Please tell me people aren't this ignorant

[astromark]

Andy Williams might be able to help you with this... or was it Tony Bennett, and they are Americans...
Yes you are correct Neil Armstrong sang 'Fly me to the moon.' ( In his shower ). and so they did.

I still think you might be being a little hard on all those 'ignorant' folk. Our society has changed. No longer do we need to know whom we pay our taxes to and for.
Charles Darwin would not be to pleased with this but, the fittest and most intelligent of our species are not in charge norr are they breeding faster than the ignorant hords... We are dumbing ourselves down... You can not point or blame any part of society for what comes naturally.

[fifelad55]

Go into any bar where I stay (estimates of the number vary from 1,000 + to almost 3,000 or maybe more and ask any of the (predominantly) female staff a simple astronomical question and I can guarantee that at least 95% of them won't have a clue. It's not that they are stupid - far from it and if you believe they are, you do so at your peril - it's just that they are uneducated, very few of them having received more than the most basic of Primary School education.

Many of them are fluent in two languages (Thai and Laos). Quite a few will also speak Khmer (Cambodian). In addition, they can also speak English to a varying degree. I did find one girl in her 20's who couldn't read or write. I can read the Thai script albeit at a painfuly slow pace.

Alan

[01101001]

I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? [...] It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.

BA Blog: 47% of Americans need to be launched into a heliocentric orbit

Only 53% of adult Americans know it takes the Earth a year to go around the Sun.

[hhEb09'1]

BA Blog: 47% of Americans need to be launched into a heliocentric orbit

From the Science Daily webpage:

Only 47% of adults can roughly approximate the percent of the Earth's surface that is covered with water.*

* The approximately correct answer range for this question was defined as anything between 65% and 75%. Only 15% of respondents answered this question with the exactly correct answer of 70%.

When you take the quiz on the front page of California Academy of Sciences' website, it says 71%.

[Jeff Root]

Nitrogen and water are both 70%.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[SpaceCowboy]

A lot of people are just plain stupid these days. haha

[danscope]

There's a difference. When someone is ignorant, they haven't been exposed to the pertinent knowledge.
When someone is stupid, they HAVE been exposed to the pertinent knowledge, but have "Chosen" to not heed, or refused to understand, or could care less about the facts in question, so as to have
"stooped" below their educational station. Someone who knows the frying pan is hot and picks it up without a pot holder is doing a stupid thing.
I think there is a lesson in this for all of us. Speeding in the snow and ice is a stupid thing to do. We "KNOW" it is wrong and that it could mean our life.
Drinking untill we pass out and driving home is stupid.
May you each have a happy St Patrick's day...safely at home.
See you soon, my friends.
Best regards,
Dan

[forrest noble]

uniqueuponhim,

Statistics can be deceiving. 58% could be 29 of 50 people in an impoverished part of town. Also the way that the question was phrased, written, or how the survey was conducted, could have been ambiguous or biased in some way. Maybe a Jay Leno type survey of the dumbest looking people in town?

Like you, I would seriously doubt that the adult population in France as a whole could be this ill informed. Like you said, it would probably be like seeing the same stats from a survey here in the U.S.

[JonClarke]

There's a difference. When someone is ignorant, they haven't been exposed to the pertinent knowledge.
When someone is stupid, they HAVE been exposed to the pertinent knowledge, but have "Chosen" to not heed, or refused to understand, or could care less about the facts in question, so as to have "stooped" below their educational station. Someone who knows the frying pan is hot and picks it up without a pot holder is doing a stupid thing.

There is a third category too. People who are exposed to a particular concept in education but don't retain it because they find it neither useful or interesting. I know people with PhD's in science who couldn't tell you the order of planets, because they are not interested and it is is not relevant to what they do. On the other hand I know manual labours who could because they are interested. I am not exempt. I was taught to do quadratic equations but I could not solve one to save my life, and have not been able to since I left school. And I don't care, either.

