Star Trek, Star Wars and cloaking devices

[Nightfall]

See, you guys should play games more often. In the game Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force. You are a part of a newly formed "hazard team" You have armour, good weapons, and have squad tactics. Your armor protects from beam and kenetic weapons. Also you have more than the two standard phasers. You have also a hodge podge or alien and new human made weapons. Rocket launchers, grenade launchers, beam eapons and a chain gun like device.

So if modern infantry went up against a elite force of Hazard team members, they would be goners. :-)

If this group was "really" on Voyager, then why didn't they make it into any of the episodes? How about, at the very least, why weren't their tactics incorporated into general away missions? Or their weapons? I think that the reason why was that the game was made by someone else, and thus only semi canonical. The game was not designed for the average Star Trek fan but for gamers who are used to playing games like Unreal Tournament and Half Life.

[Shadowhawk]

SG teams always seem to carry radios. I believe in 'Children of the Gods', an SG-2 member, who was patrolling the perimeter while SG-1 was trying to get the refugees to safety, used his radio to alert SG-1 about the arrival of the Jaffar. Is that bad then? Surely radios are important in combat situation.

Well, there's something of a difference.

1) SG teams are 4-man special ops teams (kinda) that tend to break up into smaller teams depending on the mission at hand. It's just good practice that everyone have a short-range radio set. The rule of snipers shooting anyone with a radio is simply to keep their targets deaths quiet as long as possible, and limit their ability to coordinate a search for the sniper.
2) I don't think we've ever seen snipers anywhere in SG, even the SG teams themselves (and, really, a Jaffa sniper would wind up using an energy weapon, kinda making the point of a sniper moot).

[g99]

Actually wouldn't a energy weapon be optimal for a sniper? Silent and the beam would be invisible if there was no fog or heavy dust in the air. Perfect for a sniper. right?

[captain swoop]

One thing i do not understand from Star Trek is why can't you fire when cloaked? If it is a power issue than have passive systems like mines or a rocket. Open up a tube, let go a mine or rocket and send it towards the target. The no fire rule makes no sense to me.

---I tend to follow the EMCON idea of cloaking. Firing while cloaking would give away your position. Even passive weapons like mines (unless they were cloaked as well) would be detected as soon as they were released. If they didn't come to an instant stop, their speed and direction could be used to plot the ship's movements.

But the EMCON (emmision control) theory gets hammered by the fact that voice and even video transmissions are made while cloaked. Those signals would certainly be intercepted and direction finding efforts made.

I think that the inability to fire while cloaked is a plot device to even up the fight.

If you are going to artificialy handicap the Federation by denying them a cloaking device you need to level the playing field otherwise what's to stop the Romulans from just walking in to Federation space?

[captain swoop]

After all those hundreds of years of research and development it comes down to lining up the cross hairs and pressing a button. even Spitfires had 'Gyro' sights that would calculate the correct 'aim off' for a shot, fighters in Star Wars operate like the Red Baron and his fixed sight.

I remember watching a Star Wars parody in which the Obi-Wan character intones in Luke's mind, "Use the automated targetting system, Luke. That's what it's there for!

Thumb Wars

[captain swoop]

But I do argue the statement;
"A soldier without a helmet is not ready for combat."
Maybe for "legs", but after nearly 11 years in, mostly in Special Operations units, I had no use for helmets other than for airborne ops. After we hit the DZ, we ditched the pot for a soft cap. 6 pounds of crap on my noggin is a distraction. The actual safety afforded by a kevlar pot is minimal, and inhibits the soldier.

Tell that to the Royal marine who got 4 in the head at Basra, all stopped by his 'battle bowler'.

Once out of the high intensity fire fights the RM switched to their green berets. look at casualty lists for Korea where British regiments wore berets and compare with the US Army who wore M1s. They do work. Spec Ops is a differrent case though, quite low intensity.

[captain swoop]

1) SG teams are 4-man special ops teams (kinda) that tend to break up into smaller teams depending on the mission at hand. It's just good practice that everyone have a short-range radio set. The rule of snipers shooting anyone with a radio is simply to keep their targets deaths quiet as long as possible, and limit their ability to coordinate a search for the sniper.
2) I don't think we've ever seen snipers anywhere in SG, even the SG teams themselves (and, really, a Jaffa sniper would wind up using an energy weapon, kinda making the point of a sniper moot).

