Clumping Up is a Feature of a Vortex.

[astrocat]

When you stir your cofee, where do all the bubbles collect?

[01101001]

When you stir your cofee, where do all the bubbles collect?

No coffee. But I had some small amount of oil in water and when I stirred that, the oil droplets rose to the surface, and spun around, all over the surface -- not just the middle of the vortex.

[astrocat]

No coffee.

Point # 1... You didn't answer the question.

But I had some small amount of oil in water

Point # 2, ...Don't you mean on water, as in - floating on water?

and when I stirred that, the oil droplets rose to the surface,

Are these oil droplets heavier or lighter than water?

and spun around, all over the surface

Like it wasn't lieing on the surface ? Evenly spread, finding its own level?

-- not just the middle of the vortex.

No, I don't expect this oil, being a liquid, to form clumps in the middle. I understand oil spreads rapidly on water, the depth of the oil layer declining all the time. If it's just a 'skim' I doubt it would form a clump in the middle, but it might.

[Van Rijn]

astrocat, a question for you: What is the ATM argument you are proposing in this thread? Or is this a general science question?

[Hornblower]

On the surface of a rapidly rotating body of liquid I would expect bubbles to collect in the center. In an old fashioned centrifugal cream separator the cream does the same thing. (I date myself with this one. My mother spent her teen years on a small family farm in the 1930's.)

We can get clumping without a vortex or other such rotation. Lumpy gravy is a case in point.

Again, what does this have to do with cosmic clumping?

[01101001]

Point # 1... You didn't answer the question.

Guilty. What's the penalty, officer?

As I stated, I didn't have access to coffee. I thought I could help you with your thesis about clumping. You do have a thesis about clumping, don't you? What is it? The question was too hard for me to get the conclusion!

Point # 2, ...Don't you mean on water, as in - floating on water?

Oh dear. Oil in water. Then oil on water. I didn't feel I should try to control the oil. I just let it go where it would. Like bubbles in coffee.

Are these oil droplets heavier or lighter than water?

Tough one. There was much more water than oil, several orders of magnitude, so I'd have to say the water was heavier. Well, hey, the oil droplets floated. Like bubbles in coffee. As I recall my grade-school science, that means they were less dense than water. Agree? But, it could have been a surface-tension thing, though, like one can float a steel needle on top of water. It was olive oil. Conditions were at near sea level and room temperature. Probably less dense, huh? Extra virgin! Should I look it up on the Web?

Like it wasn't lieing on the surface ? Evenly spread, finding its own level?

Lying? Just a lot of droplets, especially after stirring. There was not enough oil for it to lie on the surface as a layer. It was not evenly spread. Picture "bubbles" of oil on water. Like bubbles in coffee.

No, I don't expect this oil, being a liquid, to form clumps in the middle. I understand oil spreads rapidly on water, the depth of the oil layer declining all the time. If it's just a 'skim' I doubt it would form a clump in the middle, but it might.

The oil, sure didn't form clumps in the middle, but, like I said, the droplets also didn't form a layer, didn't spread rapidly as you seem to think you understand. The droplets just drifted about in the vortex current. Sometimes two droplets would merge to form one larger. Clumping? But, they kept doing that even after the vortex was no longer observable.

I guess clumping up isn't a feature of a vortex, eh? How do bubbles of air in coffee act? Different? Why do you suppose bubbles of air and bubbles of oil act differently? Would decaf make a difference?

Do you plan on making other fascinating assertions in the exciting field of culinary science? About marshmallows in hot cocoa? Barley in soup? Do you like barley in soup as much as I do? Blueberries in heavy cream? Mmm.

Glad I could help.

[astrocat]

astrocat, a question for you: What is the ATM argument you are proposing in this thread? Or is this a general science question?

Science is an all-encompassing field to me. It's all one. Relative. I posed a question, and have not yet received an answer. I simply wonder why?

