Question for Gillianren

[clop]

Hi Gillianren,

I've seen in other threads that you're interested, and qualified, in discussions about grammar and spelling, and I have a question to put to you.

I've just watched an episode of Star Trek TNG where the non-existent word "re-occur" was used twice, by two different actors, instead of the correct "recur".

I've also noticed a ubiquitous tendency for people to use the reflexive pronouns "myself" and "yourself", in place of "me" and "you", in an attempt to sound proper or civil. They might say, "if you have any problems please don't hesitate to contact myself," or "I'm an engineer, how about yourself?" Technically, reflexive pronouns can only be used in a sentence with a pronoun, like "I dressed myself," or "you can find it yourself". There is no context where "yourself" can be used to mean "you".

But it seems that these errors are being adopted throughout the major English-speaking countries as proper English. At what point, in your opinion, does the incorrect use of a word become recognised as formally correct, and no longer a mistake?

clop

[Ronald Brak]

I've just watched an episode of Star Trek TNG where the non-existent word "re-occur" was used twice, by two different actors, instead of the correct "recur".

ME: If the problem reoccurs then let me know.

NOT ME: Reoccur is not a word.

ME: Did you understand what I meant when I used it?

NOT ME: Of course.

ME: Then why isn't it a word?

NOT ME: It's not in the dictionary.

ME: Ah. So English had no words before Dr Johnson created the first dictionary? What a clever fellow he was to create them out of nothing.

[Lurker]

ME: If the problem reoccurs then let me know.

NOT ME: Reoccur is not a word.

ME: Did you understand what I meant when I used it?

NOT ME: Of course.

ME: Then why isn't it a word?

NOT ME: It's not in the dictionary.

ME: Ah. So English had no words before Dr Johnson created the first dictionary? What a clever fellow he was to create them out of nothing.

Well it starts out with small things like using re-occur instead of recur...

but gods above and below man!! If its not stopped it ends up in GLP!!!

[clop]

Look I'm not complaining about people using words that don't exist. I'm just wondering when the misuse of a word is so widespread that it becomes officially correct. Who would make such a decision? The fact that television scriptwriters are using "re-occur" makes me think it's already become recognised as correct English.

clop

[Ronald Brak]

Look I'm not complaining about people using words that don't exist. I'm just wondering when the misuse of a word is so widespread that it becomes officially correct. Who would make such a decision? The fact that television scriptwriters are using "re-occur" makes me think it's already become recognised as correct English.

In English no one makes the decision. People may decide that a word is "officially" part of the English language once it starts appearing in dictionaries but there is no official body that decides. We decide. People in general. So if you want reoccur to be accepted use it often. If you think it's an abomination use recur.

[grant hutchison]

"Re-occur" (to occur again) is attested by the Oxford English Dictionary as far back as 1867, so I think we should probably have relaxed into that one by now ...

I always thought the "myself" thing was a very self-effacing British phenomenon, because Brits feel it's too assertive to use the word "me". But I'm thrilled if such a bizarre circumlocution is being adopted worldwide.

Grant Hutchison

[Ken G]

I have used that word myself.

[grant hutchison]

Cripes.
The use of "myself" instead of "me" (as the object of a verb or governed by a preposition) is described by the OED as archaic, and is first attested in (c)1205.
So we Brits aren't being coy, we're being archaic. In which case I'm all for it!

Grant Hutchison

PS: Ken's usage, linked to the subject I, goes back to the year 853. So he wins.

[clop]

Well the word "re-occur" does not appear in my huge Collins English Dictionary and it doesn't come up at www.dictionary.com either.

And I quote from my huge Collins English Dictionary:

"The use of myself for I or me is often the result of an attempt to be elegant or correct. However, careful users of English only employ myself when it follows I or me in the same clause: I cut myself, but he gave it to me (not myself). The same is true of the other reflexives."

Grant I think this use of yourself as a less assertive, supposedly more respectful form of you mirrors the French and German uses of tu, vous, du and sie.

clop

[Gillianren]

As has been mentioned, there's no defining body, so to speak. The Oxford English Dictionary is the English nerds' standard, though of course, it's not foolproof by any stretch--for a start, citations can by definition only be the first found recorded usage of a word.

