Established Member
No worries. FYI, I wasn't trying to make any political point but simply commenting that, from the standpoint of a foreigner who sees horrific events like this one take place with alarming regularity, it's hard to understand the aversion to gun control.
No more comments from me on this subject
Order of Kilopi
If you're interested, you can check around the web and you can see the various arguments based on different positions. They're all over the map.
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Established Member
I have heard a ton of arguments today.
I just want to say this to people that want to blame Campus security for something like this.
There is nothing you can do.
Limiting weapons won't help, strengthing security won't help, and god forbid it does... the "Minority Report" tactic won't ever work.
1. Laws and regulations only apply to lawful and abiding citizens. People that don't obey the law always find a way.
2. Maximizing security won't work.
a) It is not feasible, monetarily, or practically. 900 students coming and going 24/7 into and out of a building with several entrances cannot be checked individually without creating a roadblock of epic proportions.
b) Who are going pay the extra security/police officers in the hundreds of buildings on any campus?
Imagine that you were in a 1200 student class. You would have to set aside an entired day to attnd a 90 minute session if every one of your classmates had to be sufficiently checked.
Also... with that number of students in one class (or building) it is too easy to "blend" in amongst the sea of faces.
3. Trying to blame someone for "not seeing it" before it happens leads us in a dangerous direction. That is why I mentioned Minority Report.
Simply being very angry for a long time is not a good enough reason to stop someone. You are allowed to have thoughts and even say most things. That is the way this country works. You can suspect someone might do something, but until they do it, you have no legal power unless they provide evidence that they are going to do it.
This hits hard on many fronts.
I went to pick up my son from school just last week, and the security on the surface looked GREAT.
I drove into the parking lot, and walked into the office where I was asked, "May I help you?"
I said "I'm here for my son Brandon (last name withheld)".
They called down the hall, and then after a reply, I was told to go down there to the Principal's office.
In the Principal's office I signed him out on a sheet by the door. (I could have written any 2 names on it... no one even looked at it at this time.)
Since the principal was expecting me (who am I to him?) because they called him... he trusted me, and called for my son.
Then he told me to return to the main office and wait for my son.
Now that I had been with the principal, the office workers felt comfortable, and let me take this 13 year old boy with me, no questions asked.
The only thing that could have ever proven who or what I was was when my son came through the front door (I could have waited outside for him) and said "Hi Dad".
My point is that everyone there assumed that someone ELSE had done their job, and just let a kid go with someone they had no real idea who it was except that I told them I was someone, and they were expecting someone.
But as unsafe as that story seems... it could have been like Fort Knox, and it can still be broken into. There is no such thing as SAFE. There is only safER.
Established Member
I wasn't commenting on today's shooting, just the link that Tog posted.Originally Posted by cbacba
Established Member
The policemen were also afraid of being sued, with all the protection laws that exist now. In a way, I can't really blame them for not wanting to act quicker if all they want to do is get through the day without being mortally injured.
Established Member
Ya, but it doesn't mention whether or not there's been an increase or decrease overall, or especially of this kind of large-scale events. (And I was also thinking outside the school with my comment.)
Order of Kilopi
I don't really want to respond very forcefully, because I think the quote above sort of fits into the political side that we're trying to avoid. But I just wanted to say that I don't know if that is really true. I'll admit, there are differences in the situation, but I've been living in Japan for more than 15 years, and the only place I've ever seen guns is in police officers' holsters. I've never seen one drawn, and certainly not used. People just don't have them. The yakuza do, yes, but they keep them under tight control themselves, and only use them in inter-gang warfare. When people rob a store (even crazy ones), they just don't use guns (they use knives, which are not nice either, of course!). But crazy people in Japan don't have guns. They're just too difficult to get. Even police offices have to leave their weapons in the police station when off duty.
This doesn't really apply very easily to the US, however, because people can travel freel from one place to another. In Japan, people have to enter the country through airports or ports, so it's fairly easy to control the entry of firearms to some extent.
As above, so below
Established Member
Don't feel bad.
My statement only applies in the U.S. for the purposes of what I am talking about. (maybe other places, but I am not from anywhere but here. - United States)
If it had always been against the law to own a firearm, then it would have been more difficult for this to happen. But even then, not really.
Just because the guy used guns to do his deed doesn't mean the lack of one would have stopped him. He could have bombed the hall just as easily... probably more easily. You can make bombs out of so many things that can be bought anywhere, and in their situation, there wouldn't have been any suspicion. You bring in one innocuous ingredient a day, and over time, you have the ingredients inside, and then you assemble them and BOOM!!!!
Like I said... if a person wants to do it.. they will. There is no safety. Just being safer.
