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Thread: Time to promote corporal punishment to sergeant?

  1. #1
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    Time to promote corporal punishment to sergeant?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18059561/

    This is a situation where I would not object to a parent or two beating their brat purple with police in attendance laughing at said student.

    Pain is brutal, its primitive, but it tends to work.

    Ok, bleedinghearts, step up, I want to hear you rationalize why these kids aren't in pain right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodler View Post
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18059561/

    This is a situation where I would not object to a parent or two beating their brat purple with police in attendance laughing at said student.

    Pain is brutal, its primitive, but it tends to work.

    Ok, bleedinghearts, step up, I want to hear you rationalize why these kids aren't in pain right now.
    Because it doesn't actually work to prevent further instances of misbehaviour?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Because it doesn't actually work to prevent further instances of misbehaviour?
    Not quite true--as I learned in psychology class, negative reinforcement DOES work--well-tested on animals and children. We've gone about a generation or two with the Dr. Spock don't-discipline-the-kids attitude, and what have we gained?

    kids shooting each other in schools (or in nearby to me Annapolis, the mall after school), hypersensitive kids, or how about road rage? There was a time when a bad kid was one who rang the doorbell and ran....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdvance View Post
    There was a time when a bad kid was one who rang the doorbell and ran....
    That time wasn't all that long ago, either... maybe fifteen years.

    When I was in elementary school fifteen years ago, drugs were pretty much unheard of, even in my grade seven class. Maybe two kids touched them. When my brother, six years younger than me, was in grade seven, a bunch of the grade one kids in his school got busted smoking pot. That's a pretty big jump for a short time span. Ringing the doorbell and running was bad. Bart Simpson was still a rebel. "Eat my shorts" would get you detention.

    Bad language eventually got too prevalent to punish everyone... so no one tried. I blame it partly on professional wrestling (and mostly on bad parenting). Much as I loved wrestling at the time, I know that that's where a lot of the mind set filtered down from.

    But even bad language and drugs is still a long way from actually assaulting teachers.

    Great thread title, by the way.

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    I agree with Doodler, there are times when corporal punishment should be used and this is one of them.
    ...I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdvance View Post
    Not quite true--as I learned in psychology class, negative reinforcement DOES work--well-tested on animals and children. We've gone about a generation or two with the Dr. Spock don't-discipline-the-kids attitude, and what have we gained?
    Well, contrary to public perception, incidences of violent crime among teenagers is down in recent years. However, "negative reinforcement" and "corporal punishment" are not always the same thing.
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

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    I'm pretty disgusted with today's youth. According to the article someone pulled down a teacher's pants, another teacher walked through cellophane tape covering a door and a student used ketchup to fake a head injury. I can tell you that back in the days of corporal punishment children never did things like this. Generally they stuck to tried and true methods such as thumbtacks on the teacher's seat, moustraps in the draw and putting a bag over his head from behind and beating the stuffing out of him. Not to mention the full blown rebellions that occured in some bording schools, complete with fatalities. I don't know what's wrong with kids these days. They all seem to have gone soft. If they tear out a fingernail they start crying, if they break a leg they faint. I say they need some corporal punishment to toughen them up. Then we'll see some real disobedience on youtube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Brak View Post
    another teacher walked through cellophane tape covering a door
    That's actually very clever.

    Now that you mention it, I do remember thumbtacks on the chairs. Perhaps I am becoming a curmudgeony old guy? Next year I'll have to tell stories about walking uphill to school, both ways. Still, no one ever actually touched a teacher.

    I also remember someone replacing the teacher's anti-flatulence pills with sugar pills. That one only happened once.

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    NOO!
    Corporal punishment absolutely does not work. When I used to live in Romania, the school administration had no limits on corporal punishment other than outright "slaughter". My math teacher in particular used quite advanced forms of beating, including slaps to the face, actually tearing off an earlobe (not really intentional, but still), and meter stick whacks which left black marks. If corporal punishment in the US is promoted to "sergeant", then you better watch your kids, since there will be teachers like my math teacher, who will abuse their powers.

