Medicating kids to death...

[Doodler]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17758170/

If the US doesn't have a declining population, breeding nitwits like these degenerate mongrels are a sure sign we could use one for a generation or three...

I knew we'd eventually see crap like this, parents so freaking incompetent they'd pill their kids into mental oblivion for the sake of their inability to cope with anything disturbing their perfect little worlds. "ADHD" has become a frelling buzzword for "I'm too lazy to handle a rambunctious toddler". If there's a person here who needs medication, its the mother who pushed this case over the edge, preferably in the form of a three drug combination administered intravenously...

[Gillianren]

Wait, they got someone to diagnose a four-year-old as bipolar? The parents clearly aren't the only ones at fault, here. My diagnosis is considered suspicious because the disease doesn't usually manifest at all until puberty; mine (third grade, give or take) was abnormally early.

What's more, all the medication I've been prescribed (and granted, I haven't gotten the stuff for my actual bipolar disorder yet; I've been having problems with the state) thus far has had big warnings on it saying you shouldn't be taking the stuff if you're under 18. Rightfully, so, too; your brain hasn't finished developing yet, and you can really screw it up by fiddling with its chemistry too soon. Apparently, teenagers are more prone to addiction for just that reason.

But yeah, it's a real problem. And this coming from me. It's not necessarily that we're overmedicated as a culture; it's that the meds aren't going to the right people and are often going to the wrong ones.

ETA: And the woman prescribing my meds wouldn't put me on Depakote, because the side effects are so nasty!

[publius]

This is one of my hot buttons, of course. When I read that, I have to completely turn my off my emotions. Otherwise, I'll get into a state that can only be decribed as "bloodlust".

If anything good can come of this, it will be bringing this problem to the public's attention in a rather stark way. However, the warning signs have been there for years. There was a recent report about the alarming rise of the use of *anti-psychotics* for children under the age of 10. I'm not joking, antipsychotics. And that's just the tip of it.

The reckless use of powerful psychotropic drugs is a big problem, and it takes something like this to get the public attention. A 4-yr old girl, weakly goes to her parent's bedroom asking "mommy...." and she's back to bed with more "happy pills" to die.

In reading that story and others about this, it seems the parents are going to blame the psychiatrists. They were just meekly "following doctor's orders". Yeah, right.

While the psychiatrists and others doctors doing this are on the receiving end of my fury, the parents actions are unspeakable.

-Richard

[Gillianren]

I will bet you a very large sum of money that the doctor didn't say they should combine Depakote and OTC medications. Rather the opposite, in fact.

[HenrikOlsen]

Incidentally, it was Clonidine that she overdosed on, not Depakote.

Rebecca’s uncle, James McGonnell, and his girlfriend, Kelly Williams, who lived with the Rileys, told police that the Rileys would put their kids to bed as early as 5 p.m. Rebecca, they said, often slept through the day and got up only to eat.

When Michael Riley decided the kids were “acting up,” he told Carolyn to give them pills, McGonnell and Williams told police.

This definitely gives the impression that the parents where not following a dosage as prescribed by the psychiatrist, but was adjusting the dosage based on their own idea of what should happen.
When that happens, in my mind, the psychiatrist may be at some fault for prescribing the drug, but the ultimate responsibility is squarely with the parents for not using it as prescribed.

[publius]

What's more, all the medication I've been prescribed (and granted, I haven't gotten the stuff for my actual bipolar disorder yet; I've been having problems with the state) thus far has had big warnings on it saying you shouldn't be taking the stuff if you're under 18. Rightfully, so, too; your brain hasn't finished developing yet, and you can really screw it up by fiddling with its chemistry too soon. Apparently, teenagers are more prone to addiction for just that reason.

That "black box" warning on SSRIs for increased "suicidality" under 18 did not come until near the end of 2004. And it was like pulling teeth to get that. The FDA is now considering raising the age to 25.

Now, the pychiastrists oppose the black box warning, and there's a war of statistics going on where they say there's "an alarming increase of teen suicide" because the black box warning is discouraging the use of them. Last I saw, the number of prescriptions actually *rose* during the time the "increased suicide" data was gleamed. Anyway, the physchiastrists are against the warning, others are far it.

The AMA seems to speak out of all sorts of sides of its mouth depending on which internal faction has control of the mouth at any time.

