Very Sad News - More Gun Violence

[Dave Mitsky]

One of the largest mass murders in years took place today at Virginia Tech.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vte...ing/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/

Dave MItsky

[Fazor]

Yeah, I just got back from class and saw the article on MSN. I'm honestly not a very emotional guy but things like this get to me. To say it's sad is an understatment. My heart goes out to the families of the dead and the wounded.

[Doodler]

Body count at 31 now... What the heck was he using? The story puts the total he shot somewhere in the low 40s, which is at least three reloads of your average pistol, even more for a typical rifle...

[Ilya]

According to MSNBC, a 9 mm pistol and a .22 (!) rifle: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

To get this kind of body count with these weapons takes someone very serious and very well trained. This is not a "random nutcase".

[EvilEye]

It's not gun violence. It's people violence.

Largest massacre in U.S. history now.

The worst part is, the gunman is dead too, so no one will ever get closure.

All this will do is bring up thousands of questions with no real answers.

[Frantic Freddie]

Law enforcement officials said the gunman carried two weapons, a 9-mm handgun and a 22-caliber gun, Williams reported.

Nothing about a rifle.

To get this kind of body count with these weapons takes someone very serious and very well trained. This is not a "random nutcase".

No,it'd doesn't take a lot of training,just some familiarity with the weapon & a willingness to use it.

[Doodler]

I wonder if they'll ban the tag "Lone Gunman" at VT because it might hurt someone's feelings and bring back bad memories.

[pizzaguy]

To get this kind of body count with these weapons takes someone very serious and very well trained. This is not a "random nutcase".

Well, not to be offensive, but you are wrong. First, he had two guns and multiple magazines for each. Second, his victims were all unarmed. Third, it is being reported that he chained the doors closed to the building so that escape was impossible. Forth, he is said to have lined up a whole classroom as "hostages", then sprayed them with gunfire.

Now, YOU are in such a situation - what are you gonna do, other than die?

[One Skunk Todd]

I have seen early news reports in other cases like this where a .223 rifle was mistakenly reported as .22.

[Doodler]

Well, not to be offensive, but you are wrong. First, he had two guns and multiple magazines for each. Second, his victims were all unarmed. Third, it is being reported that he chained the doors closed to the building so that escape was impossible. Forth, he is said to have lined up a whole classroom as "hostages", then sprayed them with gunfire.

Now, YOU are in such a situation - what are you gonna do, other than die?

Charge. Might get me, might not, better dead fighting, though.

[Captain Kidd]

Wikipedia is a good gathering point for information, although nothing on the guns used right now, I had heard earlier that it was two 9mm, nothing about any other calibres.

Currently it looks like the death toll is:
Fatalities:
32 reported by Fox and Collegiate Times
31 reported by AP, MSNBC, CNN, CBS and BBC
29 reported by ABC
22 reported by Reuters and Virginia Tech
Injuries:
29 reported by CNN
21 reported by FOX
10 reported by BBC

As for mass murder, looks like the Bath School Disaster holds that unfortunate title.

[Frantic Freddie]

Something doesn't add up,the 1st shootings were at 7:15 am,then the attacks started 2 hours later

Why wasn't the campus shut down & students warned?

[Larry Jacks]

Now, YOU are in such a situation - what are you gonna do, other than die?

Charge. Might get me, might not, better dead fighting, though.

My thoughts exactly.

According to what I've read, Virginia Tech was a declared "gun free zone." Too bad that only applies to people who obey the law.

[pizzaguy]

Charge. Might get me, might not, better dead fighting, though.

Right-o! What do you have to loose? (I guess I'd have to be there to know all the particulars - but then, I'd be armed! I carry on campus, even tho guns are banned at my school. I think the risk is worth it, for a first offense, they'd just take my CCW permit, which still means I can carry in my car and home.)

[cbacba]

It's not gun violence. It's people violence.

Largest massacre in U.S. history now.

The worst part is, the gunman is dead too, so no one will ever get closure.

All this will do is bring up thousands of questions with no real answers.

NOt quite.

THe largest is a nightclub arson quite a few years ago now. Death toll was in the vacinity of or over 50 people. Some sort of bar argument and I guess the guy couldn't find a pistol, so he opted for a gas can and a match.