    I do understand that a lot of the things teenagers do are unacceptable. I should, because I AM ONE!! However, most of the ideas they get come from popular media and its influences. Recently, I heard, a group of fifth graders, being alone in the classroom, started doing things way too inappropriate for this forum. They wouldn't have known about this if it weren't for readily available material on the internet and on TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Because it doesn't actually work to prevent further instances of misbehaviour?
    Actually, pain, given in close proximity to the offense, and coupled with effective retraining, is highly effective at preventing further instances of misbehaviour.

    But that's only if one treats their children as lab animals.

    I was talking with my son on the phone yesterday, and after wrestling with him wanting to continue the movie, play with his video game, or go with a walk for mom, he finally asked me, "so what's the punishment if I don't talk with you any more?"

    I replied, "Punishment? There's no punishment. You're seven years old, Son. Old enough to make up your own mind between what's wrong and right."

    Relieved of his errant belief that punishment was upon him, he promptly switched his tune and eagerly engaged me in a conversation about anything and everything for the next thirty minutes.

    Until his mom cut him off for a "much needed walk" at dusk just as she realized how well he and I were getting along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by foreignkid View Post
    NOO!
    Corporal punishment absolutely does not work. When I used to live in Romania, the school administration had no limits on corporal punishment other than outright "slaughter". My math teacher in particular used quite advanced forms of beating, including slaps to the face, actually tearing off an earlobe (not really intentional, but still), and meter stick whacks which left black marks. If corporal punishment in the US is promoted to "sergeant", then you better watch your kids, since there will be teachers like my math teacher, who will abuse their powers.
    There were pretty strict regs in place when it was more common. Bruises were fine, blood was not. The ear bit in the US would have been the end of a teachers career even at the relative height of corporal punishment's use.

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    I think it's one of those things you have to judge on a case-by case basis depending on the nature and cause of the misbehavior.

    For instance, everyone on the show "My super sweet 16" needs a smack.
    The kids for being spoiled brats, the parents for spoiling and not diciplining their kids, and the producers who put people like that on T.V. making it look like a good thing to the kids who watch it.

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    When my little ones were still little only two things warrented corporal punishment, biting, which can't be tolerated and throwing things in the house as I have a house full of aquariums. Boo had a problem with both. But after they got to five or so all I had to do was make a production of going to the kitchen to "get the spoon". ( A wooden salad spoon)

    Then I would wave the spoon around and holler and let them think they just avoided a spanking when I actually had no intention of smacking them. That worked well for years. So one or two spankings so they understand the consiquences are real, then bluffing works from there. Just keep in mind they don't know you are bluffing and terrifieing children is "unlovely".
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    This subject always gets people talking about whether and why physical punishment is good or bad, based on their lines of reasoning and experience, what they think and expect will happen. But what about what the facts show? There's plenty of history of both people doing and people not doing it, and plenty of history of outcomes like grades and crime and later-in-life incomes...

    I have a book called "Freakonomics" (because the theme is the use of the mathematical tools of economics and statistics on the numbers of social phenomena) which is the only one I know of to have looked into this issue based on examining the facts rather than just pondering ideas. Its author found that, if you eliminate other proposed factors by only comparing families that are equal in those other factors (like comparing the poor to the poor and the rich to the rich in order to eliminate wealth as a factor), then whether or not parents use physical punishment on their children makes no difference in any measurable outcome in the children's lives then or later. It is generally associated with bad outcomes (low grades, high crime rates, low income later in life I think), but only by association: other bad parental behaviors might cause those results, but then using physical punishment on the children is just an irrelevant choice that's more often made by bad parents.

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    Delvo, it sure stops biting.
    Time wasted having fun is not time wasted - Lennon
    (John, not the other one.)

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    There were pretty strict regs in place when it was more common. Bruises were fine, blood was not. The ear bit in the US would have been the end of a teachers career even at the relative height of corporal punishment's use.
    But if you make rules againts death and mutilation then children will know that they aren't really going to be hurt. A spanking might work fine for many children, but to break the will of some children you are going to need the option of inflicting high levels of both physical and psychological pain. Otherwise some willful children will merely become resentful and more disobedient.

