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Thread: Time to promote corporal punishment to sergeant?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodler View Post
    Which is pretty much what employers will do throughout most of their lives, better to train them to cope with it young.
    That's a pretty bleak viewpoint, Doodler.

    I've yet to encounter an employer who tried to physically abuse me. Physical domination is now the moral domain of the parent... and the criminal.

    Obedience is something of a requirement, though.
    Really? I've legally consented to follow my boss's instructions. I've not consented to follow orders. Ultimately, though, I have the ability to disobey utterly: by resigning rather than follow an illegal or immoral instruction. His ability to coerce me is limited to laying me off.

    He doesn't require my obedience (which he wouldn't get.) Just access to my skill set, my time, and my cooperation towards the goals he's defined.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Oh, I strongly disagree with this one. Teachers are not second parents. That's not their job; that's not what they're paid for. Not least because you should have instilled proper values in your kid before they're old enough to go to school--and if you haven't by high school, it's probably too late for the teacher to do it.
    I have no problem if you strongly disagree on what I posted.
    I believe that the Teachers are the 2nd Parents of our kids. Why ? From the moment we bring our kids as early as 3-4 yo to Daycares and Pre-schools, the teachers are the one who continue to be with them, guide, teach them of the things that we can't teach while we are out working. Including "Proper Values", thats why they teach the fundamentals of "Good Manners and Right Conduct" in schools. Parents have multiple roles in their kids as one of that is being their "Teacher" , that's where the "Teacher" in school does called a 2nd Parent , because he continues the role of the parents as a teacher while at school.
    Yes, parents should have be the "First" to instill proper values to their kids but the teacher are our "Partners" in teaching the kids the right way. Most of the day our kids are at school with their teachers and we only have them after working hours at night , and on weekends, where that's the time we have to spent with "Quality" as a Parent.
    I hope I have it clearly said in someway, because at this moment , I'm experiencing "scarcity" of english words in my brain.

    Blessedly few; don't get me wrong there. But to say that things don't happen unless they're provoked is a narrow-minded view of the situation and leads the way to all sorts of things I know you didn't mean. People don't provoke robberies, for example, or racist assaults. Violence and general, all-around bad behaviour is not always provoked by the person on whom it is turned.
    Well.. in my point of view. There are kids who are that naughty that does some bad things to the teacher and there are Teachers who are also naughty that does bad things to the students too.

    Why I said provoked , the Minds of the Teachers are "Different" from the Mind of the Student. It is a narrow- minded view in a way, IF You are the teenager. I remember on incident back in my freshman in college where we had a classmate who has a "Ridiculous and Odd" Surname. To us students, yes we make fun of him, and on OUR Level as freshman, he didn't took it seriously, BUT, when our teacher came into picture, when she started to ALSO Joke about our classmate surname, that's different. She is our "teacher" , who should be teaching us how to respect each others differences including having such "Names" , and that embarrassed our classmate. Everytime she came into our class and make the roll call , she jokes on him when she passes his name surname. Its a different feeling of embarassment compare to the pickingand joking of your fellow classmate. It didn't provoked our classmate to do Bad thing to our teacher then , but I'm sure IF our teacher continues to, she will likely provoke my classmate to do it. I hope you get what I wanted to point at.

    These are kids , they have different opinions, points of view, feelings towards life compare to Us adults. They are still in the stage where they are building their character and what the people does around him matters.

  3. #33
    Which is pretty much what employers will do throughout most of their lives, better to train them to cope with it young.

    The world kisses no one's booty, and really doesn't care if you respect it. Obedience is something of a requirement, though.
    That's right. And if a light beating doesn't work, you have to up the pain. This is very important. Do you think a young Richard Feynman or Lance Armstrong would have their spirit broken with just a spanking? It takes a lot of effort to break some kids. And unless people are willing to do what it takes to crush their spirits, more teachers are going to have their pants pulled down or walk through cellophane tape.