Short distances and unarmed victims incapable of defending themselves make up for any apparent lack of expertise on the part of the murderer. It'll be interesting to note if it comes out that the culprit was on ritilin and the like. It'll also undoubtedly get reported as some nutjob upset over a domestic dispute (or girlfriend rejection), probably even if the guy's name was mohamed and he just came to the school from the nearest mosque. The fact that it occurred in two radically different locations (across the campus) makes one wonder if there wasn't more than one involved. Clearly, there was some sort of specificity, otherwise there would only be one crime scene, perhaps a long one.

Also the latest is 32 dead and that the gunman had 2x 9mm pistols - but the one thing we do know is the media reports that which they do not know in situations like this so it could have easily been 2x 9 year olds with shotguns.

[pizzaguy]

Something doesn't add up,the 1st shootings were at 7:15 am,then the attacks started 2 hours later

Why wasn't the campus shut down & students warned?

Look up incompetence in the dictionary. You may be able to develop a theory ...

[Doodler]

Look up incompetence in the dictionary. You may be able to develop a theory ...

Unless the initial analysis was that the dorm attacks were an isolated incident unlikely to be immediately repeated.

99% of the time, you get a shooter like that who hits, then runs like hell.

A rampage like this is something pretty extraordinary, despite the media's ad nauseum coverage of them.

[Demigrog]

I don't even know where to begin describing how I feel right now; I'm a VT alumni and still have many family and friends there. This reminds me so much of 9/11, worse even because it is so much closer to home. It was eerily similar, actually; everyone in the office starts getting rumors and a few cell phone calls here and there, totally underestimating the scope of the tragedy. Then, watching my co-workers with kids down there go from minor concern to total panic when the press conference announced a "ball park" 20 dead, I don't think I'll feel ok for a long time. Everyone thought it was a simple homicide up until then.

Fortunately I've gotten hold of all my own family, but I’m dreading the next few days because with so many dead, in an engineering building no less, there is just bound to be somebody I know.

This is going to change Tech for a long time. I cannot imagine having classis in Norris or living in AJ after this.

[mugaliens]

This is absolutely horrific. This is my alma mater.

I visited Virginia Tech in May of last year with a friend who'd gone to a nearby school.

It was always such a sleepy little town back in the 1980s, so much so that many people would never lock their doors.

My heart goes out to the people, their friends, and the family of those who've suffered at the hands of the madman who did this.

The only consolation is that we won't have to endure a lengthy trial, as the madman apparently shot himself.

As for addressing the other comments, I'll wait a few days for the dust to settle, out of respect for those who're suffering.

[tofu]

Class buildings are pretty bad places in terms of vulnerability to this kind of attack. You have to go into the hall (where the gunman is) to exit normally, and the windows are often too small to get through.

That probably has something to do with the high number of victims.

[korjik]

Well, not to be offensive, but you are wrong. First, he had two guns and multiple magazines for each. Second, his victims were all unarmed. Third, it is being reported that he chained the doors closed to the building so that escape was impossible. Forth, he is said to have lined up a whole classroom as "hostages", then sprayed them with gunfire.

Now, YOU are in such a situation - what are you gonna do, other than die?

I agree with Doodler. Even if I die I know that the dozen or so he puts into me wont be going into someone else. If he dosent stop me, my 280lbs will put a bit of a crimp in his plans.

[Doodler]

I agree with Doodler. Even if I die I know that the dozen or so he puts into me wont be going into someone else. If he dosent stop me, my 280lbs will put a bit of a crimp in his plans.

275 here. Hard to miss, plenty of momentum.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/

MSNBC gets the gold star for #10.

[Delvo]

I'm used to people saying violence in general, or school violence in particular, has gotten worse than "when we were kids", when it "never happened at all". And I'm used to responding that the stats show it's really no different and we just hear about it more now because stories that would have been local before are national now.

But now it seems that I've heard of things like this happening more in the last few years than when even I was a kid, and news reporting hasn't changed that much that quickly. So now I'm starting to wonder if there's a real statistical phenomenon, an actual growing trend, here.

[jamini]

Yet another of constant reminders that the evolutionary process is painfully slow.

