Order of Kilopi
If he's true to what others predict about him, he'll ignore the substantive objections to his statements and pounce on the nitpicky things. At least he's on record there as saying he'd listen. That should be good for a few laughs.
Those are just parts 1 and 2 of I-don't-know-how-many. Realistically I can only crank out 0.5-1 of those a day.
Order of Kilopi
So far Mr. Jones is a no-show. After the predictable snit about qualifications (and why he believes he doesn't need any) he's cut and run. Gotta love these self-proclaimed "experts" who don't take responsibility for what they say.
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Of all the things that anger me about conspiracists, and there are many, possibly the thing that angers me the most are HBers, who have no relevant qualifications in any applicable field and yet act as though their opinion actually means something next to those of true experts. It's incredibly arrogant and an insult to those who have spent years earning qualifications and doing work in those fields.
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John, your site is linked at the end under 'skeptics'.
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O Cynthia, it's worse than I thought. The Kubrick article is linked.
Established Member
I just read your whole argument with Mr. Jones on sci.astro about qualification.
He was starting to get a little pissed off near the end. He realized you would not back down with simple arguments and it seemd that he was getting angry. Just look at his last few posts on his FAQ discussion. They get madder and madder in its writing. It was actually pretty funny.
I think you should expect a reply to one of your posts saying that your facts are "inconsequential and of no use to the cause". He will say that they are diliberate misconceptions and using exceptions to the rule to get your way or somethin like that.
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I've just read Jay's three part essay on Jones's tripe. Brilliant stuff.
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Where can I read this stuff?Originally Posted by Glom
Established Member
Yes...
Vulcan Administrator
Try this:Where can I read this stuff?
Google groups
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Established Member
Thanks. I didn't want to join yet another user group...Try this:Where can I read this stuff?
Google groups
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It could be useful bait. HBer wannabes go to your site thinking they can endulge their conspiracist urges, find the board and get ambushed by the Claviites. Apollo-hoax is the wolf in sheep's clothing.Yes...
Order of Kilopi
Where can I read this stuff?
When it's done, and pending any revisions, I'll put it at Clavius in the bibliography section.
Established Member
Try this:Where can I read this stuff?
Google groups
Jay, this is a beautifully constructed and measured piece of work. You have penned a line:
"We do not require the world to consistently operate according to
the expectations of the ignorant".
I think I have at last found the line I would like carved on my gravestone!!
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Part one on the nature of proof and evidence is one of Jay's best and that is saying something.
Order of Kilopi
Part one on the nature of proof and evidence is one of Jay's best and that is saying something.
Thank you. Unfortunately Mr. Jones has concluded that I'm not worthy to teach him and has apparently withdrawn from the debate.
I'm not surprised: this is the outcome I expected. He's definitely cut from the same cloth as "Cosmic" Dave. He sees little use for bona fide expertise, which is a common attitude among people who don't have any.
He's got issues with superiority. He really wants to make it look like I consider him inferior. That's also consistent with the type. The conspiracy theory is the universe in which he can be the erudite, well-respected authority, without having to expend the effort to achieve that in the real world. In his universe expertise is irrelevant. He's an expert in his universe simply because he's declared himself to be.
Naturally the biggest threat to that framework is the intrusion of the real world upon his domain. His universe allows for him to be fallible, but it does not allow for him to be so egregiously wrong that he loses his self-proclaimed expert status. He insulates himself as much as possible from the real world, interacting with it only through narrow proxies. And his desire to agree to disagree is a further attempt at insulation: he can acknowledge that I am right in the real world, but he is right in his world.
It is very difficult to convince these people that they have a future in the real world. It requires a leap of faith. They have to drop the facade and admit their shortcoming and trust the inhabitants of the real world to give them some appropriate respect for what they do know and understand. But for most of them it's too convenient to live in the fantasy world. And they don't live there alone, either. As JFKResearch has shown, people are quite happy moving into others' castles in the sky. I'm sure Mr. Jones has, or believes he has, a "following" of people who give him the recognition he wants.
Vulcan Administrator
I note that I can't find his follow-up posts (to which you responded) via Google. Is it possible that he deleted them?
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Established Member
Thank you for the informative and gratifying mental image.
Order of Kilopi
It was originally "head".
What are the rules about posting stuff here from Usenet? I've got Nathan's replies.
