Good Astronomy - Moon T-shirt

[Colt]

Faith in a Shadow

I found this while going through that site for my Bible As in Literature class. I am not trying to make a religous statement here but I like the saying. If you are offended easily by things of a religious/atheist (even jokingly) manner do not go through the rest of that site, you have been warned.

By the way, I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Agnostic. Mr. Plait, if you feel that this thread is in any way in appropriate I urge you to delete it at your discretion. Thank you. :-? -Colt

[g99]

HaHa! cute Colt.

My favorite thing is the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish ornament you can put on your car.

[Beaver]

Not offended here, 100% atheist and proud of it.

[ToSeek]

I just wonder if Magellan actually said it: my understanding is that it's a sort of "urban legend" that anyone educated thought the Earth was flat in the Columbus/Magellan era.

[kilopi]

I just wonder if Magellan actually said it: my understanding is that it's a sort of "urban legend" that anyone educated thought the Earth was flat in the Columbus/Magellan era.

Here is a fairly extensive discussion supporting the idea that the church never did support a flat earth. Then, why would Magellan say such a thing? Did he indeed say it?

The issue has become a cultural one--on one side you have anti-religists saying that religion was anti-science, and on the other side you have religion apologists who might be bending the truth themselves.

If Magellan did say it, I'd like to know where and why.

[waynek]

I don't want to spoil the light-hearted tone of this thread, but I find it odd that most non-christians assume than all christians reject evolution (and other scientific theories). I am a scientist and a christian and I see no conflict between the two roles.

As for the Darwin fish, I am not "offended" by them as many Christians might be, but I do consider them fairly tasteless. Mocking religious symbols just doesn't strike me as a very tastefull thing to do.

[ToSeek]

I don't want to spoil the light-hearted tone of this thread, but I find it odd that most non-christians assume than all christians reject evolution (and other scientific theories). I am a scientist and a christian and I see no conflict between the two roles.

Unfortunately, it's the ones who do see a conflict who make the most noise (and get the most press).

[g99]

See From all i have read in books, Columbus was not searching to proove the earth was round. That was just a urbn legend. Columbus was actually just searching for a faster route to India.

I guess after finding America's he fired his navigator. :-)

And waynek, sorry for ofending you. I only ment it in a light hearted manner. I am not a atheist, more "I have no clue/jewish" religion. I hope you knew that it was just in good humour. :-)

[Beaver]

I don't want to spoil the light-hearted tone of this thread, but I find it odd that most non-christians assume than all christians reject evolution (and other scientific theories).

Everybody always talks about the "Christians" refuting evalution on the web. Are there others groups avidly refuting.You do say non-christians like everybody else in the world is for evalution

[daver]

Everybody always talks about the "Christians" refuting evalution on the web. Are there others groups avidly refuting.You do say non-christians like everybody else in the world is for evalution

Umm, did you mean evolution or evaluation? The former makes a bit more sense, the latter is funnier.

Other religions have their problems with it. I've heard about complaints from ultra-orthodox jews. One of the middle-eastern leaders was said to be opposed to teaching science because it teaches that the world is round, which contradicts the Koran. I don't know if any of that is true (whether one of the leaders said it, or whether it contradicts the Koran)--i do find it a bit ironical because i think some of the impetus behind spherical geometry and some of the early astronomical devices (some features on the astrolabe) was to find the proper direction to pray so that you were facing Mecca.

[Mr. X]

Somehow I don't think he would have said it, unless he was really keen on spending the next (and his last) couple of months in an iron maiden.

Everyone feels weak when they hear of this device the first time.

Now's the time to get information as one was just found in Iraq.

Quite rightly so, as it is probably the most sadistic and disturbing means of torture ever devised by man.

[ToSeek]

See From all i have read in books, Columbus was not searching to proove the earth was round. That was just a urbn legend. Columbus was actually just searching for a faster route to India.

I guess after finding America's he fired his navigator. :-)

Actually, I think he died believing he had found India.