[astrocat]

On the surface of a rapidly rotating body of liquid I would expect bubbles to collect in the center.

You win, Hornblower, my respect.

In an old fashioned centrifugal cream separator the cream does the same thing. (I date myself with this one. My mother spent her teen years on a small family farm in the 1930's.)

Great example.

We can get clumping without a vortex or other such rotation. Lumpy gravy is a case in point.

... not cle ar about that one. Was a clumping agent added? Was there stirring?

I thought about how, in the corner of a building, where a mini-twister gathers the detritus into a neat central clump, or say, dissolving salt in a bowl, when I stirred it, how the salt clumped up on the bottom...

Even the vortex at the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner - where particles of dust become clumps... It's almost like, to me, that this clumping up happens exponentially towards the center of a vortex.

Again, what does this have to do with cosmic clumping?

I'm not at this point sure, but does Mainstream Science admit to the likely-hood/ possibility, no matter how faint, of Vorteces (plural of vortex) in Space?

[jamini]

astrocat - Do you have an ATM theory to present? If so, will it be accompanied with actual math and physics predicated on a thorough understanding of mainstream science or just another series of disarticulated misrepresentations of mainstream views, obfuscated and strung together to form a convoluted distortion of your own personal beliefs? In other words, how will this presentation demonstrably differ from your last few unfounded and incoherent diatribes?

[astrocat]

Guilty. What's the penalty, officer?

Quite okay, 01101001, long as I know where you're coming from.

As I stated, I didn't have access to coffee.

It's okay, I guess....

I thought I could help you with your thesis about clumping. You do have a thesis about clumping, don't you? What is it? The question was too hard for me to get the conclusion!

Sorry, if it taxed your 'magination.

Oh dear. Oil in water. Then oil on water. I didn't feel I should try to control the oil. I just let it go where it would. Like bubbles in coffee.



Tough one. There was much more water than oil, several orders of magnitude, so I'd have to say the water was heavier. Well, hey, the oil droplets floated. Like bubbles in coffee. As I recall my grade-school science, that means they were less dense than water. Agree?

Tough one? Are we being honest here? Bear in mind, 01101001, I know your angle. Yes, of course, I agree with you.

But, it could have been a surface-tension thing, though, like one can float a steel needle on top of water. It was olive oil. Conditions were at near sea level and room temperature. Probably less dense, huh? Extra virgin! Should I look it up on the Web?

Aha! We find out. Surface tension.. Olive oil... Why didn't you say this right away? And yes again, you may certainly look it up on the Web.

Lying? Just a lot of droplets, especially after stirring. There was not enough oil for it to lie on the surface as a layer. It was not evenly spread. Picture "bubbles" of oil on water. Like bubbles in coffee.

Like lots of little clumps right?

The oil, sure didn't form clumps in the middle, but, like I said, the droplets also didn't form a layer, didn't spread rapidly as you seem to think you understand.

Thanks for settin' me straight on that.

The droplets just drifted about in the vortex current. Sometimes two droplets would merge to form one larger. Clumping? But, they kept doing that even after the vortex was no longer observable.

I still think, because this oil is lighter than water, and like cream floating on milk, that if this oil was in a container that was big enough, and you stirred it, it would tend to clump up in the center, altho' this may not be immediately obvious.

I guess clumping up isn't a feature of a vortex, eh? How do bubbles of air in coffee act? Different? Why do you suppose bubbles of air and bubbles of oil act differently? Would decaf make a difference?

Can't see it, huh?

Do you plan on making other fascinating assertions in the exciting field of culinary science? About marshmallows in hot cocoa? Barley in soup? Do you like barley in soup as much as I do? Blueberries in heavy cream? Mmm.

Glad I could help.

No problem, 01101001 - if I got the number wrong, I apologise.