Established Member
Well, it just went on the wall of my workshop, in 40-point Copperplate Gothic. It'll be a great follow-up for the next time I have to tell someone "the laws of the physical universe neither know nor care who or how important you are."
Jay, this is a beautifully constructed and measured piece of work. You have penned a line:
"We do not require the world to consistently operate according to
the expectations of the ignorant".
I think I have at last found the line I would like carved on my gravestone!!
Vulcan Administrator
Well, you've quoted most of what he had to say in your responses. It's just interesting that Google can't seem to find the originals.
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Order of Kilopi
They're long articles so I won't post them here unless a lot of people think I should. I quoted the noteworthy excerpts, but that's just what I chose to address. There is other stuff I let go by.
Established Member
You could post the entire thing at Apollohoax, in the private bit. I'm sure the webmaster won't mind...
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That's a bit presumptious, speaking for the webmaster. :PYou could post the entire thing at Apollohoax, in the private bit. I'm sure the webmaster won't mind...
Established Member
Jay, well done. You have much more patience than I. I just perused your posts, and several threads with your responses to Nathan Jones.
If I were interested in responding, I might say the following:
Regarding the claims about the LLTV crashes, Nathan Jones claims the reasons for the crashes are irrelevant, the fact that they crashed 3 of 5 (he says 4 of 5) units is all that matters. What would he say if I told him one of them crashed because it hit a duck? Is a duck something that affects the inherent flying stability of the LLTV, or especially the LM? Explain how the LM is going to have to deal with ducks? But none of them hit a duck, you say? How does he know that, unless he has looked at the causes of the accidents? How can he rule it out, unless he has checked the records?
Or for that matter, we know the LLTV had a jet engine to provide 5/6th of the lift, and a rocket engine to provide the last 1/6th lift. What if the cause of the crash is a failure in the jet engine, which is only to simulate the reduced gravity of the moon, and has no bearing whatsoever on the LM? Does that mean that VTOL rockets are inherently unstable, because a *jet* engine failed?
Without knowing the cause of the crashes, we cannot assert anything about the stability or ease of flying of the LLTVs and especially about the LM.
That is what I might say if I were to respond. Feel free to steal any of that you want.
Order of Kilopi
From Google's FAQ:Well, you've quoted most of what he had to say in your responses. It's just interesting that Google can't seem to find the originals.
http://www.google.com/googlegroups/help.html#prevent
I do not want you to archive my article(s)! How can I prevent messages that I post from being archived on Google Groups?
Google supports the 'X-No-archive: yes' header, and we will not archive any articles that contain this text either in the header or in the first line of the message body.
HTH
Harald
Moderator
A rather neat device, that. You can have your say, misstate, misquote, blatantly lie about the topic to support your position or attack someone else's, and when anyone tries to take you to task for it, you can respond with an, "Oh, yeah? Show me where I said that."
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov
Moderation will be in purple.
Rules for Posting to This Board
Order of Kilopi
... when anyone tries to take you to task for it, you can respond with an, "Oh, yeah? Show me where I said that."
Luckily the implementation of Usenet provides that the message exists on thousands of servers. Whether Google archives it or not is irrelevant.
And the nature of Usenet is such that misstatements, misrepresentations, lies, and a galaxy-ful of irrelevancy is par for the course.
Order of Kilopi
If I were interested in responding, I might say the following: ...
I think you probably found a more concise way to say what I was thinking.
Clearly before talking about the implications of an LLTV crash you have to know what caused the crash. Jones can't even get the number right, much less the engineering. And he's not interested in doing the research. I'm actually surprised at how helpful Dryden has been.
Nathan Jones wants people to think the LLTV was some sort of LM prototype. Not true. It was a simulator. A prototype tests the technology. A simulator tests the pilot, using whatever (possibly irrelevant) technology provides the pilot with the appropriate look and feel. Jones simply refuses to see or acknowledge that difference.
The LLTV wasn't going to "evolve" into something useful. It was a dead-end, so you weld it up and hope it holds until the end of the project, whereupon you're going to scrap it anyway. The actual LM was developed elsewhere, by different people, using completely different techniques and testing procedures. The success or failure of the LLTV had nothing to do with the success or failure of the LM as a machine.
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I think I've found one of those bait mistakes.
Unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine (1,1-dimethylhydrazine) has structural formula (CH3)2NNH2.
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