All British infantry in the Gulf have a short range personal 'section' (same as a US Squad) radio. It's integrated into the helmet and webbing.

Jaffa snipers would be useless, the Staff weapon has no sights, for an attempt at accurate fire over any distance you just 'squint' along its length. In 'Allegiance (season six) O'Neill and Carter demonstrate the hitting power and accuracy of a P90 to sceptical rebel Jaffa who don't consider it to a 'true' weapon, I used a quote from Jack about it being a weapon of war designed to kill people, not a weapon of terror to intimidate people elsewhere.

[Stuart]

In the game Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force. You are a part of a newly formed "hazard team" You have armour, good weapons, and have squad tactics. Your armor protects from beam and kenetic weapons. Also you have more than the two standard phasers. You have also a hodge podge or alien and new human made weapons. Rocket launchers, grenade launchers, beam weapons and a chain gun like device.

There's no mention of this force in any of the TV shows or films so I have to ask if its part of the official Startrek Universe. Put another way, are the cannons canon?

[captain swoop]

In the game Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force. You are a part of a newly formed "hazard team" You have armour, good weapons, and have squad tactics. Your armor protects from beam and kenetic weapons. Also you have more than the two standard phasers. You have also a hodge podge or alien and new human made weapons. Rocket launchers, grenade launchers, beam weapons and a chain gun like device.

There's no mention of this force in any of the TV shows or films so I have to ask if its part of the official Startrek Universe. Put another way, are the cannons canon?

All of which are reskins of the standard 'Unreal' weapons with a few tweaks.

The new Elite Force is set on the Enterprise of TNG, like the original it will have original cast doing voices.

[Stuart]

Following a quick email consultation with Colonel Supatra

Soldiers do wear insignia in the field. They wear muted color versions.

Some armies do, some do not. Suphi's units are one that doesn't.

But I do argue the statement; "A soldier without a helmet is not ready for combat." Maybe for "legs", but after nearly 11 years in, mostly in Special Operations units, I had no use for helmets other than for airborne ops. After we hit the DZ, we ditched the pot for a soft cap. 6 pounds of crap on my noggin is a distraction.

There have been a couple of debates on this over at our board. Colonel Supatra is a pot-patron, several of our other veterans are battle bonnet believers. For us non-grunts, watching the vets having at eachother over the issue was fun. Come on over, and join the gang.

The actual safety afforded by a kevlar pot is minimal, and inhibits the soldier.

There is an odd story there. The modern iteration of helmets were first issued to the British Army in 1915. Almost immediately, there was a great increase in the number of head-wounds being received by casualty clearing stations. Soon, the legend started to spread that helmets were attracting shrapnel and shell fragments. This was obviously absurd so the powers that be investigated. What they discovered was that the new hemets were converting what would have been fatal injuries into (at best) minor or (at worst) treatable ones. But dead people don't get brought in to casualty clearing stations so the illusion of greater casualties was actually being brought about by greater survivability.

Watch a video of the 101st and you'll see a sea of hard hats. Then watch the Rangers in action. Nothing but soft caps.

True, but look at the Marines or 3ID - a sea of helmets. In Mogadishu, Delta was hit hard partly because they weren't wearing proper helmets (PS to that comment, Colonel Supatra promises that if Thai APCs ever have to pull your guys out a similar situation, you won't ever have to run alongside)

But hey, the kevlar was better to shave out of than a soft cap.

We both grinned at that one, there's something we know you don't

I thought we should add a spike on top of the kevlar for effect.

Its actually a good idea - unless one gets thrown into the overhead while riding a slick.

[captain swoop]

There is an odd story there. The modern iteration of helmets were first issued to the British Army in 1915. Almost immediately, there was a great increase in the number of head-wounds being received by casualty clearing stations. Soon, the legend started to spread that helmets were attracting shrapnel and shell fragments. This was obviously absurd so the powers that be investigated. What they discovered was that the new hemets were converting what would have been fatal injuries into (at best) minor or (at worst) treatable ones. But dead people don't get brought in to casualty clearing stations so the illusion of greater casualties was actually being brought about by greater survivability.

Watch a video of the 101st and you'll see a sea of hard hats. Then watch the Rangers in action. Nothing but soft caps.