When you have a majority of English nerds on your side, you probably have correct usage. Probably. And, yes, we know that there's archaic terms a-plenty that are no longer considered correct. Frankly, we know more about it than non-English nerds. ("A norange," anyone?) However, we do recognize that consensus is, on this, important to comprehension.

We do all know that English is a changing language--all languages are, no matter how much the French may be officially fighting it. However, there is a reason we try to hold the positions we do for as long as we can. If we didn't, how would we understand each other? How would you teach English as a second language if it wasn't clear as a first one?

[Lurker]

<snip>

We do all know that English is a changing language--all languages are, no matter how much the French may be officially fighting it. However, there is a reason we try to hold the positions we do for as long as we can. If we didn't, how would we understand each other? How would you teach English as a second language if it wasn't clear as a first one?

I would explain to my students that English was difficult to teach because it is continually being impacted by change...

[Gillianren]

I would explain to my students that English was difficult to teach because it is continually being impacted by change...

Without at least some rules, you couldn't teach it at all.

[grant hutchison]

Well the word "re-occur" does not appear in my huge Collins English Dictionary and it doesn't come up at www.dictionary.com either.

Most dictionary editors make regular decisions about ditching rare words in order to maintain the size of their dictionaries: so new words to some extent edge out old ones. But the dear old OED just keeps on getting bigger (it fills a considerable span of shelf-space in multiple volumes), and it's always interesting to see how many usages we think of as being new errors turn out to have been around for centuries.

The Oxford English Dictionary is the English nerds' standard ...

Oi. Who are you calling a nerd?

Grant Hutchison

[Maksutov]

This is scary. The next thing you know, we'll start hearing people using words such as "re-entry" and other related terms!

[Tog]

I did my basic training in Alabama. It was the first time I had ever spent more than a week west of Utah. In the mapreading class, they used the word "orientate" all the time. "First you need to orientate the map to the ground". I swear I thought it had to be a Southern thing, like "y'all". I had never come across this word ever. When I finally found a dictionary... it was in there. It was a real word. I can't see myself ever becoming "disorientated" enough to use it, (other than mockingly) but I would have bet vast sums of money that it was not a real word.

[MG1962A]

Look I'm not complaining about people using words that don't exist. I'm just wondering when the misuse of a word is so widespread that it becomes officially correct. Who would make such a decision? The fact that television scriptwriters are using "re-occur" makes me think it's already become recognised as correct English.

Unfortunately it comes under usage. Thats why there are varients between most of the English speaking languages as usage and spelling.

And Australia is the worst for it. Our nations capital is Canberra... Pronounced Can-ber-ra

But the majority of Australians say Can-bra

[MG1962A]

Look I'm not complaining about people using words that don't exist. I'm just wondering when the misuse of a word is so widespread that it becomes officially correct. Who would make such a decision? The fact that television scriptwriters are using "re-occur" makes me think it's already become recognised as correct English.

Unfortunately it comes under usage. Thats why there are varients between most of the English speaking languages as usage and spelling.

And Australia is the worst for it. Our nations capital is Canberra... Pronounced Can-ber-ra

But the majority of Australians say Can-bra

[MG1962A]

Look I'm not complaining about people using words that don't exist. I'm just wondering when the misuse of a word is so widespread that it becomes officially correct. Who would make such a decision? The fact that television scriptwriters are using "re-occur" makes me think it's already become recognised as correct English.

Unfortunately it comes under usage. Thats why there are varients between most of the English speaking languages as usage and spelling.

And Australia is the worst for it. Our nations capital is Canberra... Pronounced Can-ber-ra

But the majority of Australians say Can-bra

[grant hutchison]

In the mapreading class, they used the word "orientate" all the time. "First you need to orientate the map to the ground".

It's linked to the Orient (the east), and oriental things (which come from the east). If you're orientated, in map-reading terms, you know where east is (and therefore where all the other directions are, too). The story goes that old maps had east at the top, but I don't know to what extent that was ever as standard as north-at-the-top is now.
Nowadays, since we orientate ourselves by the north with a compass, we should maybe say that we septentrionate instead. (There's a word for clop to test his dictionary with. )

Grant Hutchison

[Tog]

It's linked to the Orient (the east), and oriental things (which come from the east). If you're orientated, in map-reading terms, you know where east is (and therefore where all the other directions are, too).

