Chinese Moon Bases?

[AstroMike]

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/chirbase.htm

[Silas]

Aww! That's cute!

Hey, frankly, I hope they make it!
*Any* human presence in space is better than none, and, besides, it would spur us back into the competition!

Silas

[Simon]

My thoughts exactly, more power to them!

[moonbuggy]

I'm just afraid that the HBs will use the pictures on that site to prove how easy it is to fake pictures of men on the moon. But wait... see the flag? It isn't rippling in the breeze so maybe they actually have been there already! ;^)

Peter

[Doodler]

Call me crazy, but supporting China in its quest for the moon is not something I'm up for. To see a ruthless, inhuman government like theirs up there scares the bejeesus out of me. The idea of "any human presence is better than none at all" is dangerously naive. I look at them the way America used to look at the Soviets, they are the enemy. If we let them have unmonitored access to the moon, they will claim it as their own and defend it as such. Doubt me? Ask a Tibetan sometime... I agree on the second point though, let's just hope this does get us interested in getting back there, ASAP. Sorry to be the one to drag politics into this, but then, politics put us there in the first place.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Doodler on 2002-09-19 14:22 ]</font>

[Jigsaw]

Er, read the fine print, Doodler.

These seemed to be the dreams of academics rather than a definite funded programme...

< snip >

There was no funding for lunar projects in the ten-year space plan approved in 2001. By July 2001 a Chinese aerospace magazine indicated that Chinese scientists had drafted a much more modest four-phase long term plan.

Phase 1, by 2005: Lunar flyby or orbiting satellite missions, perhaps using the DFH-3 bus.

Phase 2, by 2010: unmanned soft-landing missions.

Phase 3, by 2020: Robotic exploration using surface rovers

Phase 4, by 2030: Lunar sample return missions.

Only after 2030 would manned flights and construction of a lunar base begin.

Also, look at the kind of thing that's going on.

May 20. Go.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/1997747.stm

Monday, 20 May, 2002, 16:00 GMT 17:00 UK
China sets date for the Moon

China says it is planning to establish a base on the Moon to exploit its mineral resources.

Beijing has not yet put a human into space, but scientists say they expect to do so within three years and they have outlined an ambitious programme for the future.

A chief scientist with China's Moon exploration programme, Ouyang Ziyuan, said that the country was planning to launch its first mission to the Moon in 2010.

He reportedly told the Beijing Morning Post: "Our long-term goal is to set up a base on the Moon and mine its riches for the benefit of humanity."

May 21. No go.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/2000506.stm

Tuesday, 21 May, 2002, 14:48 GMT 15:48 UK
China denies manned Moon mission plans

China will not be launching a manned mission to the Moon in the foreseeable future, according to Ouyang Ziyuan, chief scientist of China's Moon exploration programme.
In an exclusive interview with BBC News Online he said he wanted to clarify news reports in the Chinese media that Beijing would be putting a man on the Moon by 2010 with the establishment of a Moonbase soon afterwards.

"We will explore the Moon certainly," he said from his office in Beijing, "but with unmanned spacecraft."

It's all about the Chinese space program's internal politics--Political Animal #1, for reasons of his own, makes a statement saying Yes, absolutely, China's going to the moon, and the next day, Political Animal #2, for reasons of his own, makes a statement saying, basically, P.A. #1 is a total idiot.

I wouldn't want to be a politician in China for, literally, all the tea they got over there.

So I wouldn't go home and start cleanin' your light sabers gettin' ready for the First Interplanetary War just yet... [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

originally posted by Doodler:
Call me crazy, but supporting China in its quest for the moon is not something I'm up for. To see a ruthless, inhuman government like theirs up there scares the bejeesus out of me. The idea of "any human presence is better than none at all" is dangerously naive. I look at them the way America used to look at the Soviets, they are the enemy. If we let them have unmonitored access to the moon, they will claim it as their own and defend it as such. Doubt me? Ask a Tibetan sometime...

Here at the BABB we like to think that Mankind Is One, that we are all kindred spirits in pursuit of scientific knowledge and understanding. Hence, statements like "China is the enemy" don't go over very well here. If you want to make statements like that, please go do it somewhere else. Here, I can assure you that we're all actively rooting for the Chinese to get as many rockets to the moon as they can, because to us, the important thing is that "Humanity" do this thing, not that "American Humans" do it, or that "Chinese Humans" not do it.

