. She also, if memory serves, mentioned her homeworld's destruction prior to the Borg episode. So why didn't her old friend, who knew her planet was destroyed, know anything about the force that destroyed it? If the Borg were already known to the Federation, finding out that they were the reason the El-Aurians were refugees should have been easy for him. Especially as he was a starship captain, with every reason in the world to be apprised of known, dangerous races.
    I don't think Guinan's home planet being destroyed was mentioned before that episode. Either way, it's a problem that was present from the very moment the Borg were introduced, not something that the TV series Enterprise (or even the movies Generations or First Contact) created.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    It is a bit odd that Guinan's people fled from the Borg to the Federation and then didn't tell them anything about the threat that had caused them to flee.

    Federation Officer: "So you guys are refugees, right?"
    Guinan: "Right."
    "Well the Federation will be glad to accomodate you. So what were you fleeing?"
    "Oh we can't tell you that. We're a race of listeners, not speakers."
    "Isn't whatever it was dangerous?"
    "Oh yes. Maybe you'll find out on your own in another seventy years."
    "You won't give me even a little hint?"
    "Nope."
    "Alrighty then. This way to the presidential suite."
    Sure, but...can anyone honestly say that when they originally watched the episode Q Who?, they had the thought, "Hey, how come the Federation doesn't already know all about these guys if they destroyed Guinan's planet?"

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Either way, it's a problem that was present from the very moment the Borg were introduced, not something that the TV series Enterprise (or even the movies Generations or First Contact) created.
    Either we're talking about two different problems, or one of us needs a cookie. I'm talking about the continuity between various Star Trek series. How can it be "a problem" that's "present from the very moment the Borg were introduced" when the other series didn't exist yet? Nor even the later TNG Borg episodes?
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  4. #64
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    Which basically means that it was a break in continuity to have Guinan's people destroyed by the Borg and also show them entering the Federation as refugees in the 23rd century.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Which basically means that it was a break in continuity to have Guinan's people destroyed by the Borg and also show them entering the Federation as refugees in the 23rd century.
    Yeah, TPTB wanted Guinan to meet Kirk, so they had to come up with a contrived solution.
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Either we're talking about two different problems, or one of us needs a cookie. I'm talking about the continuity between various Star Trek series. How can it be "a problem" that's "present from the very moment the Borg were introduced" when the other series didn't exist yet? Nor even the later TNG Borg episodes?
    The TNG episode Q Who?, which introduced the Borg, established both that the Borg had destroyed Guinan's homeworld and that the Federation knew essentially nothing about the Borg prior to the events of that episode. So your complaint:
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Picard, as a historian, should have known something about the Borg, if they were known at that time, especially since he was friends with Guinan and knew that her homeworld had been destroyed.
    Is entirely contained within that one episode.

    Well, of course, the facts that Picard was an amateur archaeologist and that he was long-time friends with Guinan are established separately, but you get my point.

    EDIT: Wait a second, you're saying that the later movies/series essentially established that the Federation did know about the Borg prior to the episode Q Who?, and so it's only contradictory that Picard himself apparently didn't. Is that it?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    EDIT: Wait a second, you're saying that the later movies/series essentially established that the Federation did know about the Borg prior to the episode Q Who?, and so it's only contradictory that Picard himself apparently didn't. Is that it?
    No, it's all contradictory. No one knew then (except Guinan, and she didn't tell anyone until the Enterprise-D had already seen the Borg. Thanks for the heads-up, Whoopie.)

    EDIT: The later series were what I meant about patched-together pseudo-continuity.
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  8. #68
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    The writers didn't even try to make it work, they just threw in whatever they wanted and said "Don't take it too seriously, it's just a TV show". A sloppy attitude. When you don't take your work seriously, you produce shoddy work. Would you fly in a plane built by someone who said the wing design was "eh, close enough."?
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Would you fly in a plane built by someone who said the wing design was "eh, close enough."?
    No; but an airplane designer is trying to get ALL the passengers to a destination. Not just a large portion of them.

  10. #70
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    Showing a lack of respect for continuity is showing a lack of respect for the material you are producing. An audience senses when a director or writer feels that the material is "beneath them".

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    No, it's all contradictory. No one knew then (except Guinan, and she didn't tell anyone until the Enterprise-D had already seen the Borg. Thanks for the heads-up, Whoopie.)

    EDIT: The later series were what I meant about patched-together pseudo-continuity.
    Oh, I agree that the later series weren't too good at maintaining continuity with the earlier. I just don't think that "Guinan's-home-planet-was-destroyed-by-the-Borg-but-we-didn't-know-about-them" counts as a failure on the later series' part.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Oh, I agree that the later series weren't too good at maintaining continuity with the earlier. I just don't think that "Guinan's-home-planet-was-destroyed-by-the-Borg-but-we-didn't-know-about-them" counts as a failure on the later series' part.
    I didn't say that part was a failure. (Or at least, I wasn't trying to say that.) I was just using that as an indicator of the fact that the Borg weren't known to anybody in the Federation at the time--or to the writers of TNG, prior to Q Who?
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  13. #73
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    If you look at it now, you could say that Guinan is responsible for the deaths of 18 crewmembers in that first encounter with the Borg, since if Picard had knowns about the Borg earlier Q wouldn't have been motivated to show them the Borg as an example of the scary stuff out there.