There are roughly 15 million presciptions per year for SSRIs under 18 written in the US. None of them, save for Prozac, has ever been approved for use under 18. It's strictly off label.

That's just SSRIs. Again, the use of much more powerful pyschotropics among childern is rising.

I hope stories like this reverse that trend.

-Richard

[HenrikOlsen]

Stories like this has no bearing on that debate, as this story is about what happens when people on their own increase the dose vastly beyond the one prescribed.

What you're talking about is what happens when people take the medicine in the dose actually prescribed, which is a different case completely, and one for which this story don't have a scientific relevance, though it may have an emotional, public opinion effect.

[Lord Jubjub]

Parents are at the bar for murder. I gotta think the psychiatrist has some fast talking to do to keep her license. She may end up in a criminal court herself.

Tiptoeing up to the politics ban, I would say the problem is not in the laws, but in the fact that there will always be people who slip past the laws until someone ends up hurt or dead.

[lpgeorge123]

Later that night, McGonnell told police, he heard someone struggling to breathe and found Rebecca gurgling as if something was stuck in her throat. McGonnell told police he wiped vomit from his niece’s face, then kicked in the door to her parents’ room and yelled at the Rileys to take Rebecca to the emergency room.

Instead, Carolyn Riley said, she gave her daughter a half-tablet of Clonidine.

That's really sad. Obviously there weren't following the doctor's orders. It amazes me when Rebecca was TWO years old they decided she had ADHD and bipolar disorder. Two year olds are suppose to be handfuls and full of energy. And wow, all the different drugs in her system when she died... Even when I get a cold or the flu I hold off on taking anything, even Ibuprofen.

[publius]

Well, a third drug was being prescribed as well, Seroquel, an anti-pyschotic. So this case does indeed involve a 4-yr old child being given an antipyschotic.

And to be clear, the Medical Examiner ruled it was the combination of the drugs that killed her, adding the level of clonidine alone was enough to be fatal.

http://ledger.southofboston.com/arti...ews/news01.txt

Yes, it is case of reckless overdosing by parents. But it also quite a legitimate matter to ask if we have reckless prescribing of powerful pyschotropic drugs here as well. Anyone alone is an issue in itself. But cocktails, combinations of them, are yet another level indeed for a child that young.

The pyschiatrist has "voluntarily" agreed to suspension while the medical board investigates.

-Richard

[Gillianren]

Incidentally, it was Clonidine that she overdosed on, not Depakote.

I know, but I have the most experience with Depakote. My best friend gained 35 pounds on it. It's not a drug for kids, even if she was overdosed on it. (Which is how I think of it; other people did it to her.) What's more, by the sound of it, if the Colonidine hadn't gotten her, something else would have. Like combining cold meds and Depakote.

[publius]

Prescribing information for depakote:

http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/depakote.pdf

Note the black box warning for liver toxicity, especially in young children (2 yrs old), warning about combination with other anticonvulsants.

Here is the prescribing information for Seroquel:

http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/seroquel.pdf

Note the initial black box warning, and note the warning on page 25 about pediatric patients: Safety and effectiveness have not been established. The benefit to risk must be carefully considered. Tardive dyskinesia is possible with seroquel (look that up).

Now, add clonidine to that cocktail. ETA: prescribed amount of Clonidine was apparently
0.35mg/day. 0.2 mg/day is "rarely" exceeded for children (of what age range, I don't know). 0.1mg is enough to start lowering the blood pressure of adult males.

I'm reading the timeline on this from various sources. The husband had been accused of *molesting* one of the older daughters, hitting one of the others. Social workers, school officials, etc, etc had all filed complaints and investigations. The dept of social services even requested an independent medical opinion of the girl's diagnoses (they were confirmed). After this, they requested a second opinion on the other children (also on medication). This time they agreed the medication profile should be altered.

All of the above was known by the prescribing pyschiatrist. She knew about the father and the family history, etc, etc.

-Richard

[novaderrik]

this is just the next step in the process of getting everyone hooked on something. the drug companies want to sell stuff, doctors want to make parents happy, and parents don't want to deal with the stress of being parents. lets throw in teachers that don't want to deal with energetic kids, too.
this is no different than all those people that take their kids into the ER every time they have a slight sniffle or skin their knees while being kids. kids die from that, too- or they grow up to be lousy parents that have kids that die from stupid stuff like this or grow up totally dependent on everything.