I had always heard it used as "orient" You orient a map. You become disoriented. You oreinet yourself to new software. I later learned both were correct, and interchangable.

For Pronuncition, Utah has some classics. There is a radio station here that ran a contest for a long time where you convert a common Utah phrase into proper English.

One of out standards is swapping O and A. Gourd is the normal way to say Guard. Ignernt (ignorant) means rude here. We have a town down south called Hurricane, pronounced HER-i-kun.

[peter eldergill]

In education, we make up words (buzzwords, actually) to make useless things sound more important

"Rubric" comes to mind and several others that are more phrases than single words. "Constructivism", "Think-pairs-share", etc....I'm getting a headache now

Pete

[Argos]

I'm just wondering when the misuse of a word is so widespread that it becomes officially correct. Who would make such a decision?

The majority of speakers?

Languages are living entities. Grammar books can only hope to strive to keep up with them.

[Jim]

I did my basic training in Alabama. It was the first time I had ever spent more than a week west of Utah. In the mapreading class...

I'm guessing you didn't pay attention in class much. Well, unless you consider Alabama as really, really west of Utah.

[Sticks]

IIRC a lot of the rules of spelling only came about as a consequence of the invention of the printing press.

Now with the arrival of text message communications, spelling is already changing again so words are starting to contain numbers as well as letter

[ToSeek]

Look I'm not complaining about people using words that don't exist. I'm just wondering when the misuse of a word is so widespread that it becomes officially correct. Who would make such a decision?

For French, it's the Acad&#233;mie fran&#231;aise, but even that's just for France. The Qu&#233;b&#233;cois aren't going to listen to them.

There's no English equivalent, though there are for numerous other languages.

[Tog]

I'm guessing you didn't pay attention in class much. Well, unless you consider Alabama as really, really west of Utah.

Ummm east.. yeah east. I do that with left and right a lot too. Now that I think about it, I use Friday and Wednesday interghangably as well.

[Lurker]

I would explain to my students that English was difficult to teach because it is continually being impacted by change...

Without at least some rules, you couldn't teach it at all.

Actually my post was just an opportunity to use the hideous term "impacted".... sigh... my humor is just too advanced for this group...

[Gillianren]

Oi. Who are you calling a nerd?

Heh. I use "nerd" for liberal arts and "geek" for sciences, but either can be modified with what you're obsessive about. This is how you can tell I'm an English nerd.

Standardized spelling started with the printing press. However, given that we don't have two signatures of his where Shakespeare used the same spelling of his own name--and none of them were "Shakespeare"--and Sir Francis Drake didn't put an "e" at the end of "Drake," clearly, it took a while even past the printing press for things to get sorted out. In fact, Irish Gaelic didn't get standardized until, I believe, 1920-something, and even then, "standardized" is kind of a loose term.

[DyerWolf]

Interesting. I always thought "Orientate" was a military colloquialism... I've always known the proper word was "orient," but like others used both words interchageably. Every one who has been through a map reading class heard "orientate your map" enough to start using it as a term of art when speaking to others or teaching juniors. It is very common.

After googling the word, I find that its use is more common in England than the US. Perhaps our military's usage of the '-tate' version dates back to some Brit teaching a map class during WWII.

I never drew the connection between "orient the map" and "the Orient." One reason for "orient" being the active word may also relate to Christianity. I recently read a book on early navigational devices. Many early European compases had a "N", "S" and "W" in the proper locations, but a "+" in place of the "E" to show the direction of Jerusalem. If I remember my ancient maps correctly, everything east of Greece was once considered "the Orient". Hence, in days gone by, you probably laid your map and compass down and ensured the cross on both was pointed to the "orient" to figure which way to go.

[Argos]

For French, it's the Académie française, but even that's just for France. The Québécois aren't going to listen to them.

There's no English equivalent, though there are for numerous other languages.

I think you´re better off without them. Nobody takes heed of them anyway...