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Thread: Current theory is no scientifically "better than" plasma cosmology.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Alfven used such standard scientific methods when testing his mathematical models with plasmas in a controlled laboratory setting. In this way he was able to verify that his mathematical models accurately represented the movements of nature and the behaviors of plasma in nature. He was able to verify that EM fields move plasma using standard scientific tests.
    Well, here's the problem: I can construct a model structure on my desktop using glue and popsicle sticks that is perfectly stable. I cannot, however, take those popsicle sticks down on Main Street and build a full-scale structure with them and hope for the same stability.

    This is the problem I see with moving from Alfven's "controlled laboratory experiments" to the much, much grander scale of galactic structures and galaxy clusters and superclusters. "Similarity transformations" capture some basic properties of plasmas, but not all plasma phenomena scale in this way.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    And what, specifically, are these criteria ("that would apply to any and all scientific discussions on any scientific topic")?
    http://www.sciserv.org/isef/primer/s...fic_method.asp
    http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy...AppendixE.html

    I'd say that these links provide a pretty good "primer" on the topic.

    Even more specifically, what - in some detail please - are your criteria for the specific fields of science called
    a) astrophysics?
    b) cosmology?
    My criteria are no different from the links above. In other words, cosmology/astrophysics should be treated no differently than any other area of science. It must work this way in the final analysis since we are already landing objects on distant planets and distant moons within our own solar system, we have collected material from comets, and the voyager probes continue their journey toward and through the solar sheath. To the distance we've traveled to date, all areas of "cosmology" are "testable" right now by standard methods of standard science.

    Among your details, please highlight how your criteria are "exactly the same" as those used in the field of science called condensed matter physics.When will you be answering the questions I posted in #9?
    I'm assuming no particularly "requirement" for "condensed" matter, but I personally will entertain that possibility. I'm not sure Alfv'en would be very "pleased" with my last statement from a "purely" scientific perspective, especially since his model requires nothing particularly "exotic" as it relates to black holes or heavy mass formations. I do accept the possibility that "MECOs" exist, which may result with objects with an intrinsic redshift. That "type" of object may in fact require some form of "exotic" matter located inside of a very large gravity well.

    I'll remain open minded, how's that?

    Here they are again, re-cast to align more closely with the part of your last post that I am quoting:

    1) AFAIK, no one has done a lab-experiment to produce and detect the gravitational waves predicted by General Relativity (if you know of any such experiment, please provide a reference).
    Yes, but I specifically requested that we not debate QM, GR or particle physics in this thread. If you wish to discuss the lack of GR waves predicted by GR, I would suggest you take up the topic with Jerry in another thread.

    Hulse and Taylor were awarded a Nobel, for work they did on a binary pulsar - they did not directly detect any of the waves predicted by GR. To what extent is their work consistent with your "[s]tandard scientific principles"? Please show how, in detail, this work meets your criteria for validity wrt 'scientific "evidence"'.
    It would seem to suggests that there is a problem with GR, a problem with the assumptions made by Hulse and Taylor, or it highlights one of the key discrepancies between GR and QM. I really have no idea at this point in time Nereid. For all I know that problem was directly related to their "assumption" that a "binary pulsar" was responsible for the observations in question, rather than attributing them to current flows as Alfven may have done. I remain "open" to a lot of possibilities for that particular "problem", but I must admit for the record that I trust the work of Einstein, and GR in general terms. I personally would tend to suspect that the problem was not related to a problem in GR.

    2) AFAIK, no one has done a lab-experiment to produce and detect the 'nebular' [OIII] line, nor any of several other such lines (if you know of any such experiment, please provide a reference). To what extent is the routine identification of this line, by astronomers, consistent with your "[s]tandard scientific principles"? Please show how, in detail, this routine identification meets your criteria for validity wrt 'scientific "evidence"'.
    I'm sure you are fishing for something specific here, and I'm really not trying to be evasive, but what exactly are you trying to suggest? Nebulas don't happen? As I suggested earlier, I'm willing to allow for some "latitude" as it relates to purely theoretical and mathematical models provided they are built upon standard laws of physics, and there is some hope of "testing" the idea.

    I don't profess to be an expert on all areas of astronomy by the way.

    3) AFAIK, no one has done a lab-experiment to produce a sample of the electron degenerate matter which Sirius B is considered to comprise (if you know of any such experiment, please provide a reference). To what extent are the conclusions concerning the nature of Sirius B (mass, radius, temperature, composition, etc), by astronomers, consistent with your "[s]tandard scientific principles"? Please show how, in detail, these conclusions meet your criteria for validity wrt 'scientific "evidence"'.
    Same answer as before. I've seen purely mathematical models for MECO's that would allow for very dense objects with intrinsic redshifts. That type of an object might actually help us to explain some of ARP's observations, so I remain open to the concept of degenerate matter. I don't "necessarily" believe that it exists, and I am likely to lean toward Alfven's explanations for some types of "formations" whenever possible.