I bet we'd even root for Saddam Hussein, if he had a space program. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Whaddaya think, guys? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jigsaw on 2002-09-19 15:01 ]</font>

[DaveC]

On 2002-09-19 14:50, Jigsaw wrote:
I bet we'd even root for Saddam Hussein, if he had a space program. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Whaddaya think, guys? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Well, maybe not Saddam Hussein! Based on what he's shown the world so far, he'd be much more likely to misuse space exploration capacity than China.

And I do agree that scientific advancement by humans, regardless of nationality is a good thing. It's the "us guys vs you guys" attitude that results in science being perverted for war. On the other hand, how advanced would our science be if it weren't for war and military expenditures.

China is the enemy???????? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[Jigsaw]

Some enemy. I just went down to Kroger and bought a huge box of frozen pollack for 99 cents a pound, "Product of China".

We are definitely all friends now. Can't declare war on them 'cause we gotta have that cheap frozen fish. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[DaveC]

On 2002-09-19 15:18, Jigsaw wrote:
Some enemy. I just went down to Kroger and bought a huge box of frozen pollack for 99 cents a pound, "Product of China".

We are definitely all friends now. Can't declare war on them 'cause we gotta have that cheap frozen fish. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I'm in Canada - we've been "friends" with China for a long time (to the chagrin of a succession of U.S. administrations). I've been eating that cheap Chinese pollack since I was a kid. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Jigsaw]

Well, huh. I didn't know that--here it has always come in small 1-pound frozen rectangular blocks, usually about $2.50 to $3.00 a pound, "Product of Alaska". So either this is a big product switch for Kroger, or it was one heckuva loss leader.


Sorry, we're supposed to be talking about astronomy, aren't we? Not groceries. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Okay, well, carry on--"The Chinese space program..."

[Doodler]

I will concede that my statement about China as an enemy may be pushing the wrong button (no Cold War pun intended), please forgive my tone. But the nature of the Politcal Animal, as you call it, cannot be ignored. We've seen here in the US how politics affects space science, from the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo race against to the pressure put on by the Reagan administration that was ultimately responsible for the launch of Challenger on her last flight, to the budget butchery inflicted on the ISS. Politics and space programs are bedfellows of inconvenience. I meant my post as a commentary on the politics that I believe will guide the Chinese space program. If I offended I apologize.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Doodler on 2002-09-19 15:48 ]</font>

[DaveC]

No apology necessary, Doodler. I'm not a big fan of totalinarianism, but I do look at China with a certain degree of admiration for how far it has come in the past 50 years. And yes, they had Tiananmen (America had Kent State) and human rights aren't viewed the same way there as in the west. But the country has an amazing history (including the invention of rocketry) and has been a reliable and steady trading partner with Canada for forty years. I don't see an enemy when I look at China - I see a developing country struggling to take its rightful place in the world economy, and to throw off the last shackles of colonialism and, when the economics are right, communism.

More power to 'em if they develop a space program. In a world where American military spending becomes large enough to force a "Pax Americana" on the world, maybe we should be delighted that other nations will have the will and the resources to undertake space exploration that the US can no longer afford on its own.

[Launch window]

Aww! That's cute!

Hey, frankly, I hope they make it!
*Any* human presence in space is better than none, and, besides, it would spur us back into the competition!

Silas

China will begin an effort to send astronauts to the moon in about 2017, with a landing some time after that, official media said Wednesday, citing a senior official of the lunar probe program.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/...sc/china_space

The moon landing would cap a lunar program begun in 2004 with the launch of a probe. In October, China launched its second manned space flight, a successful five-day mission.

The Xinhua News Agency quoted Ouyang Ziyuan, the lunar program's chief scientist, as saying unmanned lunar probes will be ramped up in three stages until about 2017, when the manned program will begin.
The report did not indicate when a manned lunar landing might be accomplished.
According to Ouyang and other Chinese space officials, an effort to launch lunar orbiting satellites will be supplanted in 2007 by a program aimed at accomplishing an unmanned lunar landing.
A program to return unmanned space vehicles from the moon will begin in 2012 and last for five years, until the manned program gets underway, Xinhua quoted the officials as saying.

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=3860
China plans Moon exploration - more news

[Monique]

All your bases are belong to us

[wayneee]

Well you need to crawl before you run. I will take them seriously after they successfully do something. Talk and pretty pictures are one thing.