  14. #74
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    Haha, much like resistance, debating continuity with the Borg is futile.

    The Borg, their motives, their "culture" and their time line within the Trek Universe changes each and every episode of Next Generation, Voyager and Enterprise.

    It's insane.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    If you look at it now, you could say that Guinan is responsible for the deaths of 18 crewmembers in that first encounter with the Borg, since if Picard had knowns about the Borg earlier Q wouldn't have been motivated to show them the Borg as an example of the scary stuff out there.
    I hate to rationalize something for the writers, but this can make a sort of sense: Guinan knew how curious humans are, and knew what happened even to races with advanced technology when they ran up against the Borg. She didn't like what Q did, because it was precisely something she had been avoiding. She know as well as Q did that humans were arrogant, and very willing to take chances when exploring. If Guinan had said more, and the Feds had sent their best ships to attempt to make contact earlier, it might simply have meant they got the interest of the Borg that much earlier. The Feds would be even less ready for the event.

    When the Borg came back, Guinan said that we would "prevail" in the sense that a few would escape, but it was clear she didn't think that the Federation would survive. Guinan may have always expected that the Federation would be destroyed eventually, as the Borg expanded. She just didn't want the end to come sooner than it had to.

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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    I hate to rationalize something for the writers, but this can make a sort of sense: Guinan knew how curious humans are, and knew what happened even to races with advanced technology when they ran up against the Borg. She didn't like what Q did, because it was precisely something she had been avoiding. She know as well as Q did that humans were arrogant, and very willing to take chances when exploring. If Guinan had said more, and the Feds had sent their best ships to attempt to make contact earlier, it might simply have meant they got the interest of the Borg that much earlier. The Feds would be even less ready for the event.

    When the Borg came back, Guinan said that we would "prevail" in the sense that a few would escape, but it was clear she didn't think that the Federation would survive. Guinan may have always expected that the Federation would be destroyed eventually, as the Borg expanded. She just didn't want the end to come sooner than it had to.
    I think that's giving the writers way too much credit. I'm pretty sure they didn't think much about it at all, they just said, "Hey, why don't we make some kind of connection between Whoopie Goldberg's character and these 'Borg'? They killed her father! No, even better, her whole planet! That would be cool!"
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by erisi236 View Post
    The Borg, their motives, their "culture" and their time line within the Trek Universe changes each and every episode of Next Generation, Voyager and Enterprise.
    Be fair--it only changed with every episode that mentioned the Borg. There were literally dozens of TNG episodes that didn't, and there were probably at least five of Voyager that didn't. I don't know about Enterprise; not even Scott Bakula could save that show for me.
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    I don't know about Enterprise; not even Scott Bakula could save that show for me.
    He killed it for me. Terrible miscasting. As right as he was for Quantum Leap, that's exactly how out-of-place he was in Enterprise.

    But he was far from the worst thing about it.
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    He killed it for me. Terrible miscasting. As right as he was for Quantum Leap, that's exactly how out-of-place he was in Enterprise.

    But he was far from the worst thing about it.
    Even worse was tapping Quantum Leap memes during the series, like the guy from the future giving him advice...

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    I did like the dog though. Most likable character since Spot!

  21. #81
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    I've seen some of those online clips, you know the type of viral marketing J J Abrams is notorious for. I was really happy to hear about the cast, Eric Bana as the bad guy sounds great, Zachary Quinto from 24/Heroes, the talented Winona Ryder and our beloved Leonard Nimoy, I also like what I've been hearing of the storyline.

    However with what I've seen from the marketing or leaks I'm not very happy with the movie's visual look, its too dirty or too black or too much like a heavy metal illustration . Frankly I'm not impressed, it appears the colors, feel and spirit of trek is getting lost in some kind of dark, glum re-imagining. I loved hearing about the story and cast members its the look that disappoints me, and I hope we don't see those shakey-cam FX or I fear our classic Star Trek universe might start looking more like reimagined BSG or those Aliens films.

  22. #82
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    I was in an earlier debate as to whether Abrams should advertise the movie at all. The idea was that any information or pictures that get out will instantly sprout criticism from the grognards. My friend was of the opinion that no information at all might be better than giving the fans reasons not to see it before hand.
    I think the fans will go see it no matter how badly the previews seem to paint it.

  23. #83
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    its too dirty or too black or too much like a heavy metal illustration

    I personally like the idea of putting 'heavy metal' into SF, especially a 'reimagined' Trek project.

    I can envision a segment with a wicked-looking starship against a psychedelic nebula and expanse of stars...with Iron Buterfly's 'In the Garden of Eden' playing in the background.