    4) AFAIK, no one has done a lab-experiment to produce macroscopic samples of matter in the states which comprise matter at various depths in the Sun (if you know of any such experiment, please provide a reference). To what extent are the parameters in the standard solar model (temperature, composition, density, reaction rates, etc, by radius), used by astronomers, consistent with your "[s]tandard scientific principles"? Please show how, in detail, these parameters meet your criteria for validity wrt 'scientific "evidence"'.
    An electric plasma model of the universe would by definition include "electric suns" as well, hence my interest in the fusion processes that are occurring in the atmosphere of the sun.

    Heliosiesmology would be one valid scientific way of "probing" into the interior of the sun, although it should be noted that these types of observations are not done in "controlled" conditions or in an "active" manner. Rather the field of heliosiesmology is based on "passive" observations of sound waves as they travels through the interior. Still, it's a pretty cool use of scientific technology and it provides valuable insights into the interior.

    We might also be able to use some type of active radar to eventually peer into the interior of the sun as well. There are "active" and passive ways to probe our own solar system at this point in time so there is no particular exemption in astronomy on this particular topic.
    Last edited by ManInTheMirror; 2007-Jan-11 at 07:59 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    This is the problem I see with moving from Alfven's "controlled laboratory experiments" to the much, much grander scale of galactic structures and galaxy clusters and superclusters. "Similarity transformations" capture some basic properties of plasmas, but not all plasma phenomena scale in this way.
    Standard theory allows for gravity wells to be "scaled up" and you didn't complain. Since EM fields are 39 orders of magnitude more powerful than gravity, I'm not sure why you feel there is a problem "scaling up" his lab results with plasma and EM fields. What's the alternative?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Well, here's the problem: I can construct a model structure on my desktop using glue and popsicle sticks that is perfectly stable. I cannot, however, take those popsicle sticks down on Main Street and build a full-scale structure with them and hope for the same stability.

    This is the problem I see with moving from Alfven's "controlled laboratory experiments" to the much, much grander scale of galactic structures and galaxy clusters and superclusters. "Similarity transformations" capture some basic properties of plasmas, but not all plasma phenomena scale in this way.
    I wondered about this as well. I also wondered if, with all the observation that things can happen in a lab, has anyone observed that they do happen in space? The two are very different.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Standard theory allows for gravity wells to be "scaled up" and you didn't complain.
    Not sure what you're talking about here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    I'm not sure why you feel there is a problem "scaling up" his lab results with plasma and EM fields.
    As far as I know, it is an unfounded assumption that is not verified by observation in the galactic and super-galactic regions in which such "scaling up" is purported to occur. If some phenomenon is observed in an earth-bound laboratory or even within our solar system, one cannot automatically conclude that it will also necessarily occur on the much, much grander scale of galaxies and galaxy clusters without some further verification or confirming observations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    What's the alternative?
    The scientific method.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  6. #36
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    I will address MITM's post in several separate posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid
    And what, specifically, are these criteria ("that would apply to any and all scientific discussions on any scientific topic")?
    http://www.sciserv.org/isef/primer/s...fic_method.asp
    http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy...AppendixE.html

    I'd say that these links provide a pretty good "primer" on the topic.
    It seems that my question was not sufficiently clear, so let me try again.

    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Here's the history (my bold, links omitted):

    N: what are the criteria for determining which 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid' and which is not? Or perhaps the question concerns your criteria for 'supported by'?

    MITM: My criteria would be exactly the same criteria that would apply to any and all scientific discussions on any scientific topic. True scientific tests involve the study of something in controlled conditions, and active testing methods.

    N: And what, specifically, are these criteria ("that would apply to any and all scientific discussions on any scientific topic")?

    MITM: I'd say that these links provide a pretty good "primer" on the topic.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Now the re-stated question (in two parts):

    A) Please list, in approximate order of importance, the criteria which you actively use (or apply) when assessing whether 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid'. Note that both 'scientific "evidence"' and 'valid' are your own terms.

    B) Please summarise how you go about applying these criteria; for example, the steps you take and the order in which you take them.
    Even more specifically, what - in some detail please - are your criteria for the specific fields of science called
    a) astrophysics?
    b) cosmology?
    My criteria are no different from the links above. In other words, cosmology/astrophysics should be treated no differently than any other area of science. It must work this way in the final analysis since we are already landing objects on distant planets and distant moons within our own solar system, we have collected material from comets, and the voyager probes continue their journey toward and through the solar sheath. To the distance we've traveled to date, all areas of "cosmology" are "testable" right now by standard methods of standard science.

    [snip]
    (my bold)

    In both links, the role of experiment seems to be key. In your view, are experiments critical, in terms of judging whether 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid', in the fields of astrophysics and cosmology?

    Or, to state this another way, if there are no 'independent' 'properly performed experiments' (that's from the second link), for a particular conclusion or theory in astrophysics or cosmology, then that conclusion or theory is not, in your view 'valid'?

