Anyone see "300"?

[Serenitude]

After Spartan scouts reported on the trail's discovery, Leonidas slowly began a phased retreat of his men, until only his personal bodyguard of around about 300 soldiers remained. They stayed behind to keep the Persians occupied while Sparta evacuated. The Persians then razed the empty town.

This just struck me. I should have seen this and commented on this earlier.

Leonidas only had 300 Spartans to begin with. He never, at any point, sent Spartans home from Thermopylae. He sent Greeks from other city-states. He arrived with 300 Spartans, 300 Spartans stayed, and 300 Spartans died.

They didn't stay to buy time for Sparta to evacuate. Sparta never evacuated. Leondias left approx. 9,000 hoplites to defend Sparta should it come to that. They would NEVER have left Sparta. They would have relished the chance to die in her defence. There is evidence the 9,000 who stayed were entirely unsatisfied at having been left behind. The idea of Sparta evacuating is absurd. They would have welcomed a battle like you and I would welcome a steak dinner. There is even evidence that the women were trained in a warrior cult much similar to the men, and there are documented accounts of Spartans princesses leading all-female phalanxes into battle.

Leonidas bought time for Athens to evacuate, not Sparta. Themistocles, after his stunning naval victory, headed to Athens and evacuated her citizens, moving them temporarily to Salamis. Xerxes reached Athens, and found her empty save a few preists and priestesses who stayed at the Parthenon. He burned an empty Athens to the ground, not Sparta.

Sorry I missed this initially. I highly recommend you do some more intensive research

[Disinfo Agent]

That's the kind of dumbing down that Hollywood always does.
(Sparta.... Athens... too many names to keep track of. Let's just scratch Athens.)

[Serenitude]

That's the kind of dumbing down that Hollywood always does.
(Sparta.... Athens... too many names to keep track of. Let's just scratch Athens.)

I haven't seen the movie yet (I can't until this weekend). Does the movie state that Sparta was evacuated, or is it (as I assumed) an error on the part of the OP?

[Disinfo Agent]

I don't know either. I assumed you did.

[Blob]

Sparta never evacuated. Leondias left approx. 9,000 hoplites to defend Sparta

Hum,
i seem to recall that the battle occurred just after A Spartan state Holyday.
The 300 were only the kings personal body guard.

[Disinfo Agent]

This sacrifice began the idea of a unified Greece, before the Spartans did this, Greece was still something of an abstract concept, so all of the talk about Greece as a high commitment may not be accurate, though I'll have to check.

Perhaps in a loose, cultural sense. Politically, I'm afraid Greece never did unite.

[Serenitude]

Hum,
i seem to recall that the battle occurred just after A Spartan state Holyday.
The 300 were only the kings personal body guard.

Sort of. They were also weeded out by Leonidas' insistence that only hoplites who had sired were allowed to come. He didn't want any familie's bloodline to die at Thermopylae. But you're correct - they wouldn't leave until after thier festival

[Serenitude]

I don't know either. I assumed you did.

Uh-oh

[Musashi]

I haven't seen the movie yet (I can't until this weekend). Does the movie state that Sparta was evacuated, or is it (as I assumed) an error on the part of the OP?

No, Sparta was not evacuated nor was there even talk of evacuation. I wonder if the OP meant that some portion of the Spartans at Thermopylae were "evacuated"?

The 300 were the Royal Bodyguard. The entire Greek force at Thermopylae was between 7,000 and 8,000 strong. The plan was to hold Thermopylae long enough that the Persian fleet would sail into the Euboean Channel where their numerical advantage would count for little.

The Spartans easily repulsed attacks on the Middle Gate two days in a row. Then Ephialtes led a force of Immortals (Persian Royal Bodyguard) to one of the side gates and routed the Phocians guarding it. The Spartans held the Middle Gate anyway but sent or allowed many of the Greek forces to retreat leaving the Spartan Royal Bodyguard, Some Thebans and some Thespians. They made their stand on a hill near the middle gate. The Spartans and maybe the Thespians were killed to a man, the Thebans asked for quarter (I do not know if they received it).

Once Thermopylae fell, the Greek Fleet disengaged and helped Evacuate Athens to Salamis (and Aegina and Troezen). Some few stayed in Athens where the Persian army destroyed them and pillaged Athens. Back in Pelloponnisia , the Spartans built fortifications across the Isthmus of Corinth in preparation for the further invasion of the Persian Army.

The next stage of the war took place in Salamis. The Athenian navy succeeded in breaking the Persian navy, which then retreated, first to Phaleron and then back to the Hellespont. The Persian army could only be supplied by the navy, so this signaled an end to the invasion (but not the war).