[X-COM]

I hope they do it. Manned space exploration has slowed to a crawl due to lack of competiton. And without manned explorations we are nothing but a bunch of losers locked in at the surface of a doomed planet. It is time to move out to new frontiers, not just sit here on our fat asses waiting for something that wont happen as long as we do nothing but dream. I therefore no longer consider low earth orbit as "space", it is "the outer atmosphere" (there even some air resistance to slow down orbiting satelittes causeing them to loose altitude). The point of this is that I do no longer consider people that merely goes to low earth orbit as "astronauts", you need to get further out for that. You need to reach the real space. Space is what you are traveling in when the earth are apperantly shrinking behind you. The chineese are temporarily excluded from this judgement because they still show ambiton, their space program has simply not had the time to develop further. In time it will.

By the way, I don't consider and object to be a spaceship unless it is manned, so unmanned probes that are sent out into the solar system should not be called that. A "spacecraft" may be unmanned but should be of an significant size so don't use this term for something that could fit on a pickup truck. A spacecraft, can load a pickup truck into it's cargo bay however.

I hope the chineese do shame the rest of the world for their lazyness, we do need that kick in the butt, badly. So put away that donut and start building those REAL spaceships and let get going, we have an whole solar system to explore and and plenty of space beyond that for our decendants.

[AGN Fuel]

Well you need to crawl before you run. I will take them seriously after they successfully do something. Talk and pretty pictures are one thing.

Well, respect where due - the Chinese now have two successful manned spaceflights to their credit. A long way shy of a lunar mission, I admit, but it's certainly a start.

[Monique]

Call me crazy, but supporting China in its quest for the moon is not something I'm up for. To see a ruthless, inhuman government like theirs up there scares the bejeesus out of me. The idea of "any human presence is better than none at all" is dangerously naive. I look at them the way America used to look at the Soviets, they are the enemy. If we let them have unmonitored access to the moon, they will claim it as their own and defend it as such. Doubt me? Ask a Tibetan sometime... I agree on the second point though, let's just hope this does get us interested in getting back there, ASAP. Sorry to be the one to drag politics into this, but then, politics put us there in the first place.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Doodler on 2002-09-19 14:22 ]</font>

Perhaps nations with "human governments" make time to quest for moon. If do not like, compete for goal.

[PhantomWolf]

well they have 11 years and 2 manned missions. The US had 9 years and 0 manned missions.

[Lianachan]

I fully support the Chinese in this, and good for them for deciding to do it in the first place.

I just hope they don't spot the secret Scottish bases on the far side.

[R.A.F.]

The US had 9 years and 0 manned missions.

Shouldn't that be 6 years? The Apollo program ended in 1972. The Apollo/Soyuz test project was in 1975, and the first Shuttle was launched in 1981.

[PhantomWolf]

No, 9 years. Apollo was announced in July, 1960, and Apollo 11 landed in July, 1969. That's nine years. Their first Manned Space Flight was May 5th, 1961, so at the time of the Apollo announcement they still had a total of zero manned space flights.

China has had two space manned spaceflights and isn't planning to land for at least 11 years, so the US landed on the moon in a shorter time period with less manned flights acomplished than the Chinese currently have and plan for.

[R.A.F.]

OK...I see what you are mean now. I had a "feeling" I was misunderstanding you...

[Heid the Ba']

Go PRC! I don't care who does it as long as someone does. I don't necessarily distrust their government any more than my own, or anyone else's.

[Eric Vaxxine]

I wonder if the new space colonies will carry religion with them? What religion are the Chinese?

[Lianachan]

I wonder if the new space colonies will carry religion with them? What religion are the Chinese?

Pretty much all major religions are there to some extent, plus others.

Religion in China

[Jakenorrish]

Good for the Chinese.

One of my favourite memories of the space race was how the politicians were at loggerheads, but the scientists by comparison co-operated when necessary. I hope the Americans and Chinese can co-operate further as if (shock horror!) they pooled their resources, the moon will have bases on it a lot sooner. It will be for the good of science and ultimately the world if this dream could be realised.

[Eric Vaxxine]

Thanks for the link Lianachan.
'Many Chinese belief systems have concepts of a sacred and sometimes spiritual world yet do not invoke a concept of God.'

They have been very innovative in the past. I expect the Chinese will be a powerful space race.

[Lianachan]

Thanks for the link Lianachan.
'Many Chinese belief systems have concepts of a sacred and sometimes spiritual world yet do not invoke a concept of God.'

They have been very innovative in the past. I expect the Chinese will be a powerful space race.

You're welcome. Yes, I also expect the Chinese will do well in space. After centuries of exclusion, they're an emerging military and (especially) economic superpower.

[Eric Vaxxine]

If China and Russia were to hook up and share resources....phew.

They could invent a new working language, Rinese or Chussian.