  4. #34
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    Are you all stepping back and reading what you are writing? I'm seeing disappointing replies from people who's input I normally respect. Crushing spirits? Any of you all raise any children? One person's crushing is another persons molding. Yeah, I've seen bad parenting. I've also seen bad carpentry. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with saws or nails. Spanking is a tool of parenting. Children want boundries. So they know what the rules are. It makes them more confident when they know they are where they are supposed to be.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Are you all stepping back and reading what you are writing? I'm seeing disappointing replies from people who's input I normally respect. Crushing spirits? Any of you all raise any children? One person's crushing is another persons molding. Yeah, I've seen bad parenting. I've also seen bad carpentry. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with saws or nails. Spanking is a tool of parenting. Children want boundries. So they know what the rules are. It makes them more confident when they know they are where they are supposed to be.
    There's a difference between wanting boundaries and wanting to be beaten, you know.

    Let me make my position official, here. A spanking here and there is one thing, though by the time the kid's old enough to reason, a spanking doesn't improve the kid's behaviour. Anything other than an open hand, however, is too much. I mean, ye Gods. BB guns? Who on Earth thinks that's responsible parenting? Especially if the reasoning is "so I won't have to get up"? I have seen parents who think they're being responsible who are being abusive. Very seldom have I seen a parent who thinks they're more abusive than they are.

    Studies have shown that corporal punishment is not the most effective way to teach a kid the difference between right and wrong. Studies have further shown that the parents have far, far more of an impact on a child's behaviour than even the favorite teachers. And I assure you, no matter what you think, a teacher is paid to educate a child, not raise one.
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  6. #36
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    Now don't be hitting me with that BB gun Miss Gillian. Wrong poster. I would sooooo kick that man's backside if I saw him doing that.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Are you all stepping back and reading what you are writing? I'm seeing disappointing replies from people who's input I normally respect.
    I feel the same for a completely different reason. Folks are still giving personal theories about why it theoretically should or shouldn't work, and anecdotes that are meaningless in the big picture, instead of discussing or making any attmept to find more data showing whether or not it really actually does work... even after I pointed out the problem that we were dealing with guesses and gut feelings instead of dealing with FACTS, and introduced some of the latter as analyzed by a statistician. Without trying to measure whether something actually has positive effects or negative effects more often, ideas and expectations about what the numbers should or would be are meaningless.

    You could point out an example of someone who came out just fine after lots of beatings and someone else who wasn't disciplined and grew up to be worthless trash... but you could also point out an example of someone who came out fine without being hit as a kid and someone else who was turned into an evil beast by childhood abuse. ALL of it would be meaningless because they're anecdotes, not data. The same goes for explanations of the supposed mechanisms for how this practice must lead to better kids or worse kids. We could think up such explanations all day, but in the end they'd all just be stuff we made up, not reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    One person's crushing is another persons molding.
    So you're saying it's not necessarily a good thing and can just as well lead to bad results, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Yeah, I've seen bad parenting. I've also seen bad carpentry. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with saws or nails. Spanking is a tool of parenting.
    The analogy is worthless for two reasons. First, it's impossible to make stuff with wood without cutting/breaking it and pretty close to impossible for most purposes without sticking something into it like nails or screws, but raising kids is NOT impossible without beating them. Second, there's no such thing as wood abuse, but child abuse is a real thing to be avoided. So by using the analogy, you're trying to give us a starting point that dictates only one possible outcome: there are no other choices but to do it, and it has no possible negative consequences.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    I have seen parents who think they're being responsible who are being abusive. Very seldom have I seen a parent who thinks they're more abusive than they are.
    That's a very important point for a parent or future parent who's deciding whether or not to ever start down this path at all: once you get started at all, you could go farther than you think you would, and you wouldn't even know it while it was happening, almost as if you're not really in control anymore or the experience has somehow deprived you of your grasp of reality on the subject... which also means that after you've gotten started there's no way you can prevent that from happening or know ahead of time that you won't be one of the ones that get carried away with it. After all, absolutely everybody else who's ever gone too far before has started out the same way: thinking they wouldn't because they'd keep it under control. The only way to make certain that you will not become one of them and create a disaster is to never get started on that path at all in the first place.

    That's the kind of setup that I've only seen before in addiction scenarios.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Now don't be hitting me with that BB gun Miss Gillian. Wrong poster. I would sooooo kick that man's backside if I saw him doing that.
    I'm not saying you said it, dear Don. I'm saying that being upset at someone who would do that is a good thing!

    Children have been shown to respond better to positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. In fact, the person I knew who was physically disciplined most without being what I would consider to be beaten was frankly too dumb to get into as much trouble as the corporal punishment she received might have merited, if I believed it's ever merited to be spanked with a wooden spoon. (Especially not if the older siblings are the ones instructed to discipline the younger one by spanking her with it!)

