Have you any information about the midnight Sun?

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

Insist all you want, it doesn't change the facts. At the Arctic Circle or above, on the Summer Solstice, the Sun is visible at local midnight and it is NOT as dark as any normal night.



We don't need to keep reading the same paragraph you have posted over and over again. It's a poetic description of an interesting event but, as others have posted, it doesn't even get the orientation of the sky correct.



Why is this significant? The Sun is low on the horizon and the sky would look very much like it does at sunrise or sunset.



You're quibbling over semantics and getting far too hung up on taking the phrase "midnight sun" too literally. Do you have an actual point to make? If you do then please state it succinctly. It's getting tiresome going over the same material over and over. Posters here have been very patient and have explained the concept of "midnight sun" so that anyone should be able to understand it.

If our explanations aren't good enough, then perhaps it's time to go to a library and educate yourself. You're not going to make much progress by trying to extract scientific understanding from poetry that is factually incorrect.

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

What do you conclude?

[captain swoop]

the pictures on the URL you posted show that the sky is blue and there appears to be normaal daylight!!! so what point are you making??

[grant hutchison]

*Attiyah Zahdeh*, you started this thread like this:
In denial of the many personal experiences and observations reported to you, you are now posting the same URL over and over again.
Can you see how very strange that seems to the rest of us?

Why do you and some other members deny the expeience of those who saw the dusky night of the real midnight Sun?

Because we've seen the midnight sun ourselves, and we know that you are misinterpreting what was written by the one person on the one website you've referenced. We can even tell from the pictures on the website (broad daylight!) that you're misunderstanding what he wrote.

Why did such persons travel hundreds of miles to take photographs for a real midnight Sun if it is possible to see it from everywhere within the Arctic Circle?

They travelled rather less than one hundred miles (on admittedly bad roads, which is why it takes a couple of hours) from Fairbanks to Eagle Summit. That's a jaunt for an Alaskan resident: they drive that far to visit friends of an evening.
And they did so from the south: they were outside the Arctic Circle, and they drove to a road that got them a little closer to the Arctic Circle (within 70 miles). Anyone who lived inside the Arctic Circle would have stayed where they were. (Which would probably be in their beds, since the midnight sun is remarkable only to those of us who rarely see it.)

Grant Hutchison

Edit: Now I'm confused. Your post has disappeared while I was typing.

[captain swoop]

Get it into your head!!!! the sky is blue, its daylight!!!!! aaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!
sorry I ma leaving this thread before I type something I will regret!!!


mutter mumble curse burble!!!!

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

the pictures on the URL you posted show that the sky is blue and there appears to be normaal daylight!!! so what point are you making??

Where is the normal blue sky in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism?

Where is the normal daylight in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism?

Please show all the pictures on posted URL to a group of university students or to any group of people, then ask them whether these pictures were taken during a night period (dusky period) or were taken during a normal daytime with a normal blue sky.

[grant hutchison]

Attiyah Zahdeh, the author of the website to which you link writes, in his very first line:

Alaska (and that part of the world above the Arctic Circle) is known as the "Land of the Midnight Sun" for 24 hours of daylight during the Summer.

(My bold.)
According to the only person you are prepared to believe on this matter, "Midnight Sun" = "24 hours of daylight".
What do you conclude?

Grant Hutchison

[publius]

Edit: Now I'm confused. Your post has disappeared while I was typing.

Happened to me last night as I noticed several of AZ's posts appear and disappear. I think he deletes and retypes.

-Richard

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

Attiyah Zahdeh, the author of the website to which you link writes, in his very first line:
(My bold.)
According to the only person you are prepared to believe on this matter, "Land of the Midnight Sun" = "24 hours of daylight".
What do you conclude?

Grant Hutchison

He means that the direct solar light as a part of the daylight is present 24 hours.


The picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism shows that the horizon sky is not of a normal perfect daylight. The skylight of the horizon shows a dusky appearance. It could be concluded that the skylight of the zenith sky was of a normal night.

[Faultline]

He means that the direct solar light as a part of the daylight is present 24 hours.


The picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism shows that the horizon sky is not of a normal perfect daylight. The skylight of the horizon shows a dusky appearance. It could be concluded that the skylight of the zenith sky was of a normal night.

When you take a picture of the sun, it is so incredibly bright that it drowns out all other light. This means that the sky surrounding the sun will appear dark in the photograph.

I know this because I have some experience with photography. I had to take astrophotos in Obervational Astronomy in college. Also, my dad was a police investigator, and often had to take photographs of crime scenes. I helped him take pictures and develop them the old-fashioned way in a darkroom with tubs of chemicals.

Bright lights in the field of view of a camera cause the surroundings to dim greatly. This is true even of my digital camera at home. Even true of my Mini-DV movie camera. When I point the camera at a lamp in my house, the room suddenly looks darker, even though to the naked eye there is no change in the light level of the room.

Try it yourself.

[grant hutchison]

He means that the direct solar light as a part of the daylight is present 24 hours.

Ah, you've spoken to him and established that by "daylight" he means "night with the sun up"? Because it seems like he might just mean "daylight", given that his down-sun photographs show daylight.

The picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism shows that the horizon sky is not of a normal perfect daylight. The skylight of the horizon shows a dusky appearance.

The picture also contains six suns. You think it shows anything real about the appearances of the sky?

Grant Hutchison

[grant hutchison]

Happened to me last night as I noticed several of AZ's posts appear and disappear. I think he deletes and retypes.

Ah, thanks.
Or just deletes, evidently.

Grant Hutchison

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

Ah, thanks.
Or just deletes, evidently.

Grant Hutchison

I wanted to write experience instead of expeience.

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

"a real midnight Sun"!

What does ""a real midnight Sun" mean to you?

Does it mean a real Sun at midnight, or a real night which the Sun appears during it even as late as at its middle?

In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun?

[Van Rijn]

"a real midnight Sun"!

What does ""a real midnight Sun" mean to you?

Does it mean a real Sun at midnight, or a real night which the Sun appears during it even as late as at its middle?

In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun?

It means that the sun is above the horizon continuously for at least 24 hours, and (aside from clouds) the sky is blue. Just like any other time the sun is up.

Edited to add:

Did you read what was written at the link you keep pointing to?

Alaska (and that part of the world above the Arctic Circle) is known as the "Land of the Midnight Sun" for 24 hours of daylight during the Summer. 'Midnight' sun really means that the sun is up at midnight, but reaches its lowest point after 1:30 am. Perhaps the "All-Night Sun" is better.

Does "All-night Sun" or "24 hour+ sun" make it any clearer?

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

It means that the sun is above the horizon continuously for at least 24 hours, and (aside from clouds) the sky is blue. Just like any other time the sun is up.

Others talked about a dusky sky when they watched the midnight Sun!

When you hear a person saying :"I want to search for a real midnight Sun", do you consider that he is doubtful about the Sun or about the night?

[lek]

Others talked about a dusky sky when they watched the midnight Sun!

When you hear a person saying :"I want to search for a real midnight Sun", do you consider that he is doubtful about the Sun or about the night?

He should not doubt neither, but doubt your definition of "night" . Night does not mean darkness, it means time of day you can check from a clock.

btw, there is a "edit" button, no need to delete and rewrite posts...

[Van Rijn]

Others talked about a dusky sky when they watched the midnight Sun!

Yes. What do you think "dusky sky" means? In this case, he had made it just far enough north for the sun to stay above the horizon. What does the sky look like when the sun is just above the horizon?

As I said before, "dusky" is not the same as the term "dusk." "Dusky" is a commonly used modifier. The normal sky when the sun is just above the horizon can be described as "dusky." It is not black. It is blue.

When you hear a person saying :"I want to search for a real midnight Sun", do you consider that he is doubtful about the Sun or about the night?

Neither. The use of the term has been explained to you repeatedly. If you refuse to accept it, that's your problem.

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

He should not doubt neither, but doubt your definition of "night" . Night does not mean darkness, it means time of day you can check from a clock.

btw, there is a "edit" button, no need to delete and rewrite posts...

Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

[lek]

Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

Sure i'll just go get my crystal ball and contact my ancestors...
Meanwhile, arguing about brightness during midnight sun is quite pointless, there is nothing special about it, the nights near solstice are bright enough to read a book outside even here several hundred kilometers below arctic circle.

How dark is it where you live 5 minutes after sunset? If sun doesn't get lower than that whole "night", do you think it should be darker here?

[Gillianren]

Do not lose patience, Gillianren.
Sorry.

Thank you for calling me the proper name. Do you understand how frustrating it is to explain the same thing over and over again? Yes? Now, picture how annoying it must be when that thing is your name.

Please google this title "reminder of Fairbanks area day light hours" and read "Finding the Midnight Sun".

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian?

That you're wrong, the same thing I've concluded from my greater-than-yours understanding of the English language.

Okay. You've had the phenomenon described to you by your own cited website. You've had it described to you by people on this board who have observed it from farther north. You've had the etymology explained to you. You've had other translations than Arabic given to you. I'm curious. What, exactly, would it take for you to understand that "midnight sun" means "the sun is in the sky at 12:00 midnight"?

[Van Rijn]

Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

Someone lives a bit north of the arctic circle, and every summer the sun stays up longer and longer, then one day, the sun doesn't go below the horizon for (at least) a day. It goes lower in the sky, but it is still in the sky in the middle of the night hours. Hence, "midnight sun." Also, in winter, the sunlit hours grow shorter and shorter, until one day, the sun doesn't quite come above the horizon, and you have a sunless day.

I don't know how much of this is a language issue, how much is not understanding the concept of the angle of the earth relative to the sun, and how much is simple refusal to face facts (despite everyone telling you the same thing) but this couldn't be much more straightforward to me.

[captain swoop]

Your banging your heads, Attiyah thinks the blue sky is a seperate issue to the light from the su. This is an attempt to support the position in the locked threads that (s)he is supposed to be working on supporting with some evidence and facts. If (s)he can establish that the sky is black even though the sun is 'up' at night time it will support the position in the other threads. I don't think there is any evidence you can give short of taking Attiyah to the Arctic that will have any influence.