[astrocat]

astrocat - Do you have an ATM theory to present? If so, will it be accompanied with actual math and physics predicated on a thorough understanding of mainstream science or just another series of disarticulated misrepresentations of mainstream views, obfuscated and strung together to form a convoluted distortion of your own personal beliefs? In other words, how will this presentation demonstrably differ from your last few unfounded and incoherent diatribes?

Yes I have an ATM theory to present. I have a fairly good grasp of the laws that govern my views, and not 'just another....'

I have faith in these laws to see me through. This presentation will differ - and has, so far differed, from my last 'few' ... 'diatribes' - wow! by 'exploring' the possibilities of vorteces in Space, if there are any... Is this a valid subject? Or not?

[jamini]

Yes I have an ATM theory to present. I have a fairly good grasp of the laws that govern my views, and not 'just another....'

I have faith in these laws to see me through. This presentation will differ - and has, so far differed, from my last 'few' ... 'diatribes' - wow! by 'exploring' the possibilities of vorteces [sic] in Space, if there are any... Is this a valid subject? Or not?

Vortexes in space is a valid concept and congruent with GR, to the extent that matter warps spacetime. However, as you started a topic in the ATM section, it suggests that you are alluding to the whole of space existing as some type of rotating Godel model. If that’s the case, as you argued in other similar topics, then I would expect to see your corresponding physics presented forthwith. For instance, what manifold, metrics and tensors will you be using to describe the parameters that comprise your model?

[01101001]

I still think, because this oil is lighter than water, and like cream floating on milk, that if this oil was in a container that was big enough, and you stirred it, it would tend to clump up in the center, altho' this may not be immediately obvious.

I looked at the experiment again today. All visible rotation had ceased hours ago. There were a couple hundred oil droplets now floating on the surface of the water. One was about the size of a US quarter-dollar coin, one a nickel, two like dimes, maybe 6 half that size, and the rest, smaller and smaller and more numerous. One of the dime-size drops occupied the center. The rest were pretty evenly distributed about, to me, in no way suggesting that there ever had been a vortex.

When the vortex was in action, there didn't seem to be any more clumping, if you will, droplet-joining, in the center than elsewhere. As I recall there may even have been a little less. Most of it seemed to occur in the space in between the center and the cup itself, where there was the most movement.

OK, I'll rerun it and see if there's anything special about the center of the vortex. Done. Had to change a variable. Can you believe I'm out of olive oil? I switched to canola. It seemed to behave likewise. The droplet joining, while the vortex was vigorous, definitely happened away from the center. The largest joinings actually were happening closer to the outer edge than the center. Sorry, I can't watch it all day. Dum-de-dum. Five minutes later now, rotation is imperceptible and the most oil-free area of the surface is the center. Why do you suppose?

Can you explain why I am reporting this and what your conclusion is? It still isn't clear to me what you are claiming. What property of the vortex is it that makes the oil droplets tend to do their hooking up away from the center?

More data: I spied some orange oil for wood furniture and decided to try that. It's a lighter oil, less viscous than the olive and canola. Smells good, too. Its droplets, too, avoided the vortex center, and of course avoided joining up there, and did something different at the edge: formed a "droplet" so large that it became a solid ring of floating orange oil around the outside edge -- as far from the center as it could get. Fascinating.

[mugaliens]

So you're postulating that the center of our Galaxies would exist predominantly of lighter elements, while the nether regions would exist predominantly of heavier elements?

[Van Rijn]

Yes I have an ATM theory to present. I have a fairly good grasp of the laws that govern my views, and not 'just another....'

Then by all means, present it. What is your ATM argument for this thread?

[Van Rijn]

Science is an all-encompassing field to me. It's all one. Relative. I posed a question, and have not yet received an answer. I simply wonder why?

Because this is the ATM section. That's why I asked if your OP was a general science question, or if you were proposing an ATM argument. If it was a general science question, then it would be better to ask it in the general science section. It isn't space or astronomy related, so it doesn't belong in Q&A, and if it is part of an ATM argument, it's up to you to show that.