    And yeah, Don, that is something you said, though it isn't why I brought it up. I brought it up because it's an example I can call on from my own life. It's also a practice that the AAP (American Association of Pediatrics) decries as abusive. Now, I know and trust you, and I doubt that you'd've hit your kids hard at all. However, research has indeed shown that corporal punishment only increases immediate obedience following the corporal punishment, and that in the long run, it's deleterious.
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  10. #40
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    Midshipman Kidd is now nearing on three. We did decided that spanking would be on our disciplinary list, but only on a last resort basis.

    I'm going to make a rather bad analogy. The sister-in-law owns a dalmatian. The neighboring farmer raises emus. Unfortunately, the dalmatian thought it was great fun to go bark at the emus. One day she came back with a slice on her leg that definitely looked like a graze from either a rifle or buckshot. Their choices were to keep her in the house all day, fence the yard, or get an invisible fence. Keeping her in the house all day wasn't an option, she's not an indoor dog although she does sleep in the house at nights and comes in when it's raining or cold. Fencing as much yard as they have was too expensive and impracticable. So they bought the broadcast style of invisible fence. The dog got shocked a few times, but was quick on learning her limits. Now she frequently can be let out without having to have the collar put on.

    OK, now to somehow tie that into the thread. The occasional shock the dog got from the collar was by far better than her getting maimed or killed. Similarly, a properly applied spanking can be a tool to teach a child boundaries. For example, Kiddlett starting biting awhile back. He was still too young to reason with and "no" did nothing. A quick, light pop on the diapered bottom immediately when he bit ended up making him stop. As I said, it was through his diaper and never strong, as a matter of fact, we think it more surprised him than hurt. Timed to be immediately following his bite, he quickly associated his biting with this strange jolt to his bottom and quit surprisingly quick.

    Now that he's starting to talk, whole new possibilities of discipline are opening up. He's learning cause and effect, and is starting to understand than when we tell him to stop X or we'll have to do something (say stop throwing food or we'll leave the restaurant), he's becoming quick to understand and obey. Especially as we're careful to never bluff and try to shape the discipline to more than just the action.

    We're learning with him too, we've learned how important eye contact is when we're giving him verbal instructions or discipline. If he's not looking at us, there's a good chance something has his attention and thus he's not hearing what we're telling him. Thus, we take responsibility if he immediately returns to what he was doing that got him into trouble in the first place.

    The infamous "bathroom talks" we all know and love have started up. So far they've all been just that, taking him to the bathroom where there's far less distractions and having a cool-down time and a discussion about why he can't do whatever it was he's doing. Now that we've done it a few times, just the verbal phrase "do we need to go to the bathroom and have a talk?" does wonders to bring him into check when "stop" and "no" just isn't working.

    Somebody mentioned earlier about trust. We both believe that that's a, if not the, major factor in good discipline. He knows we're not going to discipline him out-of-hand or too severely, and thus he trusts us when we tell him to do something. When we do overstep ourselves, we can tell instantly by his reaction. When you really pay attention to you child, it's amazing the non-verbal communication that takes place.

    As a side note, I fully believe that there is a very definite difference between spanking and beating a child. But I've yet to successfully figure out how to express that, hence the novel of a post. For one, the former should be a tool, and as such, should be used properly and only when truly necessary and never in excess. Slaps, such as to the face, are way over the line except maybe in some extremely rare circumstance that I can't imagine at the moment.

    I also am of the opinion that non-physical discipline/abuse can be just as bad or worse than the physical kind. Bruises heal, but psychological scars seem to last a far longer time. And yes, physical abuse does do psychological damage too, but at the same time, psychological damage seems to be worse when there's no contact involved. My wife still remembers and is troubled by some of the chillingly horrific things her mother said to her while laughing about the legit spankings.

    Everything I've said is anecdotal and thus open to major error on my part. Which is one reason we avoid spankings. As Delvo pointed out, it's easy to lapse into a routine and unknowingly go too far. I've seen it happen and never want to become that way. Also, if what Kiddlett did made us angry, we absolutely do not spank. There's way too much of a chance that we're going to go out of bounds and there's too much of a vengeance vibe to it.