    Finally, for now, other than on the Earth, Moon, and Mars, where, in our solar system, have several independent experiments been properly performed (in your view)?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    I wondered about this as well. I also wondered if, with all the observation that things can happen in a lab, has anyone observed that they do happen in space? The two are very different.
    Well, we have documented Birkeland currents within the plasmas of our own solar system. The fact that solar wind made of ionized plasma tends to accelerate as it approaches the solar sheath would suggest that the solar sheath is negatively charged (relative to the solar wind particles) and that there are larger Birkeland currents affecting our solar system.

    In essences we know that these currents exist to the furthest distance we've been so far. I have no reason to suspect that these currents in plasma "terminate" at the solar sheath.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Not sure what you're talking about here.
    I mean that if I allow for GR to be used to hypothesize a gravity well the size of a MECO, then I must also allow plasma physics to be scaled accordingly. I cannot entertain one option without entertaining both options.

    As far as I know, it is an unfounded assumption that is not verified by observation in the galactic and super-galactic regions in which such "scaling up" is purported to occur. If some phenomenon is observed in an earth-bound laboratory or even within our solar system, one cannot automatically conclude that it will also necessarily occur on the much, much grander scale of galaxies and galaxy clusters without some further verification or confirming observations.
    Well Cougar, I'm more than happy to remain somewhat "skeptical" about how far we might be able to "scale things up", but to the solar sheath, the concept seems to "scale up" quite well. As I said earlier, I have no reason to suspect that Birkeland currents in plasma suddenly terminate at the solar sheath.

    The scientific method.
    I believe that you folks will have to describe that method and how it relates to what you feel is a "scientifically better" theory than plasma cosmology. As my thread states, I do not believe that the standard theory is scientifically superior to plasma cosmology. If you have some evidence that standard theory is superior to plasma cosmology, I'm certainly willing to hear your argument. So far all I've heard is some "skepticism" about scaling, and nothing that would qualify as a "scientific" alternative.

    My description of the scientific method has been spelled out. It places an emphasis on "testing", and thereby qualifying the idea to verify that the mathematical model jives with real life observations, in controlled conditions.

    I do not yet understand your definition of the "scientific method", nor do I understand what alternative you are suggesting is "better than" plasma cosmology.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Isn't all the Man-in-the-Mirror saying, in this case, is that the difference in galactic orbits between what is observed and what Newtonian mechanics predicts cannot be objectively called 'dark matter' unless and until some attribute can be identified other than that the results are not what is predicted by Newtonian mechanics? Isn't it fair to call this discrepancy Dark Matter with the understanding that we do not know whether this means dark matter exists, or the theory is wrong?
    What about these two?

    (1) Both theoretical arguments and computer simulations of structure formation predict that the density of dark matter should fall off with the cube of the distance to the center of a galaxy. And that agrees with the mass distribution of galaxies obtained by studying their rotation curves.

    F. Prada et al., Observing the dark matter density profile of isolated galaxies, Astrophys. J. 598 (2003) 260 (astro-ph/0301360)

    (2) Dark matter should interact neither with normal matter nor with itself (with the exception of gravity), i. e. be collisionless. Hence in galaxy collisions, it is expected that the dark matter travels right through, whereas the gas is left behind. And again, that matches determinations of the distributions of the non-luminous matter by gravitational lensing for the "bullet cluster".

    http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/08/21...matter-exists/

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If MinM can provide an alternative hypothesis, that explains the rotational observed without dark matter, isn't his alternative, at least based upon this one metric, more acceptable than a space holder?
    If he can provide an alternative hypothesis which can explain not only this, but also all the other evidence availabe, then surely is his alternative very acceptable. But I very much doubt he'll do that.

    Please note that "explain" means, as usual, "explain quantitatively". Making up qualitative stories for "explaining" something is easy - but not in any way convincing, as long as the explanation is not backed up by some solid data (numbers!).

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    A) Please list, in approximate order of importance, the criteria which you actively use (or apply) when assessing whether 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid'. Note that both 'scientific "evidence"' and 'valid' are your own terms.
    Let us be clear that these are not "my" (as in personal) terms. They are typical of all fields of science. From the second link:

    I. The scientific method has four steps

    1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

    2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

    3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

    4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

    If the experiments bear out the hypothesis it may come to be regarded as a theory or law of nature (more on the concepts of hypothesis, model, theory and law below). If the experiments do not bear out the hypothesis, it must be rejected or modified. What is key in the description of the scientific method just given is the predictive power (the ability to get more out of the theory than you put in; see Barrow, 1991) of the hypothesis or theory, as tested by experiment. It is often said in science that theories can never be proved, only disproved. There is always the possibility that a new observation or a new experiment will conflict with a long-standing theory.
    II. Testing hypotheses

    As just stated, experimental tests may lead either to the confirmation of the hypothesis, or to the ruling out of the hypothesis. The scientific method requires that an hypothesis be ruled out or modified if its predictions are clearly and repeatedly incompatible with experimental tests. Further, no matter how elegant a theory is, its predictions must agree with experimental results if we are to believe that it is a valid description of nature. In physics, as in every experimental science, "experiment is supreme" and experimental verification of hypothetical predictions is absolutely necessary. Experiments may test the theory directly (for example, the observation of a new particle) or may test for consequences derived from the theory using mathematics and logic (the rate of a radioactive decay process requiring the existence of the new particle). Note that the necessity of experiment also implies that a theory must be testable. Theories which cannot be tested, because, for instance, they have no observable ramifications (such as, a particle whose characteristics make it unobservable), do not qualify as scientific theories.

