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Thread: Recharging batteries?

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I don't have a clue how batteries work either, after reading this thread. What I thought I knew turns out to be wrong. That's how learning happens.
    I'll try the most basic explanation I can give. But you'll need some basic high school chemistry (what a chemical reaction is, atoms and ions and electrons) to understand it.

    In many chemical reactions, electrons move. For example, if we take zinc metal and oxidise it, we convert it to a zinc salt, which contains zinc ions, which are positively charged.The normal zinc ion has two charges per atom, which we write Zn++. So each zinc atom has lost two electrons. They have to go somewhere. If the zinc was oxidised by “rusting” it in air, it would be the atmospheric oxygen that would take those two electrons, ie the O2 oxygen molecules are “reduced” to O-- ions. The result would be ZnO, zinc oxide, an ionic solid made up of positive zinc ions and negative oxygen ions. “Reduction” is the counterpart of “oxidation”, and oxidation doesn’t have to be done by oxygen, it can be done by any “oxidizing agent”. In essence, oxidation is giving up electrons, and reduction is accepting them. Whenever an oxidation takes place, giving up electrons, a reduction has to take place, accepting them, so that the total number of electrons remains constant.

    The clever trick in an electric cell is to separate the oxidation and reduction reactions into separate locations – the anode and the cathode – so that electrons delivered from the oxidation (at the anode) flow to the reduction (at the cathode) through an electric circuit that connects them. Since we need a complete cycle, to make the total charge balance, we need to connect the electrodes by a second route, which is the electrolyte (a solution containing ions), which allows the charge to balance by the flow of the ions in that electrolyte. The lemon or potato, (or something more sophisticated if you look at the electrochemistry lessons I mentioned) acts as the electrolyte connection.

    Having actually set up our two electrodes, the reason that the current actually flows, powering our electric gizmo, is that the oxidation and reduction reactions are, on balance, energetically favoured. The oxidation of zinc to zinc ions generates energy, so it "wants" to happen. (Actually it is a bit more complicated than just energy, because entropy comes into it too, but that is beyond the scope of this lesson.) In the case of Ronald’s lemon/potato cell, the reduction at the cathode is the reduction of hydrogen ions to molecular hydrogen. Now that is not energetically favoured, but the oxidation of the zinc is more energetically favoured than the reduction of the hydrogen. So the zinc oxidation is powering the reduction of the hydrogen ions, and has some energy left over to power the electric circuit. Or alternatively, some of the energy in oxidising the zinc is lost in generating the hydrogen. Of course, we could get some of that back by burning the hydrogen.

    (You can probably see here why it was a simplification to say that the lemon/potato cell worked because copper is more electronegative than zinc. What actually matters is the potential of the Cu/H+ electrode in comparison to the potential of the Zn/Zn++ electrode. Likewise in the zinc carbon battery, the cathode is a C/MnO2 electrode, rather than just carbon.)

    The original energy to power this potato/lemon cell came from the manufacturing process to make the zinc metal out of zinc ore. There are fraudulent adverts in various places which give the impression that the energy comes from the lemon or potato, so that this is a way of harvesting the sun’s energy in growing the plant to convert it to electricity. Ronald appears to have seen one such fraudulent advert in one of his earlier posts, because he suggests, as they do, that the energy came from the plant matter, not the metal.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
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    4,158
    There was a constructional project in an
    electronics magszine some years ago for a
    device for "rejuvenating" ordinary cells.
    It ueed current limited pulses through the
    cell. It could get half as much life again
    from one charge, something less from a
    further charge then the cell should be
    disposed of. A manufacturer was asked to
    comment and of course they took a dim view
    of the idea, could be dangerous etc. Almost
    shooting themselves in the foot as cells
    must be safe against accidental short
    circuits. They should not explode but
    safely expire, just perhaps getting a
    bit hot.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,430
    Slightly OT . . .

    I have a (dumb?) question about battery chargers: Aside from the little light that shows that it is plugged in, does a battery charger draw any power when it it not connected to the item/battery it is charging?

  4. #34
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    Apr 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucson_Tim View Post
    Slightly OT . . .

    I have a (dumb?) question about battery chargers: Aside from the little light that shows that it is plugged in, does a battery charger draw any power when it it not connected to the item/battery it is charging?
    If it's plugged in, there's a current. I don't know of any that have an off-switch, but if there are, then it breaks the circuit and no current flows.
    STARGAZING: All I see are the lights of a billion places I'll never go. --Howard Tayler, Schlock Mercenary

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    11,219
    A zucchini isn't a lemon, either. I tried to squeeze slices of zucchini
    on my fish at a restaurant a few months ago. I realized something
    was amiss while working on the third slice. I wondered if the waitress
    noticed the squished zucchini on my plate when she took it away.

    I knew that the cathode and anode played essential roles in
    releasing the energy from the lemontato, and didn't merely serve
    as pathways for the electrons, but I thought I'd just point out
    the obvious to get things started, and let those who are more
    familiar with the inner workings of batteries do the rest.

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis
    http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

    "I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
    were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

    "The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
    point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    675
    I guess most important is 3dknight got input enough to find the answers. I myself have the problem that usually I rely on my memory, not looking up everything before posting. I admit that sometimes this may lead to some confusion.

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