We never ask the questions before the fact... only after.
I'm just glad that things like this only happen every few decades, and not every day.
I don't believe that firearms are the problem. I believe that being too comfortable with our "Americanism" is.
Oh... and our most violent video games come from where?
Established Member
Japan
Order of Kilopi
Very true. But don't blame me. I just live here.
What you say about the explosions is also true. Even in Japan, which is supposed to be very safe, a group of crazies made nerve gas and managed to kill 11 people on subway cars. So there is no "magic bullet" (not meant intentionally as a pun...) And actually, there was an incident about five years ago where a crazy guy went into a classroom with a knife and stabbed 10 children to death, but these were 6-year-olds, so it was somewhat easier than with a room of college kids who would likely pick up chairs.
The only thing is, many people going on a rampage of some sort will use what's easily available. And if a kitchen knife is around, that's good enough, but there are limits to what you can do. Nerve gas is powerful, but it's not something that's easy to make. But in general, we don't have lots of classroom shootings probably because there is no easy access to firearms.
But of course, you're right that there is only "safer", never "safe".
As above, so below
Order of Kilopi
And maybe more young classroom stabbings because there is no easy access to firearms? I dunno
Honored Member
This is so sad.
All those lives and their potential are now gone.
I was at Columbia back in 1968 when the mobs on both sides started pushing each other. Eventually it took a handkerchief over one's mouth and nose to get to math class in Dodge Hall through all the tear gas.
But no one was killed. It wasn't until two years later that the inevitable took place at Kent State.
This brings back many shudders of memory. I hope it's an isolated incident.
My thoughts and feelings go out to the families of those who lost their youthful lives for no good reason.
OK, that's enough.
Established Member
Jens, I wasn't blaming you. It was meant more of an ironic joke.
I am so very saddened by what has happened, that I am actually fuming mad at those who try to analyze it after the fact.
It happened. It will happen again. It sucks. It's awful.
But in this world, whether you are free or not, no matter how strict the regulations, this can and will happen from time to time.
Look at how careful they are with the Space Shuttle.
There've been only a relatively few launches since 1981, yet 2 of them have had tragedies. They were simple mistakes that could have been avoided, but they were not.
Why? Because you trust it when they go right too many times.
I was just speaking with my wife about when I was a security guard and I was hated by employees of a certain pharmaceutical company, because I made them show me their ID every time they came back in the building.
Their argument was always... "But I was just outside for a smoke! I've been here for 10 years!"
My response was always "I don't know what happened before you walked out the door." (meaning... they may have just been fired, and I don't know if they are trying to get back in to kill the boss)
You NEVER know what is happening.
You can only do what you can.
Bad Post-Doc
Try reading Killing Monsters, by Gerard Jones. He references quite a lot of studies that indicate, as I said earlier, that violence by young people is on the way down, and that the majority of violence against children is done by adults.
_____________________________________________
Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Order of Kilopi
Backing up a bit, because I sleep odd hours...
It is legal for a private citizen in the US to own a submachine gun. It's really hard to get the permits for it, but there are many in private hands. This was true even during the assault weapon ban.
As a kid, I knew many people who had them. I actually fired more fully automatic weapons before age 12 than I did in Army basic training; one in a competition at a range run by an ex police officer and attended by an active FBI field agent. If you hang around gun ranges enough you can meet people that have them. Maybe not in every state, but in many,
As for a reason to have them. No, there isn't one. Just like there is no reason to have one of every model year of Corvette, a working Spitfire, or a first edition Spiderman comic that you will never read. Some people collect things that interest them. Those with money can collect things that are outside the norm.
The assault weapons ban, was simply a law that mad it illegal to manufacture or import firearms and magazines that met certain criteria. In many cases, it was very difficult for the average person to tell the difference between one that was legal and one that was not. It was still legal to sell the pre-ban gun and accessories, so those that were in the market already were still available (at much higher prices).
Some places made magazines for certain common types of pistol that had as many as 50 rounds. One such magazine was made for the .45 auto. It was a drum that stuck out quite a ways under the grip. From what I've heard, they didn't work all that well, but they still exist.
There is a standard event in combat pistol shooting call "El Presidente". It involves 3 targets at ranges of 3, 5, and 7 yards. The shooter draws and fired 2 rounds at each target, reloads and repeats. A good time is between 6 and 8 seconds for shooter familiar with the guns they use. I know that my draw time is about 1.5 seconds, so that leaves me 5.5 to get off 12 rounds and a reload. A skilled shooter can reload in the time it takes to fire one round at a faster pace than that. I watched a competition shooter one time fire 12 rounds and from the pacing of the shots, there was no way to tell when the reload happened.