    If the predictions of a long-standing theory are found to be in disagreement with new experimental results, the theory may be discarded as a description of reality, but it may continue to be applicable within a limited range of measurable parameters. For example, the laws of classical mechanics (Newton's Laws) are valid only when the velocities of interest are much smaller than the speed of light (that is, in algebraic form, when v/c << 1). Since this is the domain of a large portion of human experience, the laws of classical mechanics are widely, usefully and correctly applied in a large range of technological and scientific problems. Yet in nature we observe a domain in which v/c is not small. The motions of objects in this domain, as well as motion in the "classical" domain, are accurately described through the equations of Einstein's theory of relativity. We believe, due to experimental tests, that relativistic theory provides a more general, and therefore more accurate, description of the principles governing our universe, than the earlier "classical" theory. Further, we find that the relativistic equations reduce to the classical equations in the limit v/c << 1. Similarly, classical physics is valid only at distances much larger than atomic scales (x >> 10-8 m). A description which is valid at all length scales is given by the equations of quantum mechanics.

    We are all familiar with theories which had to be discarded in the face of experimental evidence. In the field of astronomy, the earth-centered description of the planetary orbits was overthrown by the Copernican system, in which the sun was placed at the center of a series of concentric, circular planetary orbits. Later, this theory was modified, as measurements of the planets motions were found to be compatible with elliptical, not circular, orbits, and still later planetary motion was found to be derivable from Newton's laws.

    Error in experiments have several sources. First, there is error intrinsic to instruments of measurement. Because this type of error has equal probability of producing a measurement higher or lower numerically than the "true" value, it is called random error. Second, there is non-random or systematic error, due to factors which bias the result in one direction. No measurement, and therefore no experiment, can be perfectly precise. At the same time, in science we have standard ways of estimating and in some cases reducing errors. Thus it is important to determine the accuracy of a particular measurement and, when stating quantitative results, to quote the measurement error. A measurement without a quoted error is meaningless. The comparison between experiment and theory is made within the context of experimental errors. Scientists ask, how many standard deviations are the results from the theoretical prediction? Have all sources of systematic and random errors been properly estimated? This is discussed in more detail in the appendix on Error Analysis and in Statistics Lab 1.
    B) Please summarise how you go about applying these criteria; for example, the steps you take and the order in which you take them.(my bold)
    I go about applying them to Alven's work specifically. I see that he has experimented with his presumed "cause" in controlled laboratory conditions and has verified that his mathematical models correctly predict what he expects to observe. I note that we are now in a debate as to whether or not these basic principles can be "scaled up" correctly, but to this point in time, the physical model "works" as far as I know, at least to the solar sheath.

    In both links, the role of experiment seems to be key. In your view, are experiments critical, in terms of judging whether 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid', in the fields of astrophysics and cosmology?
    Experimentation and falsification are critical to virtually all areas of science. To the degree we can experiment with and test an idea, we must test the idea. We need to discover if the theory works in "real world" like it works on paper.

    Or, to state this another way, if there are no 'independent' 'properly performed experiments' (that's from the second link), for a particular conclusion or theory in astrophysics or cosmology, then that conclusion or theory is not, in your view 'valid'?
    Not necessarily, but an "extraordinary" claims will need to come with extraordinary supporting evidence of some sort albeit second hand if necessary. It should at least be "plausible" within the known laws of physics.

    Finally, for now, other than on the Earth, Moon, and Mars, where, in our solar system, have several independent experiments been properly performed (in your view)?
    We've confirmed the presence of Birkeland currents within the solar system using equipment based in space. We've "probed" (in a passive sense) the interior of the sun using sound waves. We've observed the solar wind accelerate as approaches the solar sheath, and we record solar wind in Voyager probes that extend our "knowledge" as far as we've been to date.

    Every physical object that we have sent into space that has returned valid and useful data from space has increased our scientific "knowledge" of space. Unless evidence to the contrary can be presented, I will consider all such experiments, from all such man made objects to have been properly performed.
    Last edited by ManInTheMirror; 2007-Jan-11 at 11:53 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid
    A) Please list, in approximate order of importance, the criteria which you actively use (or apply) when assessing whether 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid'. Note that both 'scientific "evidence"' and 'valid' are your own terms.
    Let us be clear that these are not "my" (as in personal) terms. They are typical of all fields of science. From the second link:

    [snip]
    (my bold)
    Please answer the question*
    B) Please summarise how you go about applying these criteria; for example, the steps you take and the order in which you take them.
    I go about applying them to Alven's work specifically. I see that he has experimented with his presumed "cause" in controlled laboratory conditions and has verified that his mathematical models correctly predict what he expects to observe. I note that we are now in a debate as to whether or not these basic principles can be "scaled up" correctly, but to this point in time, the physical model "works" as far as I know, at least to the solar sheath.
    Two questions:

    * Please summarise the parts of mainstream astrophysics that you have applied your criteria to, other than plasma physics.