True, but look at the Marines or 3ID - a sea of helmets. In Mogadishu, Delta was hit hard partly because they weren't wearing proper helmets

The British WW1 helmet was designed to protect from overhead as the troops were in trenches and air burst shells were causing the most casualties.

In WWII the US and German style of helmets was a better design. After D-Day you will see the British troops wearing a different helmet to the one widely thought of.


This is getting way off topic for this board though.

PS What board are u refering to?

[Stuart]

The British WW1 helmet was designed to protect from overhead as the troops were in trenches and air burst shells were causing the most casualties. In WWII the US and German style of helmets was a better design.

You're right about the design object; in that respect the old British soup plate was a better design than the later German or US designs. The German helmet in particular gave much better protection againsta wider range of threats though.

After D-Day you will see the British troops wearing a different helmet to the one widely thought of.

I think you'll find those are paratroopers who had a different helmet design from the start. The British kept the original soup plate through to Korea at least - I've looked for a reference as to when they were finally replaced but they survived, at least in part, well into the 1950s. There was a supplementary design that looks like a revised version of the soup-plate incorporating some features of the US helmet but I don't think it was universal issue. It also appears in some photographs of the Korean War.

This is getting way off topic for this board though.

Not necessarily, what its highlighting is the total disregard for accuracy that pervades Startrek extends far beyond just Bad Astronomy, As we're pointing out, it would be very easy for the makers to get things (whether it be military details or basic astronomy) right. The information is readily available - all they have to do is spend five minutes searching. Yet they just can't be bothered - they'd rather produce ridiculous howlers than take the trouble to be realistic.

PS What board are u refering to?

I hope the BA doesn't mind the link (if it is a breach of custom, I apologize and will remove it) but this is the board. One or two people from here have already ambled over .

http://pub82.ezboard.com/bhistorypol...ntaffairs68862

[Glom]

BA's never had a problem with linking to other sites before.

I agree that it is relevant to the discussion of combat tactics in popular sci-fi, but debating whether the Germans, the British or the Americans had the best helmets is an indulgence, though interesting.

I should note that in 'Homefront' [DS9], Admiral Leyton did speak of personal forcefields and photo grenades, but of course we never saw them.

What's interesting to note of course is that physicists always rant about how the beams from beam weapons shouldn't be visible the way they are. But it's not just that, it's that they are a liability. A big visible beam will give away your position. It's bad science and bad tactics at the same time.

[Stuart]

BA's never had a problem with linking to other sites before.

I thought so, but I didn't want to be presumptious

I agree that it is relevant to the discussion of combat tactics in popular sci-fi, but debating whether the Germans, the British or the Americans had the best helmets is an indulgence, though interesting. I should note that in 'Homefront' [DS9], Admiral Leyton did speak of personal forcefields and photo grenades, but of course we never saw them.

The best personal forcefields around in Startrek are used by the Borg and we have Canon that they can't take bursts from a .45 SMG. So does appear that everybody in that universe is still vulnerable to nickel-coated lead. Incidently, in Star Fleet Insurrection, Worf uses what appears to be an equivalent to an M72 rocket launcher against a group of enemies. This makes the lack of body armor on Star Trek even less explicable - obviously the virtues of fragmentation are understood - just not acted on.

What's interesting to note of course is that physicists always rant about how the beams from beam weapons shouldn't be visible the way they are. But it's not just that, it's that they are a liability. A big visible beam will give away your position. It's bad science and bad tactics at the same time.

Depends on environment. I've got a 9mm pistol fitted with laser sights and the beam is invisible - most of the time. Except when the range is really smoky (usually from black powder) then the beam shows up as a diffuse red line. Sidescatter from the smoke particles of course. ***SCREETCHING BACK INTO ASTRONOMY*** - I wonder if the density of interstellar gas and particles would be enough to cause the same effect with a spaceship phaser beam. I'm sure the density of particles etc is very low but the energy of the beam is much higher so there should be some side-scatter surely? (I'm doing some work on high-energy lasers at the moment and scattering is an interesting area of that effort).

[snowcelt]

Well Stuart, gave all of my vitals and they would not let me in. Sometimes it sucks to be me.

[g99]

In the game Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force. You are a part of a newly formed "hazard team" You have armour, good weapons, and have squad tactics. Your armor protects from beam and kenetic weapons. Also you have more than the two standard phasers. You have also a hodge podge or alien and new human made weapons. Rocket launchers, grenade launchers, beam weapons and a chain gun like device.