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    I am sorry for what the students did to the teacher.

    I say not all youths today are like that. It all comes back to basic, "The Family". It's where the foundations are formed to a child. Teaching , guiding and setting good examples of the parents are what the child see in his everyday life as he grows.

    With all the technology nowadays, parents usually doesn't have time to be with their kids. "Quality Time" with them is important, the bonding of a child and the parent are important. It makes a child confident of himself as he grows and able to think and reason for himself.

    Punishment is part of parents responsibility in guiding and teaching the child the right from wrong, the good from bad. And it should always follows with an explanation coming from the parent why he has to punish his kid. This is important , because the kid will then able to understand and realize in his young mind that what he did was wrong or not right and will not have a negative attitude towards receiving a punishment.


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    I'd say expel them, if only for the sake of their classmates.
    Children like that have no place in the classroom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    I'd say expel them, if only for the sake of their classmates.
    Children like that have no place in the classroom.
    Yes, if thats the best idea so that others wont do the same.
    BUT before doing that, they should know the reason why these kids have such behavior? Talk to their parents. Maybe there is a reason behind. And every behavior have rootcauses.



  20. #20
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    Sure there is, it's seen as "cool" behavior with no consequences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    Sure there is, it's seen as "cool" behavior with no consequences.
    Is that means, having such behavior in the youth groups is "cool" that you are "IN" the society in the school. So if there is no Consequences "Enforced" on such behavior , these kids won't realized that it is NOT a "Cool" behavior that they should straighten up, so if they do that , they will be next.

    Enforcing Punishment to kids is not bad. Its the "How" it is being enforced by the "Enforcers" (Teachers/School or Parents/Home).
    I think it is still depends on the upbringing of the Parents at home , in how they are molding their kids the "Right" way , so that when they come out and go to school , they brought whatever is taught to them at home and these incidents will unlikely to happen.

    And its the same also on the Teachers , because they are the 2nd Parents of these kids. If they are treating them properly, students won't be provoked in doing such things.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirlpool View Post
    And its the same also on the Teachers , because they are the 2nd Parents of these kids. If they are treating them properly, students won't be provoked in doing such things.
    Oh, I strongly disagree with this one. Teachers are not second parents. That's not their job; that's not what they're paid for. Not least because you should have instilled proper values in your kid before they're old enough to go to school--and if you haven't by high school, it's probably too late for the teacher to do it.

    I've had very, very inspirational, hard-working teachers before. Teachers who went out of their way for kids, spent their own money on classroom projects, and took hours of their own time every week. And yes, these teachers had kids who treated them like poo. Some kids just will, no matter what the teacher has done to "provoke" them. Some kids, no matter what teachers or parents do, are just rotten.

    Blessedly few; don't get me wrong there. But to say that things don't happen unless they're provoked is a narrow-minded view of the situation and leads the way to all sorts of things I know you didn't mean. People don't provoke robberies, for example, or racist assaults. Violence and general, all-around bad behaviour is not always provoked by the person on whom it is turned.
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    I think part of it is this myth that children are innocents that are spoiled by bad upbringing.
    I my view, children start as utterly self-focused psychopaths, and have to be taught everything including the fact that other people matter. This is the job of the parents, as most of this teaching happens before kindergarten.
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    A guy I worked with told me about a time he was at a friends house and as they where in the living room talking, the kids were in the kitchen doing dishes. The kids soon began to argue and fight. Their father reached down along side of his chair and pulled out a "BB" pistol and pulled back the slide bolt. Things got real quiet except for the sound of dishes being washed. Turns out he used the "BB" gun to discipine the kids so he didn't have to get up to spank them. All of his kids had been tagged a time or two and would knock it off at the sound of the gun being calked. Sounds a bit harsh and even cruel to me, but its hard to argue hith results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glasspusher View Post
    Sounds a bit harsh and even cruel to me, but its hard to argue hith results.
    No, it isn't. If you've (mataphorically) "beaten" kids into submission to such an extent that they constantly live in such fear of you that they'll go into fight-or-flight mode the instant they're reminded of your presence because they're that convinced that you're out to harm them again, you haven't exactly done them much good.