    Kiddlett has proven himself to be a very obedient child who wants to please us, and we do lavish the positive reinforcement. It usually only takes a word or two in a "I'm disappointed in your actions" tone of voice to bring him up short at which point we thank him for stopping what he was doing and help him to divert his energy elsewhere.

    /random babbling

  11. #41
    The orginal post stated, "This is a situation where I would not object to a parent or two beating their brat purple with police in attendance laughing at said student." Being beaten until your body is purple can be a life threatening condition and even this might not be enough to get some children to behave. My father was a rebellious child and no matter what punishments he received he still wouldn't behave himself. His skeleton is messed up from what his parents did to him. My point is that some people don't respond well to beatings and you should consider what you are going to do about these students. For example will you beat them until they risk death, imprision them, or simply release them to engage in more disobedient behaviour?

  12. #42
    Punny title notwithstanding, everyone knows it's really "corporeal," right?

    I wonder if you lose the association of punishment to crime if physical punishment happens too often if you're going to be beaten regularly, regardless, there's no incentive not to misbehave anymore. It seems to me that the effectiveness of punishment is limited, anyway, if the person is willing to suffer it (and only if they are caught). It just becomes the cost of doing business.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by swansont View Post
    Punny title notwithstanding, everyone knows it's really "corporeal," right?
    Actually, it really is "corporal."
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Are you all stepping back and reading what you are writing? I'm seeing disappointing replies from people who's input I normally respect. Crushing spirits? Any of you all raise any children? One person's crushing is another persons molding.
    Yup. I'm well aware of everything I've written. One of my personal rules-of-living is to mean what I say and say what I mean, at least when I'm being serious.

    As for raising children, no. But I do raise and train cats. Six and counting. My last two were both atypical cases. My fifth was born feral and required special handling to earn and maintain trust. She was restrained in her dealings with humans, but like all animals, quite capable of lashing out violently if sufficiently threatened.

    My sixth, the one that passed away recently, was a cat who showed signs of a troubled past. A very sensitive, placid cat, but one who appeared to have trust issues. It took years of work before she tolerated being picked up. Close to a half-decade with me before she began to crave it. Last year was the first time she'd ever asked for it

    My point is, yeah. I'm quite familiar with "instilling values" in critters even more psychopathic, self-centered, and limited in their ability to reason and communicate than are children.

    Before you can train a cat, you have to earn its trust. You can't do that if you're physically coercing it. It's also far, far easier to redirect the cat's behavior than it is to forbid or introduce something completely new. And the funny thing is, it's the same in people, both adults and children.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Not least because you should have instilled proper values in your kid before they're old enough to go to school--and if you haven't by high school, it's probably too late for the teacher to do it.
    Best thought of the thread so far. If a kid is open to doing stuff like that, they learned something (or didn't learn something) long before they got to school. And yes, the pressure of peers is a factor, but even there, the child was open to that pressure because of learnings (or lack of) before they even got to Grade K.

    To be clear, the kids are not victims; I don't buy into that schtick at all. But what they act out is what they learned. If a person has to hit to get across a point, then they have made a choice about one of the ways they teach - by using physical force.

    Plenty of kids learn how to be good citizens without ever being struck, so it can be done. If a parent chooses physical force to be in their repertoire of teaching tools, so be it - it can be effective. Does not make it the best or only way.

    My story (and I am aware my personal anecdote is just that, and doesn't equate to universal cause and effect). I had a stepdad who was a liberal user of corporal punishment. That changed our relationship permanently. Sure I learned some better behaviors, but I also learned to dislike him quite strongly. I avoided him, lied to him, hid certain beliefs, never confided anything meaningful, etc. The biggest learnings I got from him was him as a model for the kind of parent I was never going to be.

    So in a way, I owe him for such a great childhood-long lesson on what a jerk looks like from a kids perspective.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by glasspusher View Post
    A guy I worked with told me about a time he was at a friends house and as they where in the living room talking, the kids were in the kitchen doing dishes. The kids soon began to argue and fight. Their father reached down along side of his chair and pulled out a "BB" pistol and pulled back the slide bolt. Things got real quiet except for the sound of dishes being washed. Turns out he used the "BB" gun to discipine the kids so he didn't have to get up to spank them. All of his kids had been tagged a time or two and would knock it off at the sound of the gun being calked. Sounds a bit harsh and even cruel to me, but its hard to argue hith results.
    That's precious. He could have gotten the same result by burning them with lit cigarettes, but probably would have thought that to be too much effort.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose View Post
    Mom spanked until I rounded on her (at age 6, maybe?) and kicked her in the shin, as hard as I could. I was quite a bit older when I came close to rounding on my father the last time he tried to physically intimidate me.