[astrocat]

I looked at the experiment again today. All visible rotation had ceased hours ago. There were a couple hundred oil droplets now floating on the surface of the water. One was about the size of a US quarter-dollar coin, one a nickel, two like dimes, maybe 6 half that size, and the rest, smaller and smaller and more numerous. One of the dime-size drops occupied the center. The rest were pretty evenly distributed about, to me, in no way suggesting that there ever had been a vortex.

Of course, one can find an exception to almost any rule. I guess surface tension and other extraneous matters caused you to have difficultywith the experiment.

When the vortex was in action, there didn't seem to be any more clumping, if you will, droplet-joining, in the center than elsewhere. As I recall there may even have been a little less. Most of it seemed to occur in the space in between the center and the cup itself, where there was the most movement.

I think I'd have to be there.

OK, I'll rerun it and see if there's anything special about the center of the vortex. Done. Had to change a variable. Can you believe I'm out of olive oil? I switched to canola. It seemed to behave likewise. The droplet joining, while the vortex was vigorous, definitely happened away from the center. The largest joinings actually were happening closer to the outer edge than the center. Sorry, I can't watch it all day. Dum-de-dum. Five minutes later now, rotation is imperceptible and the most oil-free area of the surface is the center. Why do you suppose?

Surface tension? There could be any number of reasons why that experiment failed to convince you.

Can you explain why I am reporting this and what your conclusion is?

I assume you are reporting this in an effort to refute my argument. I conclude that I don't think you've suceeded.

It still isn't clear to me what you are claiming.

That Clumping Up is a feature of a vortex.

What property of the vortex is it that makes the oil droplets tend to do their hooking up away from the center?

I'm beginning to wonder if oil droplets make the best example.

More data: I spied some orange oil for wood furniture and decided to try that. It's a lighter oil, less viscous than the olive and canola. Smells good, too. Its droplets, too, avoided the vortex center, and of course avoided joining up there, and did something different at the edge: formed a "droplet" so large that it became a solid ring of floating orange oil around the outside edge -- as far from the center as it could get. Fascinating.

Except you forgot something....

Originally, you had a needle suspended on the surface of the oil. Check it out! Now, while you were stirring, and all the rest, you didn't notice it slip away from the oil, and sink to the bottom.

I'm a scientist, you see, and if a needle is part of the experiment - I want to see it mentioned in the conclusion. l looked for this needle (you didn't know I was there) and after you had done all your stirring, I saw it - turning slowly in the current, there - right there - on the bottom, in the center.

[astrocat]

Because this is the ATM section. That's why I asked if your OP was a general science question, or if you were proposing an ATM argument. If it was a general science question, then it would be better to ask it in the general science section. It isn't space or astronomy related, so it doesn't belong in Q&A, and if it is part of an ATM argument, it's up to you to show that.

I'm presently investigating the 'likelyhood/ impossibility' of finding a vortex in Space. I need help here. What is the mainstream view?

[astrocat]

So you're postulating that the center of our Galaxies would exist predominantly of lighter elements, while the nether regions would exist predominantly of heavier elements?

Good question. Yes, so far, there have been 'bandied about' various vortices with the lighter material (for example 'cream in a rotating vat of milk) rising to the top center. But what if the 'clumping material' was denser than the medium in which it travelled..?

I was dissolving salt in a bowl of water - and when I stirred, the salt formed a central clump on the bottom. Anybody have a similar experience?

[astrocat]

Vortexes in space is a valid concept and congruent with GR, to the extent that matter warps spacetime.

Again, and for the fourth time now, I find myself thanking you for your most valuable input.

However, as you started a topic in the ATM section, it suggests that you are alluding to the whole of space existing as some type of rotating Godel model.

Godel? don't tell me someone beat me to it!

I'll certainly research that, and get back to you.

If that’s the case, as you argued in other similar topics, then I would expect to see your corresponding physics presented forthwith. For instance, what manifold, metrics and tensors will you be using to describe the parameters that comprise your model?