[Comixx]

Columbus, at first, believed he'd found the western India passage, they called it the West Indies, thinking it was islands off the coast of India...they shortly realized this was not true, and he knew that he'd found the beginnings of the new world, but he got bogged down in administering the new colony and trying to make it profitable. Political backstabbing back in Spain caused him to be arrested and brought back to Spain, where he was imprisoned for his failures to find and bring back gold and riches, and all his worldly possesions were taken as repayment. While he was in prison, Amerigo Vespuci sailed farther west and discovered the Florida Keys and then mainland North and South America. Columbus had always maintained that he only needed to go a bit farther to find the mainland (only one more week of sailing, in fact), but never got the resources. When Amerigo got credit for the discovery, Columbus basically faded away into a quiet life trying to rebuild his home and reputation.

edit to add: What his voyage did prove was that the known-round world was a bit larger than they had thought...until then, current theory was that the Atlantic Ocean bordered Europe and India...Columbus' voyage led to the discovery of a new continent and another vast ocean, the Pacific, which nearly doubled the size of the world.

[waynek]

Good point Beaver, I should have said something more like "non-religious" rather than "non-christian", but even that generalization is likely not very accurate. Of course, here in south Texas the two terms have pretty much the same meaning.

Also, as I said I wasn't offended g99, just wanted to point out an aspect of the Darwin fish that a lot of people seem to overlook. The fish, or ichthus is a religous symbol just like a cross or a Star of David (see http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm for example). Clever as it may be, the fish with legs is still a bit of a cheap shot. Or perhaps I'm just being overly sensitive because it implies I am a creationist because I have a fish on my car.

[snowcelt]

One little nitpic Comixx. Columbus actually made four voyages: 1492, 93, 98, and 1502.

[ToSeek]

edit to add: What his voyage did prove was that the known-round world was a bit larger than they had thought...until then, current theory was that the Atlantic Ocean bordered Europe and India...Columbus' voyage led to the discovery of a new continent and another vast ocean, the Pacific, which nearly doubled the size of the world.

Well, I could be wrong again, but my recollection is that Columbus's controversial belief was not that the Earth was round but that it was smaller than was generally believed, so that it was feasible to sail west to get to India. Certainly the Americas were a surprise to everyone, in any case.

[Comixx]

Ah, yes, thank you. I had forgotten the voyages he made with his son to finally view the new world. I'm not sure how long it took for him to get credit, though...I believe the Queen believed in him, and that's why she released him from prison, and certainly others in the court knew Columbus was right...but the vast majority of the intelligencia of the time thought he was a fraud.

Also, above where I say the size of the world was doubled, I meant as a concept...we knew the radius of the Earth back in Greek times, but our concept of it's size was much smaller than the physical reality.

[g99]

Ehhem....

The discovery of the Americas was not a surprise to everyone. Everyone knows that the Native Americans knew it was there.
:-)


Seriously, in ~1000 a.d the vikings discovered newfoundland and greenland.
They even named greenland as "greenland".
So they technically were the first.

but living in lans au medaux is too long to say. :-)

----------------
I don't have the darwin fish on my car and truthfully i never knew the history of it. I always thoght that is was playing off of the whole cartoon of you see a bacteria and then 10 panels later you have a guy in a buisness suit. I always thought iof it as a joke.

See, you learn something every day. :-) Thanks.

[Comixx]

Ehhem....

The discovery of the Americas was not a surprise to everyone. Everyone knows that the Native Americans knew it was there.
:-)

And when Europeans found them, they called them Indians because they thought they were from India. Even after we knew this wasnt India, the monicker stuck...strange how that kind of thing works.

I've heard there is evidence of Vikings trading with Native Americans in the Northeastern US/Eastern Canadian coastal regions.

[Beaver]

Everybody skips over the Portuguese
http://www.thornr.demon.co.uk/kchrist/portam.html

[snowcelt]

Columbus had a very good idea as to the diameter of the Earth. To sell his voyage to the authorities he played on their ignorance and used "short" figures from what was then the current ideas as to how far it was to India.

[kilopi]

Also, above where I say the size of the world was doubled, I meant as a concept...we knew the radius of the Earth back in Greek times, but our concept of it's size was much smaller than the physical reality.

Apparently not. Our concept didn't change, and neither did Columbus's.