My deepest regrets to the victims and their families; at least the monster responsible is dead.

[Doodler]

I'm used to people saying violence in general, or school violence in particular, has gotten worse than "when we were kids", when it "never happened at all". And I'm used to responding that the stats show it's really no different and we just hear about it more now because stories that would have been local before are national now.

But now it seems that I've heard of things like this happening more in the last few years than when even I was a kid, and news reporting hasn't changed that much that quickly. So now I'm starting to wonder if there's a real statistical phenomenon, an actual growing trend, here.

The link I posted in the spot before your post here, #10 spelled out exactly how rare school violence is at the fatal level.

[Melusine]

This is absolutely horrific. This is my alma mater.

...

My heart goes out to the people, their friends, and the family of those who've suffered at the hands of the madman who did this.

The only consolation is that we won't have to endure a lengthy trial, as the madman apparently shot himself.

As for addressing the other comments, I'll wait a few days for the dust to settle, out of respect for those who're suffering.

I just found out about this - how utterly awful and scary. I second your above comments, Mugaliens, and it's rather useless to go on about related matters - this stuff is not new. Remember the UT sniper back in the early '70s? It's just someone who went nuts and has now made other people's lives miserable. A very, very sad day.

[Tog]

As one of the mill;ions of gun owners who have never even thought about going on a rampage, I'd like to say this sucks and my thoughts go out to all those affected. Hopefully they will be able to peice together some sort of reason for it.

To address a point above, here is a 9mm pistol with a 50 round magazine. They also make a .22 with a 100 round capacity. I'm not saying this is what was used. I have no idea. I'm just putting this out as an example of how a person could carry that many rounds and get that many shots off.

Also, count me in the crowd that would be charging the guy, probably throwing stuff as well. I'm not as fit as I used to be, but I think I've gotten a bit meaner to compensate for it.

[Fazor]

I don't even know where to begin describing how I feel right now; I'm a VT alumni and still have many family and friends there. This reminds me so much of 9/11, worse even because it is so much closer to home. It was eerily similar, actually; everyone in the office starts getting rumors and a few cell phone calls here and there, totally underestimating the scope of the tragedy. Then, watching my co-workers with kids down there go from minor concern to total panic when the press conference announced a "ball park" 20 dead, I don't think I'll feel ok for a long time. Everyone thought it was a simple homicide up until then.

I hope all your friends co-worker's families are safe. Like I said in my initial post, I'm generally a very un-emotional person. But similarly, reading this story gave me the feeling of 9-11 all over again. Okay so there's a huge difference between that and this. But still. ~30 deaths? (assuming the wounded all live). Ugh. It's just incomprehensable. And the coward didnt even have the guts to stick around and take responsability for his actions. Makes me sick. If you're going to kill yourself, well then do it. Don't take 30 innocent people with you.

[HenrikOlsen]

Now, YOU are in such a situation - what are you gonna do, other than die?

Short distance, handgun?
Immediately start throwing everything you can grab at his head, especially liquids or hard edgy objects. Every time he has to blink or move his head is another second of two that you'll live, if it inspires a few others to do so as well a rush has a reasonable chance at taking him down or you'll ave time to aim at the gun hand with a chair.

Would probably still die, but the others have a better chance.

[Fazor]

Well it's stupid to discuss what you would do in that situation, because in less you've been in it you don't honestly know what you would do.

But those are all good suggestions of what you SHOULD do. Problem is, in the beginning you don't know what the gunman/men intend to do. Most often if they take hostages, they're not going to actually kill you. But personally, I feel it's better to treat every one like that's what they're going to do. Once that have you lined up or worse, bound and subdued, you can't act if you suddenly find out they are going to kill you.

I always tell my g/f that if someone tries to hold her at gunpoint, do NOT do what they ask you to do. Run. Scream. Fight. But don't obey. Even in the much more common situation [of a single abduction/robbery], once they have you bound they'll probably put you through hell before they finally kill you. Don't let them. If you're going to die anyway, die fighting.

Besides, unless you're a skilled, trained shooter, a moving target at anything over 10-15 feet isn't as easy to hit with a handgun as you'd think. And the further you get the harder it is to hit you.