There's no mention of this force in any of the TV shows or films so I have to ask if its part of the official Startrek Universe. Put another way, are the cannons canon?

All of which are reskins of the standard 'Unreal' weapons with a few tweaks.

The new Elite Force is set on the Enterprise of TNG, like the original it will have original cast doing voices.

Concerning the Unreal engine: Not True. It is the Quake 3 engine.(info) They rewrote most of the engine. It is not just a graphics change.



And to answer the above question, no it is not in the shows. But it takes place inbetween the shows. The First Elite force game takes place near the end of the Voyager series. But it is not in any of the episodes. But it does include all of the cast from the show. You even get to interact with them.

The newest one (Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force 2) takes off directly from the last episode of Voyager (you get to fight the borg and then help them return home) and then right before and after the newest Trek movie Nemesis.

So the second takes off from the shows, but is not recognized on T.V.

[Stuart]

Well Stuart, gave all of my vitals and they would not let me in. Sometimes it sucks to be me.

Ouch, Somethings wrong. Let me look at it and get back to you. Serious apologies for the discourtesy.

[snowcelt]

Sorry Stuart---I figured it out. ops:

[SollyLama]

The Kevlar only protects the parts of the head with lots of skull around it. There's no protection for the soft parts like neck, throat and face.
I did think of one other time we used Kevlars: when we used the RSOV's (Ranger Special Ops Vehicle- like an early FAV) and the dirt bikes we had for airfield seizure.
I never watched the Stargate series. I saw the movie and thought the alien/Egyptian thing was a good concept. But then I came here and read countless Sitchin believer posts and realized that people are watching way too much Sci-Fi these days.
I have to question the Standard Operating Procedures for all these Sci-Fi shows. In Stargate the first group they sent through was an armed military team. Why? What precedent did they have for feeling the need to be armed? Were the first astronauts packing SMGs? Why not space suits, since they didn't know where the gate led? I think this was to show the military in a bad light. Always sinister and looking for trouble. It happens alot in film.
Obviously Star Trek would have no senior officers left if they always sent them on recce missions, armed only with a vibrator that sparkles. And how dumb is it to send the captain of your flagship (well known to the enemy) on espionage missions? They do know that it's perfectly legitimate to execute a captured spy, don't they. The Romulans (in just one example) could have killed Picard publically and been able to thumb their nose at the Federation.
Star Wars has the heroes as terrorists. Regardless of how bad the Empire is supposed to be (seems rather a law and order crew to me- people on Luke's home planet seem to go about their business unmolested) the rebels use terrorist tactics (not wearing uniforms/wearing enemy uniforms) and represent an insurgency against the government.

[Nightfall]

The Kevlar only protects the parts of the head with lots of skull around it. There's no protection for the soft parts like neck, throat and face.
I did think of one other time we used Kevlars: when we used the RSOV's (Ranger Special Ops Vehicle- like an early FAV) and the dirt bikes we had for airfield seizure.
I never watched the Stargate series. I saw the movie and thought the alien/Egyptian thing was a good concept. But then I came here and read countless Sitchin believer posts and realized that people are watching way too much Sci-Fi these days.

I would argue that they are not watching, or reading, enough sci-fi, because I feel that too many people do not understand the point of fiction in general. Any ways, I do not understand why you would not watch the series because of what other people do and believe.

I have to question the Standard Operating Procedures for all these Sci-Fi shows. In Stargate the first group they sent through was an armed military team. Why? What precedent did they have for feeling the need to be armed? Were the first astronauts packing SMGs? Why not space suits, since they didn't know where the gate led? I think this was to show the military in a bad light. Always sinister and looking for trouble. It happens alot in film.

Two completely different senarios. First we know that the moon is airless, lifeless rock because the moon is one of the most observed celestial objects. Before the astronauts left, we knew that there is nothing their that would attack the astronauts as they stepped out of the lander. But what the Stargate team is doing is traveling to a different world, one that they think could be inhabited by who ever built the Stargates. They don't know if the aliens, or possibly the humans that live there, would be friendly to visitors. Secondly, the flora and fauna on a alien planet could be deadly. If the first group was attacked by some rampaging wild beast, then the first group on the planet would need some way to stop it. I think that a group of armed scouts would be the best group to handle such situations.