    * What is the region of plasma parameter space over which Alfven conducted controlled laboratory experiments? In your answer, be specific about the parameters electric field, magnetic field, gravitational field, plasma temperature, plasma composition, and plasma density.
    In both links, the role of experiment seems to be key. In your view, are experiments critical, in terms of judging whether 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid', in the fields of astrophysics and cosmology?
    Experimentation and falsification are critical to virtually all areas of science. To the degree we can experiment with and test an idea, we must test the idea. We need to discover if the theory works in "real world" like it works on paper.
    (my bold)

    Please answer the question. Specifically, are experiments critical? (yes or no).

    If an idea cannot be "experiment[ed] with and test[ed]", must we conclude that all 'scientific "evidence"' concerning that idea is not 'valid'?
    Or, to state this another way, if there are no 'independent' 'properly performed experiments' (that's from the second link), for a particular conclusion or theory in astrophysics or cosmology, then that conclusion or theory is not, in your view 'valid'?
    Not necessarily, but an "extraordinary" claims will need to come with extraordinary supporting evidence of some sort albeit second hand if necessary. It should at least be "plausible" within the known laws of physics.
    (my bold)

    What are your criteria for assessing whether a claim is extraordinary?

    What are your criteria for assessing whether a claim (or is it supporting evidence? please clarify what "It" refers to) is plausible?

    Earlier you said (my bold): "My criteria would be exactly the same criteria that would apply to any and all scientific discussions on any scientific topic. True scientific tests involve the study of something in controlled conditions, and active testing methods."

    To what extent does your caveat ("To the degree we can experiment with and test an idea") create sets of criteria which differ between scientific topics?

    For example, ideas on high temperature conductivity can be tested by making different compounds and materials, and testing them (extensively) directly; ideas on the state of matter in the core of the Earth cannot be tested by creating 'Earth core' environments in the lab. So it would seem there is an inconsistency with 'exactly' and 'any and all'.
    Finally, for now, other than on the Earth, Moon, and Mars, where, in our solar system, have several independent experiments been properly performed (in your view)?
    We've confirmed the presence of Birkeland currents within the solar system using equipment based in space.
    Where (within the solar system)?

    What were the "several independent experiments, [...] properly performed" which confirmed their presence?
    We've "probed" (in a passive sense) the interior of the sun using sound waves.
    How, specifically, were these properly performed experiments done?
    We've observed the solar wind accelerate as approaches the solar sheath, and we record solar wind in Voyager probes that extend our "knowledge" as far as we've been to date.

    Every physical object that we have sent into space that has returned valid and useful data from space has increased our scientific "knowledge" of space. Unless evidence to the contrary can be presented, I will consider all such experiments, from all such man made objects to have been properly performed.
    (my bold)

    Earlier you wrote (my bold): "True scientific tests involve the study of something in controlled conditions, and active testing methods"

    What, in your view, is the relationship between observing and recording the solar wind and studying something in controlled conditions and active testing methods?

    What, in your view, is the relationship between returning valid and useful data from space and experiments?

    *Here is what you wrote earlier (my bold): "My criteria would be exactly the same criteria" My question concerns the criteria you actively use.

  12. #42

    Angry I quit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    I will agree with you that there is a *scientific* cause behind every effect, but my magic wand is not a "scientific explanation" of the "scientific cause" behind any "effect".
    I have decided to give the cause a name: dark energy. You might as well claim that it is a logical fallacy for me to name my dog Fido. This is a stupid discussion and I quit.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    (my bold)
    Please answer the question*
    I'm feeling a little frustrated at the fact that you keep asking me this question and I have answered this question now at least 3 different times in three different ways. Let me state this very plainly one more time:

    I am simply using the standard scientific method and applying that method to astronomy/cosmology. I have included links to demonstrate that I am using time honored standard scientific methods that apply to all areas of science. In no way have I deviated from the "standard" methods of science. If you do not agree to these time honored standards, it then becomes beholden on you to explain why that is so, and you must provide me with a "better" alternative.

    Two questions:

    * Please summarise the parts of mainstream astrophysics that you have applied your criteria to, other than plasma physics.
    I personally apply the standard scientific method to all ideas related to cosmology. I apply it to solar theory. I apply it to Birkeland currents in space. I apply it to planetary exploration. There is no part of astronomy that is somehow "immune" from the scientific method simply by virtue of distance.

    I will be happy to address your other questions, but I would like to put this particular issue to "bed". I am not deviating from the standard scientific methodologies in any way. I expect Alfven's theories to be scrutinized by the same exact standards as I would judge any idea from any area of "science". By definition, I will judge any "theory" you happen to put forth as an alternative by these same time honored standards.