The size was known from Greek times. Columbus didn't just fudge figures (otherwise he would never have set off on his voyage), he seemed to really believe the wrongful ones.

As ToSeek says, he seemed to believe until he died that he'd landed near India. He was too good of a sailor to think that he'd sailed that far, unless he thought the earth was a lot smaller than it actually is.

[daver]

Columbus had a very good idea as to the diameter of the Earth. To sell his voyage to the authorities he played on their ignorance and used "short" figures from what was then the current ideas as to how far it was to India.

I'm not sure that is accurate. I'd read the two competing diameters theory, and had heard that one of the near mutinies occurred when it became apparent that the smaller diameter wasn't correct (or when they had gone through a significant portion of their provisions. That seems more likely). You could probably settle this for sure by looking at the provisions he carried--see if they would have been sufficient for a "big diameter" voyage.

Lots of Columbus stories; some say that he was a Northern European and had heard the Viking tales of Vinland, and so thought he had evidence for a "small earth" theory.

[kilopi]

You could probably settle this for sure by looking at the provisions he carried--see if they would have been sufficient for a "big diameter" voyage.

Last time we discussed this, didn't someone link to the logs (and yes logs, I seem to remember he kept two--to hide his true misgivings from the crew) and they show that he did not have enough for an actual trip to India, if the Americas weren't in the way.

PS: Link to previous discussion

[tracer]

And when Europeans found them, they called them Indians because they thought they were from India.

Not quite.

"India", at the time of Columbus's voyage, did not mean the country we think of as India today. It meant southern and/or eastern Asia in general. Columbus was actually trying to find Japan.

There's a Straight Dope mailbag article about it, at http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgenteindios.html.

[Comixx]

Cool, cleared up some of my misconceptions too, then.

So, Columbus thought the world was smaller in diameter than the Greeks, is that what we're saying? If he really believed the larger diameter, wouldn't he have stocked for the entire trip from Europe to Japan based on the time it would take to sail that larger diameter? I thought the reason he never continued was, because of the mess he made of governance of the island he landed on, he never managed to restock his provisions...but that he believed he was close to striking the main landmass.

Apparently not. Our concept didn't change, and neither did Columbus's.

The size was known from Greek times. Columbus didn't just fudge figures (otherwise he would never have set off on his voyage), he seemed to really believe the wrongful ones.

As ToSeek says, he seemed to believe until he died that he'd landed near India. He was too good of a sailor to think that he'd sailed that far, unless he thought the earth was a lot smaller than it actually is.

If the Greeks and Columbus' concepts were correct, why would he have misjudged so badly? If the Greeks were correct, but Columbus' concept of the distance was skewed by incorrect thinking, wouldnt that account for his misjudgement? Did he think that India and the Americas were close together or connected?

[kilopi]

If the Greeks were correct, but Columbus' concept of the distance was skewed by incorrect thinking, wouldnt that account for his misjudgement? Did he think that India and the Americas were close together or connected?

Apparently, that was the case. Columbus believed in the wrongful, smaller size. Even until he died, as I've come to understand it.

[daver]

You could probably settle this for sure by looking at the provisions he carried--see if they would have been sufficient for a "big diameter" voyage.

Last time we discussed this, didn't someone link to the logs (and yes logs, I seem to remember he kept two--to hide his true misgivings from the crew) and they show that he did not have enough for an actual trip to India, if the Americas weren't in the way.

PS: Link to previous discussion

Interesting. Thanks. I wonder what the chance is of the new information successfully displacing the old in my head.

[tracer]

Last time we discussed this, didn't someone link to the logs (and yes logs, I seem to remember he kept two--to hide his true misgivings from the crew) and they show that he did not have enough for an actual trip to India, if the Americas weren't in the way.

Not enough for a trip to what WE call "India", or not enough for a trip to what was called "India" at the time, i.e. southeast asia including Japan?

[kilopi]

His stated destination.

I'm very interested in looking into this more deeply. This way looks more reasonable, and it doesn't seem to be the work of people who are interested in demonizing Columbus. But some of the major proponents seem to be religion apologists that are trying to make the arguments against Columbus seem less wrong. Not that they weren't, but sometimes the whole story isn't told. I've learned that much.