[angrynight]

Well by golly, I'm going to the library to look this stuff up now. I would love to believe wikipedia, but I know better.

Still, Barring all of the historical and political issues, I'm not sure it was a good movie. Lush, but kind of a thin plot. If you're gonna dramatize history, go all the way and make up some more interesting stuff. Also, I didn't really like the fight choreography.

[Gillianren]

If you're gonna dramatize history, go all the way and make up some more interesting stuff.

I disagree. If you're going to dramatize history, bloody well dramatize history. If you're going to make up a story, make up a story. Don't go halfway.

[Tog]

To clear up a few things about the the film, (should be spoiler free):

A messenger of Xerxes came to Sparta to inform them that Xerxes wanted tribute. He was refused, thus, Leonidis basically escalated the conflict. TO be fair, there was really not much he could have done differently. (In the film)

The priests who spoke for the Oracle told him that they would not endorse a war due to the coming August Festival, and that it would be a violation of Spartan Law to engage Xerxes without their approval.

Leonidis went for a "stroll" with a contingent of 300 personal bodyguards, all of whom had sons to carry on the family name.

There was not talk, or even sign, of Sparta being evacuated. There was no mention of Athens being evacuated.

I was also rather impressed with the fight choreography. Not as impressed as I was with Troy, but it was still very good.

[angrynight]

I disagree. If you're going to dramatize history, bloody well dramatize history. If you're going to make up a story, make up a story. Don't go halfway.

I kind of thought that was what I was saying. Why would you disagree?

[Makgraf]

I haven't seen the movie but from what I've heard it's very much like Sin City in that it's almost literal filming of the graphic novel.

There was a fascinating review by [neocon historian] Victor Davis Hanson:

Basically he argues that the very unreality of the film serves a greater realism:

Second, in an eerie way, the film captures the spirit of Greek fictive arts themselves. Snyder and Johnstad and Miller are Hellenic in this sense: red-figure vase painting especially idealized Greek hoplites through "heroic nudity". Such iconographic stylization meant sometimes that armor was not included in order to emphasize the male physique.

So too the 300 fight in the film bare-chested. In that sense, their oversized torsos resemble not only comic heroes, but something of the way that Greeks themselves saw their own warriors in pictures

(It's actually a really good review and it's pretty short)

Actually, from what I remember reading about the two cultures, the Athenians where about man-man love and the Spartans where the man-boy lovers

This reminds me of my favourite classroom exchange (in a greek history class). I think it's appropriate for the board...
Professor: Okay, any questions.
Student #1: So were they, like, gay?
Professor: Uh... well they weren't homosexual in the contemporary definition of the word. It was a relationship similar to what we'd call pederastry: between an older man and a younger boy.
Student #2: Yeah it said in the textbook that they'd have sex between the thighs.
Professor: Yes...
Student #2: How does that work?
Professor: Uh. ... The only answer I can give is someday... when you're married... you can try it with your husband.
Student #3: Is that why they used so much olive oil?
Professor: Moving on...

[TheOncomingStorm]

I

This reminds me of my favourite classroom exchange (in a greek history class). I think it's appropriate for the board...
Professor: Okay, any questions.
Student #1: So were they, like, gay?
Professor: Uh... well they weren't homosexual in the contemporary definition of the word. It was a relationship similar to what we'd call pederastry: between an older man and a younger boy.
Student #2: Yeah it said in the textbook that they'd have sex between the thighs.
Professor: Yes...
Student #2: How does that work?
Professor: Uh. ... The only answer I can give is someday... when you're married... you can try it with your husband.
Student #3: Is that why they used so much olive oil?
Professor: Moving on...

lol,anymore and that woiuld have posted on a different site.

[angrynight]

My goodness, I make a passing reference to Athenian "boy-lovers" and everyone fixates on it.

Freud was right.

[Makgraf]

lol,anymore and that woiuld have posted on a different site.

There was a bit involving, shall we say, pantomime that I left out.

[Gillianren]

My goodness, I make a passing reference to Athenian "boy-lovers" and everyone fixates on it.

Freud was right.

Bleah! No, no, he isn't!

I'm sorry; earlier, it seemed to me that you were advocating changing the history of things to make a better story, which I'm not. Are we on the same page after all?

[Whirlpool]

Everything you say here makes me more curious about this movie.

It still not showing here in my country , but I would want to watch as soon as its open here.

.

[Musashi]

Well by golly, I'm going to the library to look this stuff up now. I would love to believe wikipedia, but I know better.

Still, Barring all of the historical and political issues, I'm not sure it was a good movie. Lush, but kind of a thin plot. If you're gonna dramatize history, go all the way and make up some more interesting stuff. Also, I didn't really like the fight choreography.