    If you believe that there is a "better" standard please put that method on the table so that we can evaluate it, just as I have provided you with a clear outline of the "standard" scientific method.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Thompson View Post
    I have decided to give the cause a name: dark energy. You might as well claim that it is a logical fallacy for me to name my dog Fido. This is a stupid discussion and I quit.
    Come on Tim. "Dark energy" is not a scientific explanation for the cause of the movements of the physical universe anymore than my magic wand is a scientific explanation for the "cause" of these movements. Dark energy is a figment of your imagination, just like my magic wand and my invisible cheeseburgers are a figment of my imagination. These things do not exist in "reality". No other area of "science" requires "dark energy" in it's explanation of how anything works. Only astronomers trying to cling to a gravity centric model of space need that particular "cause" to explain anything that has been observed.

    You've essentially created a "pseudo-scientific" label that means absolutely nothing as it relates to any area of "science", and cannot be "tested" at all. It's certainly not a "scientific cause" of any observation anymore than my magic wand is a scientific cause of any particular observation simply by virtue of creating a fancy "label".

    The difference here between plasma cosmology and standard theory is simple, and profound. Since Alfven has identified a real (tested) scientific "cause" of plasma movement, his theory can actually be tested and his mathematical models can be put to the "test". Compare and contrast that now with DE, and my magic wand that utterly defy falsification and have never been demonstrated to exist in "reality" in any scientific sense.

    Plasma cosmology is based on standard scientific methods, whereas standard theory is a patch work of pseudo-science and unfalsifiable theories IMO.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid
    (my bold)
    Please answer the question*
    I'm feeling a little frustrated at the fact that you keep asking me this question and I have answered this question now at least 3 different times in three different ways. Let me state this very plainly one more time:

    I am simply using the standard scientific method and applying that method to astronomy/cosmology. I have included links to demonstrate that I am using time honored standard scientific methods that apply to all areas of science. In no way have I deviated from the "standard" methods of science. If you do not agree to these time honored standards, it then becomes beholden on you to explain why that is so, and you must provide me with a "better" alternative.

    [snip]
    And I am feeling frustrated too - it's a simple question (so it seems to me), but no matter how many times I ask it, in how many different ways, no answer is forthcoming.

    Let's examine the record, shall we?

    #32:
    Q: And what, specifically, are these criteria ("that would apply to any and all scientific discussions on any scientific topic")?
    A: "I'd say that these links provide a pretty good "primer" on the topic."

    Comment: is the material in the links a list (perhaps with explanations) of those criteria? And just what are the quotation marks around the word 'primer' supposed to convey?

    #40:
    Q: Please list, in approximate order of importance, the criteria which you actively use (or apply) when assessing whether 'scientific "evidence"' is 'valid'. Note that both 'scientific "evidence"' and 'valid' are your own terms.
    A: "Let us be clear that these are not "my" (as in personal) terms. They are typical of all fields of science."

    Comment: The question concerns the criteria which you use when actively assessing whatever it is you assess - what may, or may not, be "typical of all fields of science" is irrelevant to the question asked. But perhaps the disconnect is elsewhere? Perhaps the question should have been addressed to the use of quotation marks around the word 'evidence'? or a request for greater clarity on 'scientific'? or 'valid'? (Hint: not the last two, unless I am mistaken, valid and scientific were defined by MITM in terms of the criteria that my questions are aimed at).

    Which brings us the post quoted:
    Q: Please answer the question
    A: "I am simply using the standard scientific method and applying that method to astronomy/cosmology. I have included links to demonstrate that I am using time honored standard scientific methods that apply to all areas of science. In no way have I deviated from the "standard" methods of science."

    Comment: this is close (at last!) to an answer (my bold)

    But wait! We have another set of quotation marks ('standard' this time)!

    The one thing missing in all these (so-called) answers? A statement as simple as "I (consistently) use the methods (and only such methods) described in the material I have cited." No ifs, no buts, no quotation marks, ...

    So, perhaps these two questions will allow us to move on:

    1) Do you consistently use the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).

    2) Do you use only the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).

    I shall return to the rest of this, and others of your posts, later.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Well, we have documented Birkeland currents within the plasmas of our own solar system. The fact that solar wind made of ionized plasma tends to accelerate as it approaches the solar sheath would suggest that the solar sheath is negatively charged (relative to the solar wind particles) and that there are larger Birkeland currents affecting our solar system.
    If this is so, then why are the electrons in the solar wind also accelerated?

    Negatively charged relative to the solar wind particles. The solar wind particles are either ions (+) or electrons (-) so there is no such thing as "negatively charged relative to".

    As the solar wind is neutral, there is no current flowing away from the sun. The only current that is in the solar wind is in the current sheet, which separates the different polarities of the solar wind in the northern and the southern hemisphere, but these currents basically flow circular around the sun.
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  17. #47
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    Nereid, may I suggest that perhaps it's that a lot of people don't know how to use quotation marks properly?
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  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    The one thing missing in all these (so-called) answers? A statement as simple as "I (consistently) use the methods (and only such methods) described in the material I have cited." No ifs, no buts, no quotation marks, ...
    I've been intentionally not responding to this post today until I had a better handle on why you seem to believe that I have been in any way evasive on this issue. From my point of view, I have answered this question in some detail now, and your confusion has puzzled me frankly.