Manifold, Metrics and Tensor. Yes, of course, Jamini. Right away.

[tusenfem]

Is there actually an ATM theory presented here, or is there a question being asked here? What is it that astrocat is trying to get to know? If there are vortices in space? Then this should be in Q&A. Or does the cat want to present a model of the universe where all matter is constructed by vortices, if so, then indeed this has already been presented a long time ago by Rene Descartes (1596 - 1650).

Juste being quite puzzled by this whole thread.

[John Mendenhall]

Vortexes

One vortex, two vortices.

[John Mendenhall]

I'm presently investigating the 'likelyhood/ impossibility' of finding a vortex in Space. I need help here. What is the mainstream view?

What kind of vortex? Matter? Space? Time? What scale?

[Mister Earl]

What kind of vortex? Matter? Space? Time? What scale?

Yes, it would help to understand the theory being put forth if we knew what medium the vortex is proposed to exist in.

[astrocat]

Is there actually an ATM theory presented here, or is there a question being asked here? What is it that astrocat is trying to get to know? If there are vortices in space?

I'm sure there are vortices in Space. I just wondered if anybody else knew of any?

Or does the cat want to present a model of the universe where all matter is constructed by vortices, if so, then indeed this has already been presented a long time ago by Rene Descartes (1596 - 1650).

My reading tells me Descartes thought of the Solar System as a Vortex. Not my feeling at all.

Juste being quite puzzled by this whole thread.

Clumping Up is a genuine Physical Phenomenon, with a When, where, why and how.
I think the discovery that 'Clumping Up is a feature of a vortex' is an important statement in Science.

[astrocat]

One vortex, two vortices.

Thank you, John Mendenhall.

[astrocat]

What kind of vortex? Matter? Space? Time? What scale?

Any Vortex. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me about 'The Vortex in such and such a place...' in the sky.

Vortices come in different shapes, some long and thin w. long tails. Others are basically flat, lying horizontally.

Yes, vortices made of matter, in Space. I imagine some must be huge!

[astrocat]

Yes, it would help to understand the theory being put forth if we knew what medium the vortex is proposed to exist in.

Hi, Mr. Earl. I see two different types of Vortex - active and passive.

A passive vortex is one you create thru' stirring. It goes for a while, and then peters out.

An Active vortex is one with a 'motor', like the one created by a Vacuum Cleaner (electric motor) or a sinkful of water when you pull the plug (Gravity operated). This type requires no human input.

Two Active Vortices, two different media - air and dust for one and water for another...

[astrocat]

Vortexes in space is a valid concept and congruent with GR, to the extent that matter warps spacetime. However, as you started a topic in the ATM section, it suggests that you are alluding to the whole of space existing as some type of rotating Godel model.

Godel, like me, was a friend of Einstein. I have read some of his work but it escapes me - 'the whole of Space... Godel Model'. This I could not find at all. I said I would get back to you on this.

No, Jamini, I have never heard anybody else say Vortices lead to Clumping Up. I actually believe I am the first to notice this phenomenon. I think this is already, an important contribution to Science.

[tusenfem]

astrocat
Why don't you just present your model, instead of keeping us in the dark and throwing out our ideas about what you want to know. I can see a vortex in my bathtub when I empty it, I can imagine a vortex near a magnetized accreting object etc. etc.

A passive vortex is one you create thru' stirring. It goes for a while, and then peters out.

An Active vortex is one with a 'motor', like the one created by a Vacuum Cleaner (electric motor) or a sinkful of water when you pull the plug (Gravity operated). This type requires no human input.

This is not really two different kinds of vortices. If you keep on stirring the vortex will remain in your coffee mug.
If you turn off the motor of your vacuum cleaner, the vortex will "peter out".
So there is no real difference, it just depends on the driver and it has nothing to do with gas and water. If the driver is turned off the vortex will dissipate, if the driver is kept turned on the vortex will remain.