    We're on much better terms now, but the family almost fell apart before that happened.

    Discipline through violence begets only fear, more violence, and distrust. The question that needs to be asked is, IMO, is obediance worth that price? I say no.
    I hear you there. I was 16 when I finally hit back (tried to anyway). That was just shocking enough for my parents that they did not know what to do; and it seemed to generate an uneasy peace. He wanted to really wail on me, but I think in the few hours I was out, my mom convinced him I was going to take off, and she did not want that. I bid my time, existed with the tension for a bit, and moved out a few months later shortly after I turned 17.

    Ours family did fall completely apart shortly thereafter though.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Are you all stepping back and reading what you are writing? I'm seeing disappointing replies from people who's input I normally respect. Crushing spirits? Any of you all raise any children? One person's crushing is another persons molding. Yeah, I've seen bad parenting. I've also seen bad carpentry. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with saws or nails. Spanking is a tool of parenting. Children want boundries. So they know what the rules are. It makes them more confident when they know they are where they are supposed to be.
    Raising 2 right now, 7 and 9 years of age. They are models of behavior, no broken will, very outspoken but very polite, engage in none of the brutish behavior of many of their peers, inquisitive, courteous, high spirited, independent, a respect for authority but not afraid to question anything. I don't think I could ask for more. And they have never ever been spanked.

    Amazingly they have learned the rules and know the boundaries without ever having been struck.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose View Post
    That's a pretty bleak viewpoint, Doodler.

    I've yet to encounter an employer who tried to physically abuse me. Physical domination is now the moral domain of the parent... and the criminal.
    The physical punishment, as it were, are the physical consequences of unemployment. Loss of ability to feed oneself, loss of ability to put a roof over one's head, loss of ability to move about freely. Lots of ways to make someone physically suffer without raising a hand in anger.



    Really? I've legally consented to follow my boss's instructions. I've not consented to follow orders. Ultimately, though, I have the ability to disobey utterly: by resigning rather than follow an illegal or immoral instruction. His ability to coerce me is limited to laying me off.
    True, and your employer can terminate you. The key is discipline, and the ability to either put the hand that pays' interests ahead of your own, or realign your interests with theirs.

    He doesn't require my obedience (which he wouldn't get.) Just access to my skill set, my time, and my cooperation towards the goals he's defined.
    Obedience to company policies is established employment etiquette. And with the new level of nanny logic applied by some companies who consider seeing to their employees health to be an inconvenience they'd rather not have to pay for, employers are beginning to leave their fingerprints on the personal lives of their employees. Take recent "health" initiatives some companies are taking where they fire people who smoke, period, not just at the office, but at home or anywhere, or some that are imposing costs or restrictions on employees who are out of shape. Believe me, my view is bleak because I see the landscape becoming bleaker.

    You seek to distill the meaning of my words to simple physical violence. Negative reinforcement in the adult world is less hand on, yet can be far more sadistic.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    I have seen parents who think they're being responsible who are being abusive. Very seldom have I seen a parent who thinks they're more abusive than they are.
    It is very rare to see corporal punishment being doled out by a calm parent. They are usually in an emotionally charged state. With rare exceptions, the instances I have witnessed and been a part of are more the parent acting out of anger and hostility. It is more the parent blowing off steam than trying to teach a lesson. Parents need to learn the count-to-ten trick at least as much as their kids.

    When a parent jumps quickly to hitting while in an emotionally charged state, they are teaching a very bad lesson.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodler View Post
    You seek to distill the meaning of my words to simple physical violence. Negative reinforcement in the adult world is less hand on, yet can be far more sadistic.
    You're reaching. In any case, this thread is about corporal punishment. Not negative reinforcement. Nobody here is saying that only positive reinforement is valid (although there are plenty of studies that show negative reinforcement is of limited effectiveness, and what benefit it has fades in minutes.)

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose View Post
    You're reaching. In any case, this thread is about corporal punishment. Not negative reinforcement. Nobody here is saying that only positive reinforement is valid (although there are plenty of studies that show negative reinforcement is of limited effectiveness, and what benefit it has fades in minutes.)
    A bit, perhaps.