    I get the feeling from the terms "(consistently)" and "(only such methods)" in your sentence that you want me to commit to one method and commit to applying it consistently. From my point of view however, I have already done that repeatedly and consistently in every single response. I have fully committed myself to using the standard scientific methods, and I specifically quoted the steps involved from the links that I provided. The second link in particular fully describes and details the standard scientific method.

    Based on the term "caveats" in your questions, and some of your previous questions, I suspect that you would like to see me insert some wiggle room as it relates to the way I approach the topic of degenerate matter. I have already made it clear however that I will tend to lean toward Alfven's explanations, whenever and where ever possible. I don't need any wiggle room on that topic, or any other topic. In fact, I get the distinct impression that if I did attempt to give myself any wiggle room, you would immediately try to drive a Mack Truck full of "dark energy" right through that opening. I therefore won't go there with you. For purposes of this specific debate I have no need to go outside of the standard scientific method to demonstrate that standard theory is not scientifically superior to plasma cosmology.

    You have that need, but I do not have that need. I therefore commit (in full) to the standard scientific method as far as what can actually be considered "knowledge" by scientific standards.

    If you believe that there is a "better" brand of "scientific method", then the onus of responsibility falls to you to demonstrate that there is a "better" method. If you believe that some particular aspect of astronomy should be exempt from the standard method, you must make your case.

    So, perhaps these two questions will allow us to move on:

    1) Do you consistently use the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).
    Yes. I require no caveats as it relates to "scientific knowledge".

    2) Do you use only the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).
    Yes.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Nereid, may I suggest that perhaps it's that a lot of people don't know how to use quotation marks properly?
    I know I'm terrible with them. Bad habit I suppose. I'll try to minimize my use of them in the future.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
    As the solar wind is neutral, there is no current flowing away from the sun.
    Unless I am misreading it, the Wikipedia article on the solar wind suggests that by number the solar wind is 95% protons. So, that could hardly be considered "neutral".

    Am I missing something?

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    I know I'm terrible with them. Bad habit I suppose. I'll try to minimize my use of them in the future.
    The way you use them makes it look as though you're not really meaning the term you're using. As in, "primer" in quotation marks means, "I'm calling it a primer for the sake of argument, but it isn't really." This may be part of where you and Nereid are crossing wires, so to speak.

    And people say proper grammar isn't important!
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  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber Robot View Post
    Am I missing something?
    Ok, I think I answered my own question. I found another website that said it was 95% protons and electrons. Which means I guess that you can read the 95% ionized hydrogen in the Wikipedia article to mean the proton and its accompanying electron.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber Robot View Post
    Ok, I think I answered my own question. I found another website that said it was 95% protons and electrons. Which means I guess that you can read the 95% ionized hydrogen in the Wikipedia article to mean the proton and its accompanying electron.
    Yes, and you will note that the flow of these charged particles from the sun results in Birkeland currents that flow through our planet and other planets. You should also note that the shape of the solar sheath has the shape of a teardrop, not a perfect sphere, meaning that the solar sheath most likely experiences the same types of bow shock effects that our earth's magnetosphere experiences.
    Last edited by ManInTheMirror; 2007-Jan-13 at 12:51 AM. Reason: removed quotes. :)

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Come on Tim. "Dark energy" is not a scientific explanation for the cause of the movements of the physical universe anymore than my magic wand is a scientific explanation for the "cause" of these movements. Dark energy is a figment of your imagination, just like my magic wand and my invisible cheeseburgers are a figment of my imagination.
    No, as you have been told, oh, a dozen times or so, it is not a "scientific explanatation for the cause." It is a placeholder term for "effect discovered, cause currently not known." You keep calling it an explanation for the cause (which it isn't) rather than just the statement that there must be a cause, then calling that illogical, despite agreeing with the argument behind DE.

    So, just keep redefining the term (as I know you will) and make your irrelevant statement about the redefinition. It doesn't matter, since you agree with the concept called "DE."
    Last edited by Van Rijn; 2007-Jan-13 at 01:26 AM.

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  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    I've been intentionally not responding to this post today until I had a better handle on why you seem to believe that I have been in any way evasive on this issue. From my point of view, I have answered this question in some detail now, and your confusion has puzzled me frankly.
    There are also questions of mine you haven't answered. I would agree with Nereid that posting a link or quoting a primer on the scientific method hardly answers questions put to you. You use seemingly peculiar assumptions and interpretations that simply are not explained in those links.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid
    So, perhaps these two questions will allow us to move on:

    1) Do you consistently use the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).
    Yes. I require no caveats as it relates to "scientific knowledge".

    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid
    2) Do you use only the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).
    Yes.
    And this is a prime example of the problem, since you have not made obvious any conflict with the practice of astronomy astrophysics and cosmology and the method as you quoted it here. Until you are willing to explain yourself, this isn't going to go much further.