[Gillianren]

And again, it takes away from the perceived validity of real, careful diagnoses. It has taken me until, um, now to get someone prescribing meds for me to trust that I'm really bipolar, because there's this attitude (justified, granted) that all diagnoses are dubious because there's so many of them. Unjust but understandable, in short.

[NEOWatcher]

Clonodine for kids?
I've taken Clonodine in the past for Blood Pressure. Nasty stuff.

I can see how it can calm someone down. I had a hard time staying awake while taking it, and was chilled to the bone too.

Also; I was sternly warned on the dangers of skipping dosage. An abrupt change in dosage could cause major issues.

[Fazor]

Well...jeeze I can't really think of anything to say about this kind of "dope my kid so i don't have to deal with them" behavior...well, i have a lot to say but it'd probably earn me a ban. *bites tounge*

My girlfriend's step-sister's biological mother (love stories that start like that, no?) decided that since she (the mom) has diabetes, she was going to start the daughter (age 7 or 8) on her medication (since, "logically" she would probably get diabetes). The poor girl is also on all sorts of meds for "ADHD" just like in the story. Altho I suspect the real reason for putting her (without consulting a doctor first) on the diabetes meds was so that the ex-husband would have to pay more for child support to cover the cost of the meds. How low is that?

[Gillianren]

The ex-husband won't have to pay anything if the woman kills her daughter through untoward drug interactions, now, will he?

[TrAI]

Well...jeeze I can't really think of anything to say about this kind of "dope my kid so i don't have to deal with them" behavior...well, i have a lot to say but it'd probably earn me a ban. *bites tounge*

My girlfriend's step-sister's biological mother (love stories that start like that, no?) decided that since she (the mom) has diabetes, she was going to start the daughter (age 7 or 8) on her medication (since, "logically" she would probably get diabetes). The poor girl is also on all sorts of meds for "ADHD" just like in the story. Altho I suspect the real reason for putting her (without consulting a doctor first) on the diabetes meds was so that the ex-husband would have to pay more for child support to cover the cost of the meds. How low is that?

Thats terrible... Giving medications to someone like that could actually induce health problems... I hope this has been reported to the proper authorities, if not, it must be, the mother does not have the right to potentialy cause permanent damage to her daughter like that. I mean, what would happen if the girl ended up with brain damage or dies from hypoglycemia or some such just because the mother decided she hadn't been given enough?

Honestly, I do not understand people at all...

[publius]

Fazor,

Yeah. I'll point out what this woman is doing to her daughter is actually a crime, a felony in fact. One can also say that if I have prescription for something, and I give some to you, who freely takes it, that is the same felony. That's true. However, there's a big difference in effect, considering that child is not competenent to agree to it, indeed is being forced to take something.

That is something the law needs to know about. It is far from the level I'd consider "meddling".

-Richard

[Serenitude]

I just stumbled upon this thread. I wish there was something close I could smash and not regret

Seroquel and Depakote are both extremely powerful drugs for their purpose. The utmost care and monitering must be used for adults using these meds, and I can't for the life of me possibly think of a scenario in which either would be appropriate for children. Granted, I'm a nurse, not a doctor, so I'm not qualified to diagnose or prescribe, but I do have field experience. This is simply disgusting. Increased behavioral intervention/counseling, and milder drugs if needed, would have been a much better approach.

[publius]

I just stumbled upon this thread. I wish there was something close I could smash and not regret

Seroquel and Depakote are both extremely powerful drugs for their purpose. The utmost care and monitering must be used for adults using these meds, and I can't for the life of me possibly think of a scenario in which either would be appropriate for children. Granted, I'm a nurse, not a doctor, so I'm not qualified to diagnose or prescribe, but I do have field experience. This is simply disgusting. Increased behavioral intervention/counseling, and milder drugs if needed, would have been a much better approach.

If you want to do some more smashing, look up the statistics for the use of these poweful antipsychotic (neuroleptic) drugs in children under 10 years old. It's an alarming number and rising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroleptic

Read a bit about this class of drug, and consider giving that to a 4 yr. old. Note the "tardive" constellation of "side effects".

-Richard

[Serenitude]

Even in super controlled environments, in adults, these can be so dangerous that psychotropics should be reviewed at least every 30 days, and people supervising or living with them must be aware of the signs and symptoms of extra-pyramidal reactions. Using it as a fire and forget drug on a small child, I just don't have the words. I need to go outside and breathe for a bit.