Star Wars has the heroes as terrorists. Regardless of how bad the Empire is supposed to be (seems rather a law and order crew to me- people on Luke's home planet seem to go about their business unmolested) the rebels use terrorist tactics (not wearing uniforms/wearing enemy uniforms) and represent an insurgency against the government.

You do know that there probably would not have been a US if it was not for a terrorist attack? (The Boston Tea Party, if any one wants to know.) This idea of overthrowing a tyrannical government goes back to John Locke, and his position that if a government does not fullfil its obligation to its citizens, then they have the right to overthrow it. Right or wrong, Locke is the basis on which the US is built, so many Americans will find nothing wrong with this idea.

[Glom]

I have to question the Standard Operating Procedures for all these Sci-Fi shows. In Stargate the first group they sent through was an armed military team. Why? What precedent did they have for feeling the need to be armed? Were the first astronauts packing SMGs? Why not space suits, since they didn't know where the gate led? I think this was to show the military in a bad light. Always sinister and looking for trouble. It happens alot in film.

Firstly, they found the fossilised remains of a horseguard, which led them to believe threatening aliens lived there, which is why O'Neill took the nuke with him. But still, they were a bit over militant, which is why the movie isn't nearly as good as the series. Secondly, they sent a MALP through the gate first which showed the destination was habitable.

Obviously Star Trek would have no senior officers left if they always sent them on recce missions, armed only with a vibrator that sparkles. And how dumb is it to send the captain of your flagship (well known to the enemy) on espionage missions? They do know that it's perfectly legitimate to execute a captured spy, don't they. The Romulans (in just one example) could have killed Picard publically and been able to thumb their nose at the Federation.

The right people for the right job is something that the Creators of Star Trek have never considered. In 'The Bonding' [TNG], Security Officer Worf was heading an archeological survey. In 'Vanishing Point' [ENT], an archeological mission consisted of an engineer and a communications officer. In Classic, they were worse in that constantly beamed down the entire senior staff on an away team, but better in that they often had specialists along. In fact, Phil Farrand called it the Kirk 'This is the most dangerous planet in the galaxy so let's beam down the entire senior staff' Syndrome.

Star Wars has the heroes as terrorists. Regardless of how bad the Empire is supposed to be (seems rather a law and order crew to me- people on Luke's home planet seem to go about their business unmolested) the rebels use terrorist tactics (not wearing uniforms/wearing enemy uniforms) and represent an insurgency against the government.

It's not really fair to judge a work of the 1970s based on our present mentality. On Luke's home planet Tatooine, the Empire don't really have a strong prescence. It's on the outer rim. The idea was to hide Luke there so he would be out of the jurisdiction of the Emporer. Also, exactly what either side is doing isn't really well established. The Empire doesn't seem to be held responsible for many atrocities or infringements of democracy. It's not until after the Rebel Alliance has started and gained momentum that the Emporer dissolves the Senate and the Death Star is commisioned, which makes us wonder what the Rebel Alliance was so uppity about in the first place. Further, we don't know what the Rebels are actually doing. It's not until they are attacked that they actually start doing some fighting. We don't hear much reports of actual terrorist activities.

[daver]

I never watched the Stargate series. I saw the movie and thought the alien/Egyptian thing was a good concept.

I saw the movie--i liked the beginning (finding the stargate, trying to figure it out) better than the ending. The Stargate was a military operation (hmm, why? I've forgotten. Obviously alien technology? And why a North American stargate instead of a middle eastern stargate--did we move the entire building and its infrastructure?).

I have to question the Standard Operating Procedures for all these Sci-Fi shows. In Stargate the first group they sent through was an armed military team. Why? What precedent did they have for feeling the need to be armed?

Spacesuits would have been a reasonable precaution. Good odds that they wouldn't need them (if you don't have hotel rooms on your side with chlorine atmospheres, most likely you won't have many destinations on the far side with chlorine atmospheres), but it's a reasonable precaution.

The Stargate team knew that the Stargate probably opened onto a life-bearing planet. Also that noone had come through this Stargate for a long time. It would be reasonable to assume that the civilzation had collapsed. Biowar suits and protective arms would be a reasonable precaution.

the rebels use terrorist tactics (not wearing uniforms/wearing enemy uniforms) and represent an insurgency against the government.

guerilla tactics, not terrorist tactics. They weren't shown blowing up shopping malls or coffee shops. Regardless, captured rebels need not be recognized as enemy POWs, assuming the Empire followed the Geneva conventions.