[grant hutchison]

Summary so far:
Eye-witness accounts from inside the Arctic Circle, or other than at the solstice, don't count.
Eye-witness accounts from ~25km and ~5km from the Arctic Circle on the solstice don't count.
An eyewitness account from >100km from the Arctic Circle on the day of the solstice does count.
This latter account contains the word "dusky", which is interpreted to mean "midnight dark", even though it also contains the phrase "24-hour daylight".
Only photographs taken towards the sun are significant, since they show a dark sky. Photographs taken looking away from the sun, which show a normal level of daylight, don't count.
Our explanation of the difference in apparent light level in these two classes of picture (as a result of differences in exposure) doesn't count.
The original meaning of the phrase "midnight sun" cannot possibly be known, since it was coined by people now dead who left no records: therefore, we are free to imagine that it was intended to mean "the sun out and the sky dark", in the teeth of current dictionary definitions.

I fear captain swoop may be right.
But, Attiyah Zahdeh, can you see what a complete shambles of an argument that is? It rests on nothing but one cherry-picked datum and special pleading.

Grant Hutchison

[Nereid]

There are several ways to quickly get a lot of eyewitness accounts of the appearance of the sky, at midnight, on the solstice, on the Artic Circle - just get a list of towns that are near it (in Alaska, Canada, Greenland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia), find some local tour operators, and make some phone calls.

There might even be places with a line on the ground, like the zero meridian at Greenwich Observatory, marking the Artic Circle, to which the tour operators take tourists, at midnight, on the solstice.

Instead of phone calls, how about finding an internet discussion forum that is highly likely to have people who've stood on the Artic Circle, at midnight, on the solstice? For example, there must be hundreds of people in Rovaniemi* who've done this (and, being Finns, will likely also write in English, and join discussion fora).

*This is just the first 'big' town I found, looking at a map, that's very close to the Artic Circle.

[Essan]

In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun?

The only doubt comes form you misunderstanding of the term midnight. Midnight refers to a specific time on the clock - 00:00z. Just as Midday mean 12:00z.

In midwinter in the arctic circle, it is dark at 12:00z. In midsummer at 00:00z it is light.

That's all you need to understand. And whilst I've not experienced either circumsytance myself, I know many who have - and, indeed, have numerous times seen the latter on TV.

[Attiyah Zahdeh]

The only doubt comes form you misunderstanding of the term midnight. Midnight refers to a specific time on the clock - 00:00z. Just as Midday mean 12:00z.

In midwinter in the arctic circle, it is dark at 12:00z. In midsummer at 00:00z it is light.

That's all you need to understand. And whilst I've not experienced either circumsytance myself, I know many who have - and, indeed, have numerous times seen the latter on TV.

Certainly, the Scandanavians who invented the term "midnight Sun" centuries ago refuse your understanding.

[Hamlet]

Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

I just talked to the "ancient Scandinavians" and they said our explanations have been correct. Also, they really wish you'd stop dragging them into your arguments.

[JMV]

Instead of phone calls, how about finding an internet discussion forum that is highly likely to have people who've stood on the Artic Circle, at midnight, on the solstice? For example, there must be hundreds of people in Rovaniemi* who've done this (and, being Finns, will likely also write in English, and join discussion fora).

My home town.

There might even be places with a line on the ground, like the zero meridian at Greenwich Observatory, marking the Artic Circle, to which the tour operators take tourists, at midnight, on the solstice.

Sure there is a line painted on the ground at Santa Claus' Village that tourists can jump across, but it's not really accurate. The real Arctic Circle goes about a kilometer north of that. As I've understood it, it crosses the runway at Rovaniemi airport and moves a couple of hundred meters north and south every few decades due to nutation.

[Nereid]

My home town.

Sure there is a line painted on the ground at Santa Claus' Village that tourists can jump across, but it's not really accurate. The real Arctic Circle goes about a kilometer north of that. As I've understood it, it crosses the runway at Rovaniemi airport and moves a couple of hundred meters north and south every few decades due to nutation.

I notice that earlier in this thread you wrote about your personal experience of the midnight sun JMV, including that on the summer solstice.

Do you know if there's a tourist thing in Rovaniemi, or nearby, where people (tourists) go, at midnight, on the summer solstice, and stand on (or near) the (possibly not) Arctic Circle?

It's likely so little a thing that the locals could care less (unless there were some cultural or religious festival/occassion?), but the kind of thing that an entrepreneur would at least try, possibly an American ex-pat.

Or maybe we could ask our US BAUT members if they know of any touristy thing like this, near an Alaskan town?

And I guess we could also ask Attiyah Zahdeh to say how many eye-witness accounts he would consider the minimum acceptable (to provide a satisfactory answer) - 3? 30? 300? 3,000??

[antoniseb]

Attiyah Zahdeh is very interested in the midnight Sun. Several of us have experiences with seeing it from near the Artic Circle, but he should really try to see it from closer to the pole. Try, for example, taking a June vacation in Hammerfest Norway, or getting a job that would put you in Antartica in December. See the midnight Sun so that it doesn't look like Sunset, but rather is five or more degrees above the horizon.