This guy may have been a nut, but there is no reason to think it was the first time he'd ever fired a gun. Not with what we know so far, at any rate.
I'm Not Evil.
An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.
Order of Kilopi
I also thought about this on the drive in to work tonight. We all realy want reasons when something like this happens. It's not new. Maybe it's time to look back at "Running Amok".
I'm Not Evil.
An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.
Order of Kilopi
Tog, I was raised on a different spin on the "amok" than what the wiki article states. That after a bit folks began to realize that most of the victims of the rampages where ethnic chinese. And that it decreased when the policy of impaling those who ran amok in the town square of their own home village was implemented. Takes the machismo completely out of it when you have to die wailing on a stick in front of your friends and family.
Order of Kilopi
The local radio show had a student on this morning that provided a very candid and calm summation of what happened in her classroom. Don't know how widespread that type of interview is yet, so here is what she said.
She was in her classroom when they heard shots. She and the teacher walked out into the hall and came face to face with the gunman as he had just left the room next to them. He fired at them and missed. They ducked back in the room, and a couple guys quickly threw a large table in front of the door and laid on the floor holding it's legs. The gunman fired 2 shots thru the door, then tried the handle, getting the door open an inch or two. The guys (I think she said big guys) bracing the table slammed it back shut and the gunman gave up and went to the other rooms. They could hear him going rooom to room and shooting.
She was amazingly calm.
Order of Kilopi
At least, those of your friends and family that are left ...
Established Member
A very sad day for the families and friends affected by this terrible tragedy. I find some of the speculation in this thread about what may have happened quite tasteless. Wouldn't it be more humane to suggest that until we know the facts that it'd be far more respectful to just send messages of condolence?
Order of Kilopi
Respectful? Maybe. Likely? Not.
Established Member
My heart goes out to the surviviours and the families of these victims, every time I hear about something like this it always makes me think of the Port Arthur massacre
Moderator
The VT campus paper, Collegiate Times, started covering the story online just before 10am local time. As the events unfolded and more people sought news, their server was overwhelmed with traffic. They are now on their parent company's server at http://collegemedia.com/.
This is not how college journalism students are supposed to gain experience. They should be reporting on grade escalation and frat parties and the black market in essays, not how their classmates were murdered.
College is supposed to be about the joy of learning, and running around with friends, and hoping the folks don't find out what you're up to; reality shouldn't come along until after graduation, and never like this.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov
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Established Member
I hold out hope. After all, the authorities job is to ascertain what happened. It isn't the job of the Bautforum.
Order of Kilopi
A little reality every now and again makes for nice practical experience. The smarter ones see the nitty gritty when they do internships, now they get it up close and personal. How to approach emotionally traumatic events with the necessary objectivity to be effective gatherers and transmitters of information on current events. With luck, this might make for at least one graduating class of journalists with enough perspective not to sensationalize incidents like this.
A necessary, if tragic, evil in my opinion.
Oh please, kids are sheltered enough in their teens. By the time they're in their 20's, they should be emotionally developed enough to cope with tragedy. Attitudes like that I believe are responsible for some of the more spineless, wimpering mushballs that make it into the real world and think it should be a place where everyone frollicks in the frelling wildflowers together...College is supposed to be about the joy of learning, and running around with friends, and hoping the folks don't find out what you're up to; reality shouldn't come along until after graduation, and never like this.
People hate, people kill, get used to it. The hardest and most necessary lesson in life.
Order of Kilopi
Granted, but you're talking about a group of people who's interests in life tend towards the "indentify it, analyze it, discuss it, understand it" variety.
Sitting idly by waiting for the world to tell us what we want to know goes against the grain of your average BAUTer...
Established Member
I agree, though in certain cases, there are reasons for us Bautforum types to hold back for a while, at least until the dust has settled. Out of respect for the deceased if nothing else.
Order of Kilopi
In 32 out of 33 cases, I'll agree. In one particular instance, dignity, respect, and privacy are waived, and in his case, I'll speculate until they stick him in a hole, then I'll use it as a latrine.
Established Member
Well, we agree to disagree then. I'll leave you to it.
Established Member
As has already been mentioned, this is not the time or place for political discussions over gun control policy. Please use this thread to express your condolences, and use other mediums to voice your opinions about politics.
Like all of you, I am still in shock about this terrible news. There was a similar event at my university (thankfully before I attended). 2 or 3 people were killed and the entire university went into lock down within minutes. A former lecturer of mine was the one who managed to overpower the gunman and retrieve the weapon. He was shot in the process and later received a bravery medal. It will be a long time before the Virginia Tech campus returns to normal. I express my sincere condolences to all of the families and friends of the victims.
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