[Glom]

I saw the movie--i liked the beginning (finding the stargate, trying to figure it out) better than the ending.

The idea of the Stargate is what's intriguing. The idea of ancient gods being advanced aliens is also intriguing. I think the series is really clever in the way it manages to integrate ancient mythology into the sci-fi sction stuff. I was a bit confused over why they needed Jackson's help. It seemed that the only thing they didn't know was the point of origin. They knew everything else.

The Stargate was a military operation (hmm, why? I've forgotten. Obviously alien technology? And why a North American stargate instead of a middle eastern stargate--did we move the entire building and its infrastructure?).

It's no mystery that advanced alien technology would be coveted by the military. I'm not sure what you mean by North American gate. The Alpha-Gate was found in Giza and then transported at some point to the US.

[Colt]

The only episodes I can think of that showed ground forces were 'Nor the Battle to the Strong' and 'The Seige of AR-558'. In the former, we didn't see them in combat, it focused more on the hospital. The latter was one in which the Defiant offered relief to a Starfleet crew trying to hold a captured Dominion communications array. Nog got his leg amputated if that helps to identify it. Stuart, can you give us your thoughts on 'The Seige of AR-558'?

The best way to evaluate this is to look at how Starfleet and their enemy handled this, then compare with how a modern army would deal with the situation when replacing either side. I’d like to acknowledge two sources for this that are invaluable. One is Michael Wong, author of the website Stardestroyer.net that is a wealth of information on both Star Wars and Startrek, the other is Colonel Supatra Soavapop of the Royal Thai Army, an old friend and a skilled infantry officer.

(snipped to not take up space on the board)

If the modern infantry replace the Jemhadar, its even worse. The Starfleet forces land and get blown apart by mortar fire. Without fragmentation protection or counter-battery fire and too ill-equipped to take the offensive they’re slaughtered and surrender within hours. Commander Sisko is arrested and executed because his conduct is an offense against good taste. Dr Bashir is executed (same grounds). Nog is summarily executed for being annoying.

Wow, I never realized that more than one of you had a military intelligence side to you. I'm glad that I was not the only one who has seen all of the wrong-doings about military matters in SF. I would say more but it has all but been said by you all.

At first I could not figure out what you were talking about with the Type-III Rifle (should be called a carbine, like the .30" M1) not having a shoulder stock on it until I remembered that there have been two versions of it: Type-III Carbine, Type-III Rifle

It does appear that as Star Trek gets a bigger budget to play around with and modern weaponry begins looking more advanced than something in SF (OICW XM-29) that they must make their weapons look more realistic and advance than some smooth plastic shell.

This is what appears can be done with Star Trek technology when someone has set their mind to it. Anyway, very cool thread. -Colt

[Colt]

Oh, one thing I have never been able to figure out about SG-1 is where are all of the cargo star gates? I can not believe that those gates (that might fit a HMMWV through the mdidle) are all that can be. -Colt

[Glom]

Remember Colt, the Ancients are the gate builders. They were part of the Alliance of Four Great Races in the Galaxy, including the Asgard. The Asgard have very, very fast ships. If really heavy loads need to be transported, the Asgard could do it. The Stargates were probably just devices of convenience.

Think of it like this. If you have to get somewhere, you'd take a bus. If you have to ship loads of stuff with you, you'd take the car. Different modes of transport for different situations.

Still, the gates are fairly big.

[Chuck]

And the Asgard are little guys.

[Wingnut Ninja]

I've always imagined you could do very interesting things with transporters/wormholes and solar plasma. I really don't think Starfleet has many inquisitive weapons designers.

[Colt]

I've always imagined you could do very interesting things with transporters/wormholes and solar plasma. I really don't think Starfleet has many inquisitive weapons designers.

Yeah, just think of what would happen if they unleashed me in the weapons development section. They would have to build a compound with a sign on the 30' concrete fence reading "Trespass at risk of own life." :wink: -Colt

[captain swoop]

snip


. Doctor Bashir is judged an illegal combatant and summarily executed for bearing arms.



Why? he is a Starfleet officer and in uniform.