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    The way you use them makes it look as though you're not really meaning the term you're using. As in, "primer" in quotation marks means, "I'm calling it a primer for the sake of argument, but it isn't really." This may be part of where you and Nereid are crossing wires, so to speak.

    And people say proper grammar isn't important!
    Thanks Gillianren.

    I should have written more clearly ... quotation marks, to me, mean either a quotation, or an explicit signal (on the part of the writer) that the meaning they (= he or she) intends is special in some way ... a narrower definition, or a peculiar (including a highly idiosyncratic) one, or some such. Whenever I see quotation marks used in this second way*, I expect there was either a clarification earlier, or (more generally) an explanation later of what the writer intends the word (or phrase) to mean, and how it differs from the usual meaning(s).

    Another device which is often similar is the use of 'so-called', as in 'so-called theory' for example: the writer is conveying the idea that, in her mind, the theory is not a theory at all.

    *The first use is almost always immediately obvious.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid
    The one thing missing in all these (so-called) answers? A statement as simple as "I (consistently) use the methods (and only such methods) described in the material I have cited." No ifs, no buts, no quotation marks, ...
    I've been intentionally not responding to this post today until I had a better handle on why you seem to believe that I have been in any way evasive on this issue. From my point of view, I have answered this question in some detail now, and your confusion has puzzled me frankly.

    I get the feeling from the terms "(consistently)" and "(only such methods)" in your sentence that you want me to commit to one method and commit to applying it consistently. From my point of view however, I have already done that repeatedly and consistently in every single response. I have fully committed myself to using the standard scientific methods, and I specifically quoted the steps involved from the links that I provided. The second link in particular fully describes and details the standard scientific method.

    Based on the term "caveats" in your questions, and some of your previous questions, I suspect that you would like to see me insert some wiggle room as it relates to the way I approach the topic of degenerate matter. I have already made it clear however that I will tend to lean toward Alfven's explanations, whenever and where ever possible. I don't need any wiggle room on that topic, or any other topic. In fact, I get the distinct impression that if I did attempt to give myself any wiggle room, you would immediately try to drive a Mack Truck full of "dark energy" right through that opening. I therefore won't go there with you. For purposes of this specific debate I have no need to go outside of the standard scientific method to demonstrate that standard theory is not scientifically superior to plasma cosmology.

    You have that need, but I do not have that need. I therefore commit (in full) to the standard scientific method as far as what can actually be considered "knowledge" by scientific standards.

    If you believe that there is a "better" brand of "scientific method", then the onus of responsibility falls to you to demonstrate that there is a "better" method. If you believe that some particular aspect of astronomy should be exempt from the standard method, you must make your case.
    So, perhaps these two questions will allow us to move on:

    1) Do you consistently use the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).
    Yes. I require no caveats as it relates to "scientific knowledge".
    2) Do you use only the methods described in those two links when you actively assess work done in astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology? (answer yes or no, then any caveats you wish to enter).
    Yes.
    Thanks for the clarifications.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
    [snip]
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid
    Two questions:

    * Please summarise the parts of mainstream astrophysics that you have applied your criteria to, other than plasma physics.
    I personally apply the standard scientific method to all ideas related to cosmology. I apply it to solar theory. I apply it to Birkeland currents in space. I apply it to planetary exploration. There is no part of astronomy that is somehow "immune" from the scientific method simply by virtue of distance.

    I will be happy to address your other questions, but I would like to put this particular issue to "bed". I am not deviating from the standard scientific methodologies in any way. I expect Alfven's theories to be scrutinized by the same exact standards as I would judge any idea from any area of "science". By definition, I will judge any "theory" you happen to put forth as an alternative by these same time honored standards.

    If you believe that there is a "better" standard please put that method on the table so that we can evaluate it, just as I have provided you with a clear outline of the "standard" scientific method.
    (my bold)

    How do "Birkeland currents in space" relate to plasma physics?

    What do you intend to convey by the words I have bolded (in quotation marks)?

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    (my bold)

    How do "Birkeland currents in space" relate to plasma physics?
    http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/do...att86TPS-I.pdf

    This link will provide an overview of how lab plasmas and cosmic plasmas are related.

    What do you intend to convey by the words I have bolded (in quotation marks)?
    My new years resolution is to give up quotes completely. I think I've been trying to use them to emphasize key ideas, but that's not what they are supposed to used for. I think it is best if I give up that particular habit.

    In that case I was trying to understand what you feel would be scientifically superior to Alfven's theories and I'm trying to understand exactly what criteria you are using.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    No, as you have been told, oh, a dozen times or so, it is not a "scientific explanatation for the cause." It is a placeholder term for "effect discovered, cause currently not known."
    And I have explained to you that if that is all it is, then it is a scientifically bankrupt and meaningless term.

    You keep calling it an explanation for the cause (which it isn't) rather than just the statement that there must be a cause, then calling that illogical, despite agreeing with the argument behind DE.
    Sure Van, just like you agreed that my magic wand was responsible for the observations.

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