[danscope]

Hi Jon, You make an excellent point. Some knowledge comes under the heading of " Although I don't use it, I at least know where to find it".
Rather than beeing stupid, it is a defense mechanism to relieve subconcious stress concerning our ability to remember everything. Like you said; you studied quadratic equations so many years ago it isn't funny and although you haven't ever used them, it gives you the confidence to tackle any mathematical problem you encounter, so it's not a wasted effort.
But I can understand a youngster in college thinking..."Why study 'stupid'
quadratic equations; I'm never going to use them!". I think quite often we are simply 'weary' of putting so much time and effort into 'requirements for college credit ' , seeing no redeemable value in that pursuit.
It tests our blind faith in directed education. Supposedly, it builds character.
By now, we must be giants!
Best regards,Sir.
Dan

[blueberrydesk]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidiy?



I don't know and I don't care.

[NickW]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidiy?



I don't know and I don't care.

Very funny!
Sounds about right to me.

BTW, welcome to BAUT.

[HenrikOlsen]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidity?

My, not so funny, answer tends to be: Ignorance is curable.

[Tucson_Tim]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidiy?



I don't know and I don't care.

Good one!

Frank Zappa: “Stupidity has a certain charm -- ignorance does not”

[malaidas]

The more logical and convencing we become, the more people will understand about astronomy and cosmos.

Sorry it seems to be the other way round at the moment in some places across the globe.

The more evidence and logical theories we have, the more we are lying, distorting the truth, involved in a government conspiricy to hide the presence of UFO, working for statan.... take your pick.

[MythozDog]

This guy by the name of Philadelphian posed an interesting point about the ScienceDaily article below. Was wondering how Phil would address his point?

ScienceDaily (Apr. 28, 2009) NASA's Swift satellite and an international team of astronomers have found a gamma-ray burst from a star that died when the universe was only 630 million years old, or less than five percent of its present age. The event, dubbed GRB 090423, is the most distant cosmic explosion ever seen


Philadelphian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something is wrong with the story. Someone is not thinking clearly.
If the star blew up when the universe was 630 million years old, the source of the blast could have only been 1260 million years from our stars original materials location at the time.
1260 million is 1 billion 260 million. If the universe is 15 billion years old, the gamma rays would have passed us and vanished 13 billion 110million years ago.
What kind of crap are the governments mouthpieces handing out? Do they realize 99.9 human beings are sheeple without cognitive ability?

[slang]

Cute. Perhaps someone should introduce mr. Philadelphian to the concept of expansion. He's only several decades behind on the facts, but that's ok. Some do worse.

[MythozDog]

Cute. Perhaps someone should introduce mr. Philadelphian to the concept of expansion. He's only several decades behind on the facts, but that's ok. Some do worse.

A little more specific Slang if you don't mind? : ) Are you saying that the universe was expanding at the speed of light before the gamma ray burst initially but has since slowed where as the gamma ray continues unabated and has finally caught up?

[slang]

A little more specific Slang if you don't mind? : ) Are you saying that the universe was expanding at the speed of light before the gamma ray burst initially but has since slowed where as the gamma ray continues unabated and has finally caught up?

I'm pretty tired right now, and don't feel up to writing a full explanation. But I can link you to Ned Wright's Frequently Asked Questions page. He's a very respected source, and if your answer isn't in this page, it probably is in one of the linked pages. If that doesn't help you, try searching the questions and answers forum here for the word 'expansion'.

[Jeff Root]

As slang indicates, the question of how far light travels to reach us
from cosmologically-distant sources has been addressed here many times.
Essentially, the light acts like an ant walking at constant speed on a rope
that is stretching. The rope can either be stretching at a constant rate
or the rate of stretching can be changing. Either way, even though the
ant at first is getting farther and farther away from its goal, eventually it
starts to get closer, and finally gets to the far end of the rope.

Try a search on the word 'rope' plus either 'expansion' or 'expand'.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[AndrewJ]

Essentially, the light acts like an ant walking at constant speed on a rope that is stretching.

I was surprised when I first heard of this phenomenon and initially erroneously mixed the analogy with Xeno's paradox.