    Music for such projects doesn't HAVE to be contemporary classical compositions.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Launch window View Post
    However with what I've seen from the marketing or leaks I'm not very happy with the movie's visual look, its too dirty or too black or too much like a heavy metal illustration .
    Considering how frelling antiseptic the original was, I'm cool with that.

    I think its an improvement on the scale of the recent Batman redeux versus Adam West's version.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodler View Post
    Considering how frelling antiseptic the original was, I'm cool with that.

    I think its an improvement on the scale of the recent Batman redeux versus Adam West's version.
    but the thing that bothers me is we already know some of the Trek universe very well and we aren't really getting anything new. Elements of the story appeal to me and I think the cast is right but there's a chance its just old stuff re-vamped or re-painted in a dark, Gothic way with that whole shakey cam style added in. The new Batman in 2005 worked for me because it wasn't a scene for scene remake like those revamped horror movies Hollywood keeping belching out lately, the new Batman had a good story, it also had great actors and it was very different to what had gone before. Nobody did the idea of exploring the history of Bruce Wayne, plus it had new characters like Scarecrow and the mob boss Carmine Falcone. Now I understand Ledger was a great actor, his work was well respected before his untimely death but I ask why remake the Joker ? To me the idea of re-working the Joker story was pretty pointless when Jack Nicholson already captured the character perfectly in 1989. So far I'm not really happy with the teasers or leaked photos on this Trek movie, I'm sure some of the pics might be photoshopped fakes so then again we just have to wait for Star Trek to hit the cinemas to judge for ourselves

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Launch window View Post
    Nobody did the idea of exploring the history of Bruce Wayne, plus it had new characters like Scarecrow and the mob boss Carmine Falcone. Now I understand Ledger was a great actor, his work was well respected before his untimely death but I ask why remake the Joker ? To me the idea of re-working the Joker story was pretty pointless when Jack Nicholson already captured the character perfectly in 1989.
    It may not have been in the films, but neither of those characters are actually new. You might well ask why they'd bothered doing the Joker in the animated shows. Mark Hamill's animated Joker was excellent; he captured the character perfectly. But they still have the Joker in the new series, The Batman, because you can't really have Batman without bringing the Joker in eventually. (I also recommend seeking out a trailer for the new movie; Heath Ledger does the darker Joker better than you might expect. Or did, anyway.)

    Still, the reason you can do that for Batman is that the characters weren't defined by which actor played them in a way that simply isn't true for any Star Trek character.
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Still, the reason you can do that for Batman is that the characters weren't defined by which actor played them in a way that simply isn't true for any Star Trek character.
    Exactly. Batman was Batman before anyone played him. But Shatner is Kirk. Nimoy is Spock (despite his book title). The characters are just too closely tied to their actors for anyone else to really make them their own; what we'll see is a bunch of guys doing impressions for two hours.
    I'm a cynical optimist. I think the only way out is through, but once we get through it'll be better. Very different, but better. Howard Tayler

    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. Charles Darwin

    Power, Lord Acton says, corrupts. Not always. What power always does is reveal. Robert A. Caro

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Exactly. Batman was Batman before anyone played him. But Shatner is Kirk. Nimoy is Spock (despite his book title). The characters are just too closely tied to their actors for anyone else to really make them their own; what we'll see is a bunch of guys doing impressions for two hours.
    That's my fear, too.

    BTW, Nimoy later wrote a second book titled "I am Spock."

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    The trouble is that Enterprise had all the things that people a hundred or two hundred years later were surprised to see for the very first time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    First contact with the Borg...
    Yeah, time travel will throw a monkeywrench into any attempt at continuity.


    ...and Ferengi
    And ENT"Acquisition" made a point of never conveying the word "Ferengi" to human characters (if it was ever used at all), hence the name wasn't associated with their physical appearance 200-odd years later. (And for that matter, the first human contact with Ferengi, who identified themselves thusly, occurred in 1947. See time travel note above.)


    holodecks (Unexpected)
    Yes, some characters experienced surprise at their first personal experience with a holodeck in the 24th century, but that doesn't make holodeck technology a recent innovation, or even a recent Federation innovation. Their presence on Fed starships dates back at least to the 23rd century (TAS"The Practical Joker", in which nobody was surprised to see one for the first time), if one considers TAS canon.

    (Though I did mentally barf at the term "resequenced photons." )


    replicators (Dead Stop)
    Who was surprised to see replicators for the very first time in the 24th century? (aside from the Bringloidi)


    Ponn Farr.
    Eh, that one's a toss-up. Sure, a few humans might have learned about it in the 2150's, but that wouldn't necessarily make it common knowledge among humans a century later.
    Last edited by DataCable; 2008-Jan-27 at 04:49 PM. Reason: speling

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Guinan was introduced several episodes earlier as an "old friend" of Picard's.
    Actually, she told Wesley in her introductory episode that she and the captain didn't meet until she came on board.

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