[Serenitude]

Addendum - I wasn't aware that this was such a skyrocketing issue. Thanks for showing me that, Publius. I would have remained ignorant otherwise

[hhEb09'1]

I knew we'd eventually see crap like this, parents so freaking incompetent they'd pill their kids into mental oblivion for the sake of their inability to cope with anything disturbing their perfect little worlds. "ADHD" has become a frelling buzzword for "I'm too lazy to handle a rambunctious toddler".

We've seen crap like this for centuries, and there has always been people who abuse medications, either for themselves or for others. ADHD may be another convenient excuse for such people, but it is not a buzzword--it is a real condition, and there are real treatments.

Who do you think you are, Tom Cruise?

[publius]

Here is one story on it that popped up near the top:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11861986/

The number of prescriptions to children increased *5x* from '95 to '02. That comes out to about 40 in 1000 children. That is just flat shocking.

Either (as I would hold) a "drug crazy" trend afoot, or we've got something very wrong that is causing an alarming increase in the number of pyschotic children. If the latter, if 4 out every 100 children are really that crazy, then something is most definitely wrong, and it's time for a serious national effort to attack the problem.

-RIchard

[Fazor]

Fazor,

Yeah. I'll point out what this woman is doing to her daughter is actually a crime, a felony in fact. One can also say that if I have prescription for something, and I give some to you, who freely takes it, that is the same felony. That's true. However, there's a big difference in effect, considering that child is not competenent to agree to it, indeed is being forced to take something.

That is something the law needs to know about. It is far from the level I'd consider "meddling".

-Richard

Yeah, well the law seems to know about it, and the fact that the mother's been busted for dealing, and the fact that they're divorced because he came home and found her in bed with another woman...yet she still has custody. GO US FAMILY-COURT!

(granted it's not my family, just the g/f's step-family, so I can't even pretend to know the full story. as with anything, since i'm a third-party observer the side of the story I've heard is obviously biased so who knows exactly how accurate it is).

Problem is, how do you prove malice instead of ignorance? And now that she started giving the daughter the meds, the docs have said she can't take her off of them 'caus that will mess things up even more.

Anyway, away from that particular case. People in the city where I grew up are, by and large, the biggest group of hypocondriacs you've ever seen. they get a runny nose and they would stay home from work and keep the kids home from school and pump everyone so full of antibiotics and this and that it was rediculous. Well, put it this way, the city is 2 square miles + some farm land, and counting the grociery store pharmacies there's 6 total drugs stores.

I prescribe to the school of "If I'm sick, my body can take care of it itself". Partly because I hate doctor visits and have found most of them useless (you have this or that, and the only cure is rest. your bill comes to $600. thank you). But mostly I avoid meds because I firmly believe that you need to let your immune system build itself up as much as it can. But then again, I'll probably end up being one of those people that ends up dieing of a very treatable illness....oh well.

[publius]

Fazor,

Whooaaaa. Getting a bit in the too much information category. Not that it's not information I wouldn't lap up, and then deny I cared about it, but I had to say.

That does sound like 3rd party information about the diabetes drugs getting distorted. I just can't believe a doctor in his right mind would let some child who didn't need it stay on that kind of medication.

Anyway, your girlfriend may be a nice gal all the way around, but remember you marry the whole family, not just her.

-Richard

[Fazor]

Lol yeah. I almsot left that last bit out, but I felt it helped fill out the whole picture. I'm with you on the "it must be distorted" opinion though, because I myself cannot believe that if all the above was true that she would still have custody, let alone be free to roam outside of a penetentary holding cell :-P

But hey, just 'caus I'm a guy doesn't mean I'm not allowed to gossip once in a while! Oh by the way, have you seen Sheryl from accounting today? what was she thinking when she bought those shoes?! ...okay I'll stop i'm creeping myself out now.

[Doodler]

We've seen crap like this for centuries, and there has always been people who abuse medications, either for themselves or for others. ADHD may be another convenient excuse for such people, but it is not a buzzword--it is a real condition, and there are real treatments.

Who do you think you are, Tom Cruise?

I am well aware of that. However, what people THINK is ADHD versus what genuinely IS ADHD are no longer the same thing. Not by a damned long shot. The concept has outrun the reality, and these kids are dying from it.

[Fazor]

How much do you want to bet Einstein and Edison would be considered ADHD today and medicated? Scarey thought, no?