I have read the threads on the ant-rubber-rope analogy and thought about it in the bath for some nights. This is how I visualize it:

A rubber rope is staked to the ground and stretched at the other end: the further from the stake the more the rubber stretches (the expansion of space increases with distance). A little ant (photon) near the stretched end of the rope walks at a set speed (speed of light) toward the stake (your retina). The stretching is initially faster than the ant's progress (space is expanding faster than c) so the ant initially moves backward relative to the stake (us). However, the ant is moving along the rope (through space) so although retreating from us will proceeed to a point where his rate of acceleration from the stake decreases. Although for the time being he moves backward relative to the stake his progress means his acceleration away from us is ever decreasing. Eventually, he will reach a point whereafter his progress toward the stake will exceed his being stretched away from the stake (expansion of space < c) and he will be able to make ground on the stake (us).

Therefore, the ant will conquer the stretched rope and EM radiation can get to us across superluminally expanding space.

If this is wrong please, please let me know and I can go back to the drawing board.

[nokton]

I have a hard time believing this is real. I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? Can anyone confirm whether or not this is real, or if it was staged? It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yJl...elated&search=

Hi there, what people believe is what they want to, you cannot change it. Disagree with
you can, but learn this, a man convinced against his will, is a man of the same opinion still
Nokton

[01101001]

Hi there, what people believe is what they want to, you cannot change it.

They cannot be persuaded to believe otherwise by good data and sound logic?

We might as well shut BAUT Forum down.

And close the schools, burn the libraries, and disconnect the Internet.

[Gillianren]

You know, people have their beliefs, much less their knowledge of things, change all the time. Many of them are either too religious or too political for this board--but that's rather the point, isn't it? Those are things we hold dear to us, things we consider an important part of who we are, but people do change them.

As for education, well, of course it can change what people think!

[HenrikOlsen]

Therefore, the ant will conquer the stretched rope and EM radiation can get to us across superluminally expanding space.

If this is wrong please, please let me know and I can go back to the drawing board.

It is a bit like one of Xeno's paradoxes(he made four), but turned around.

Think of it this way: if the distance left to travel keeps growing faster than the ant travels, it will never get there.
If the expansion stops, then eventually it will get there.

BTW, the ant analogy has one little twist in that, as the rubber band stretches, the little bit between the ant's legs stretches as well tiring the ant so it has less energy. As it's moving at constant speed this lowered energy has to be expressed as lower frequency, thus red-shifted.

[AndrewJ]

Thanks for the feedback, Henrik.

the ant analogy has one little twist in that, as the rubber band stretches, the little bit between the ant's legs stretches as well tiring the ant so it has less energy. As it's moving at constant speed this lowered energy has to be expressed as lower frequency, thus red-shifted.

I like that, great analogy of EM red-shift!

if the distance left to travel keeps growing faster than the ant travels, it will never get there.
If the expansion stops, then eventually it will get there. (bold by AndrewJ)

So really the ant-rope analogy applies to photons emitted whilst the expansion of space was decelerating from its initial superluminal expansion and before the MES accelarated again due to dark energy (maybe 5 billion years ago)?

[TJMac]

I have a hard time believing this is real.

part removed, adhoms are against the rules of BAUT.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yJl...elated&search=

I am reminded of the fictional Forrest Gump, who was told by his mother, also fictional, "Stupid is as Stupid Does." I doubt anyone has a monopoly on it, regardless of their locale.

TJ

[MattTheTubaGuy]

Didn't Einstein say
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”

I really can't believe some of the things some people believe, although I have to admit I am a bit gullible myself.
I used to believe the 'young earth' theory, and that mac book wheel, at least until I got pointed out the onion!
Interesting the ant on an elastic string analogy.

[tdvance]

I like that video--"everything is just a few hundred clicks away" the man says!

[billy2]

I was surprised when I first heard of this phenomenon and initially erroneously mixed the analogy with Xeno's paradox.

I have read the threads on the ant-rubber-rope analogy and thought about it in the bath for some nights. This is how I visualize it:

A rubber rope is staked to the ground and stretched at the other end: the further from the stake the more the rubber stretches (the expansion of space increases with distance). A little ant (photon) near the stretched end of the rope walks at a set speed (speed of light) toward the stake (your retina).

I never understood this. What about the Ant walking away from your Retina on the same rubber rope towards another persons distant Retina.