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    One may get obedience through threat of spanking/violence, but one often trades obedience for trust.

    When I was in elementary school, the principal and vice-principal were known to use "the strap" to enforce discipline among the more incorrigible. (It wasn't a bluff, or not entirely. I've never been threatened with it, but I've personally seen the thing once in a context unrelated to discipline.)

    There were teachers I trusted a great deal, that had I ever been in real trouble, real no-kidding trouble, I would have genuinely opened up to at need. I would not, however, have trusted the principal or vice-principal. Even as an adult, and I know them both socially, I simply do not have confidence in them. I would have talked as a kid if questioned, but only out of raw fear of them. And I would have told them anything they wanted to hear.

    In a way, it's the same with my parents. I trust them (now) but still only to a point. Between that and middle/high school, where I encountered a great deal of hostility and a near constant threat of violence, I'm still very uncomfortable with having people moving around behind me.

    Mom spanked until I rounded on her (at age 6, maybe?) and kicked her in the shin, as hard as I could. I was quite a bit older when I came close to rounding on my father the last time he tried to physically intimidate me.

    We're on much better terms now, but the family almost fell apart before that happened.

    Discipline through violence begets only fear, more violence, and distrust. The question that needs to be asked is, IMO, is obediance worth that price? I say no.
    "Words that make questions may not be questions at all."
    - Neil deGrasse Tyson, answering loaded question in ten words or less
    at a 2010 talk MCed by Stephen Colbert.

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    I was thwacked every day when I was a kid. Did it help? Not at all. All it did was make me even more of a nervous wreck than I already was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Oh, I strongly disagree with this one. Teachers are not second parents.
    Uh, actually, Gillianren, with their 7 hours they spend each day with the kids, that's precisely what they are, throughout all phases of child rearing, development, etc. Furthermore, they're taught principles and techniques of child rearing that most parents never learn.

    And yes, they're paid to do that, because human adults today drop their kids off at school on a regular basis fully expecting the school to take them from age 5 to age 18.

    Personally, Gillianren, I don't agree with it. I'm a home-schooling nut at heart. But the truth is, regardless of whether you or I like it, or accept it.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
    No, it isn't. If you've (mataphorically) "beaten" kids into submission to such an extent that they constantly live in such fear of you that they'll go into fight-or-flight mode the instant they're reminded of your presence because they're that convinced that you're out to harm them again, you haven't exactly done them much good.
    Which is pretty much what employers will do throughout most of their lives, better to train them to cope with it young.

    The world kisses no one's booty, and really doesn't care if you respect it. Obedience is something of a requirement, though.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugaliens View Post
    Uh, actually, Gillianren, with their 7 hours they spend each day with the kids, that's precisely what they are, throughout all phases of child rearing, development, etc. Furthermore, they're taught principles and techniques of child rearing that most parents never learn.
    Not throughout all the phases--not, for example, in the most important one for children's development, that before they reach school age. Besides, we don't want teachers to teach values unless those values agree with ours, so people don't want teachers to be second parents.

    And yes, they're paid to do that, because human adults today drop their kids off at school on a regular basis fully expecting the school to take them from age 5 to age 18.
    That may be what people expect, but it's not what they're paying teachers for. Teachers are paid to instill knowledge, not values. Values are the domain of the parent, and proper values will not usually be instilled in a child after they reach about seven; ask the Jesuits. The patterns set in early childhood are (usually) the patterns the child will follow for the rest of the child's life. How, exactly, is any teacher beyond kindergarten (where the teachers are still not paid to be second teachers) supposed to provide the kind of early childhood instruction that teaches a child the difference between right and wrong?

    Personally, Gillianren, I don't agree with it. I'm a home-schooling nut at heart. But the truth is, regardless of whether you or I like it, or accept it.
    I don't much care for home-schooling, either. It misses several important aspects of education that, while not what we technically send our children to school for, they nevertheless learn. Social interaction, for example. That's another thing I think you have to learn young, but it's still not the teacher's job; it's the effect of interacting with other children every day.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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