My post comes from knowledge gleaned from books, not Wikipedia. Check out A History of Greece, N.G.L. Hammond and A History of The Ancient World, Chester G. Starr for a good start. I also leafed through some Osprey publications, specifically The Greek and Persian Wars 500-322 BC, The Spartan Army and The Persian Army 560-330 BC. For more direct sources, there are Herodotus and Xenophon.

[farmerjumperdon]

And when people count the Spartans, they tend to focus on the 300 soldiers and completely forget the 900 support personnel they brought along; catering, hairdressers, etc. who died with them.

Ah yes, the B ark. Everybody takes them for granted don't they?

[Blob]

Hum,
Xenophons `Hellenica` and his description of the Peloponnesian War, and Caesars `conquest of Gaul` are the two best classical books I've read. Yes, recommended reading.

BTW, i get all my knowledge from the Spartans, (Warning, contains loads of clips and info).

[farmerjumperdon]

Bleah! No, no, he isn't!

I'm sorry; earlier, it seemed to me that you were advocating changing the history of things to make a better story, which I'm not. Are we on the same page after all?

Well, he had to be right about something. Maybe he made great coffee, or something, . . . anything . . .

[Serenitude]

You may also wish to read Ctesius

About the wiki: As others have noted, it's a great place to start (usually my first stop on any topic), but it's ultra basic, and taken as only an initial source, is a great value, but as this topic shows, there is phalanx full of info still to be read after checking there

[Disinfo Agent]

A review by a historian (negative).

[Serenitude]

Any review from a historical perspective would be negative, I'd imagine.

Edit: I could probably come up with a list of at least 30 or so historical inaccuracies based solely on the trailers, and I haven't even seen the movie yet.

[sarongsong]

Anyone see "300"?

Apparently, someone in Iran did:

March 13, 2007
An Iranian official on Sunday lashed out at the Hollywood movie "300" for insulting the Persian civilization... People's Daily

The History Channel's 4-minute version:
A brief look at the Battle of Thermopylae
In their 'full' version, the narrator parenthetically mentioned that the Swiss have resisted invasion due to their control of their mountain passes.

[RalofTyr]

Did anyone else catch the hypocrisy in that while the Spartans fought for "Freedom", they enslaved an entire Greek peoples known as the "Helots"? It's like the Confederate states fighting for freedom.

Anyways, the Greeks weren't homosexuals. They took young boys and lovers and to mentor, but the young boys were expected to take a wife. They considered that part of their training in the art of love making.

I often wonder of crossovers. Could Lord Mordor's army from LotR: Return of the King defeat the Spartans? Ring wraiths and trolls would have made short work of them.

[Serenitude]

Did anyone else catch the hypocrisy in that while the Spartans fought for "Freedom", they enslaved an entire Greek peoples known as the "Helots"? It's like the Confederate states fighting for freedom.

Actually, the hyprocrisy goes farther than that. The Persians were one of the most benevolent Empires every. They didn't change local religiouns, customs, culture, or government when they conquered empires. They were downright benevolent compared to most governments.

Anyways, the Greeks weren't homosexuals. They took young boys and lovers and to mentor, but the young boys were expected to take a wife. They considered that part of their training in the art of love making.

You can't make that kind of general statement. Many (most?) Greeks were bisexual. Some were exclusively homosexual. Some were exclusively heterosexual. You're really quibbling in verbage, and differences in language.

I often wonder of crossovers. Could Lord Mordor's army from LotR: Return of the King defeat the Spartans? Ring wraiths and trolls would have made short work of them.

The Spartans would whoop them and still have time to cook dinner

[RalofTyr]

Actually, the hyprocrisy goes farther than that. The Persians were one of the most benevolent Empires every. They didn't change local religiouns, customs, culture, or government when they conquered empires. They were downright benevolent compared to most governments.

That's why they asked for tribute first. No need for war. As long as you paid your taxes, they left you alone.

You can't make that kind of general statement. Many (most?) Greeks were bisexual. Some were exclusively homosexual. Some were exclusively heterosexual. You're really quibbling in verbage, and differences in language.

No, no. I've writen many papers on the ancient greeks. They weren't divided in the sense Americans are divided today. I.E., if you have sex with a man, you're a homosexual, "Different". In the greek world, having sex with a man wasn't considered homosexuality, but one of the many loves and pleasures of their life. Some were exclusively heterosexual, mostly in part, because they couldn't find a male lover etc. etc. The ones that were homosexual, were considered weak and condemed always to be the "Women", well, at least in the eyes of the Spartans.

The Spartans would whoop them and still have time to cook dinner

As if...