    I don't believe corporal punishment should be the first step taken in correcting behavior. I believe it has two applications.

    1) Chronic disobedience. Step over the line too many times and enough becomes enough.

    2) Extraordinary disobedience. Step far enough over the line, even once, and you get no warnings.

    Kids get out of line, its part of their nature. Its a normal part of being human. You can't make people like everyone around them, you can't make someone completely unselfish, and you can't make everyone like every rule that gets imposed on them. Nothing you do is ever going to clamp down such disruptive behavior in kids completely, its not possible. People who think it is possible are delusional at best, and those who try are truly abusive (take the recent thread about medicating kids into submission we had around here). Not every tantrum should invoke a brutal response, that is criminal, but push long enough, or hard enough, and exceptional measures should be there to deal with it.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodler View Post
    A bit, perhaps.

    I don't believe corporal punishment should be the first step taken in correcting behavior. I believe it has two applications.

    1) Chronic disobedience. Step over the line too many times and enough becomes enough.

    2) Extraordinary disobedience. Step far enough over the line, even once, and you get no warnings.

    Kids get out of line, its part of their nature. Its a normal part of being human. You can't make people like everyone around them, you can't make someone completely unselfish, and you can't make everyone like every rule that gets imposed on them. Nothing you do is ever going to clamp down such disruptive behavior in kids completely, its not possible. People who think it is possible are delusional at best, and those who try are truly abusive (take the recent thread about medicating kids into submission we had around here). Not every tantrum should invoke a brutal response, that is criminal, but push long enough, or hard enough, and exceptional measures should be there to deal with it.
    Okay, who are you and what did you do with the real Doodler? If he has come to harm I shall be displeased.

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Actually, it really is "corporal."
    Mea culpa. I had always assumed that was an eggcorn, like mute/moot and jive/jibe.

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    My solution to this problem would be to end presential schooling. Schools are becoming degenerate places. Nobdoy should be forced to frequent them.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Brak View Post
    I'm pretty disgusted with today's youth.
    Umm... Where I've heard this before?

    There's a mention of terrible youth from the ancient Egypt (ca. 1000 BC). Ancient Greeks in Athens also lamented their bad behavior. Some things never change...

  27. #57
    Personally, I'm against corporal punishment. It brings more problems than it solves.

    However, for example in cases where a schoolchild seriously disturbs teaching use of force should be allowed.

  28. #58
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    Kind of a hypothetical response, because I can't see my kids would ever do something that the average school administrator would think to warrant hitting one of them; but, if they ever did take license to striking one of them in any way there would be over-the-top action on my part. Since I've never struck them, I would absolutely raise Cain if someone else did. In my book, it is assault.

    Schools should not have the right to strike children in any way, other than in self defense of an imminent danger. It's a crime to strike an adult, and there should not be an exception for striking children. If a kid does something so bad it makes an adult want to hit them; then they should take appropriate actions like suspensions & expulsions, or if things are bad enough, press charges. Those things are probably more of a burden on the parents than anyone, which is most likely where the burden belongs.

    Burden a parent with having to provide daily transportation to a special school and they might pay a little more attention to the way their kid is behaving. I suppose there could be the ironic response (coming full circle) of having the burdened parent knock the kids around a bit.

  29. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    10,433
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Okay, who are you and what did you do with the real Doodler? If he has come to harm I shall be displeased.
    Doodler is in the midst of an unusual streak of human behavior which may or may not have to do with his having had two nights out in the last seven days.

    Please do not be alarmed, this period of abnormally rational behavior will wear off in due course.


  30. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by swansont View Post
    Mea culpa. I had always assumed that was an eggcorn, like mute/moot and jive/jibe.
    "Eggcorn" is a term I've not heard before. I would call those "homophones." Where'd you pick up "eggcorn"?

    I've no problem with swatting a kid once on the diaper (and it would be a diaper, in all likelihood) for, say, going for the interesting pills in the bottles in the medicine cabinet--and there'll be plenty of those in my household, of course! Or running into the street, maybe. Things that are not merely disobedient but dangerous, and done before you can really have a conversation with the kid.

    Once you're able to talk, you're old enough to have it explained to you what you did and why you shouldn't do it.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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