saw Clerks 2, and have a "trilogy" question

[novaderrik]

which was the better trilogy
LOTR
Star Wars (eps 4-6)

maybe i should also ask about Transformers and GoBots, but i won't..

[Tog]

I'm going with LOTR (Lord of the Rings) mainly becasue of the reasons put forth in the first Clerks. I haven't seen the second one yet.

In the first one, they talked about how good everythig was right up to the end of Empire Strikes Back. Then, Return of the Jedi had the wheels come off. I understand what he was trying to do with the Ewoks, but it just didn't work for me. It went from a space epic, to a segue to a cartoon in the span of about 1/2 a movie.

LOTR didn't have that drop for me. Everything was pretty solid and consistent thoughout. I still haven't read the books, so I'm only going by the movies here.

[Van Rijn]

I picked LOTR. However, the "episodes 4-6" bit always confuses me. Despite the way Lucas likes to muck things up, I'll always think of "Star Wars" (with that name) as episode one, with the recent set as the later trilogy.

Anyway, there is simply no contest between LOTR and the recent three Star Wars movies (boring, no story, with FX overload). But I thought "Star Wars" was great for what it was. And I liked "Empire . . ." and "Return . . ." a lot as well, though not as much as "Star Wars." So while I would still give LOTR the nod, the old Star Wars trilogy compares much better than the new.

As for LOTR, I felt "Fellowship . . ." and "Two Towers" were fantastic, but "Return" was merely very good.

[Gillianren]

Well, since I don't like Tolkein, there's really no debate for me. I mean, I felt the first and third were shiny (I've only seen about half of the second), but I really have no idea what was going on most of the time. Maybe it's because I can never remember half the characters' names. (Or two thirds. Or three quarters.)

[HenrikOlsen]

Argh!! Tolkien.

[ToSeek]

Uh, oh, Gillian made a spelling error!

I'd probably go with LOTR, because I think the Star Wars movies go downhill after the first one. (Actually, the LOTR movies do, too, just not as much.)

[Redtail]

Star Wars Ep 4-6.

Reason 1: Vader. I love the fact that in the Imperial Navy advancement in rank by him causes a look of "Ah crap!"

Reason 2: Womp Rats. I was sitting in math class some years later taking a quiz when it suddenly dawned on me that a meter is 3.2 ft and I blurted out "Jesus those were 6 ft rats!!!"

Reason 3: Ewoks: C'mon! They were teddy bears with sticks and they beat down Imperial troopers!

Seriously I just like space adventures more. Also I have a thing for movies in which I find myself liking the Villian and I got that in spades from Star Wars.

[Gillianren]

Gillian is allowed to do that, especially if it's the name of an author she can't stand. (I allow other people to make typos, you know.)

[ToSeek]

We need to codify some of these rules....

[AGN Fuel]

Not even close. LotR for consistency and quality in the story telling across the three movies. The original Star Wars was a fabulous movie, the second was almost it's equal, but the third quite frankly was a farce.

Reason 3: Ewoks: C'mon! They were teddy bears with sticks and they beat down Imperial troopers!

Precisely - it turned from a science fiction saga into a sad & rather dull muppet movie. In any universe that I can imagine, a bunch of teddy bears with sticks taking on a force of storm troopers would quickly wind up looking like extras from a slasher flick.

[ToSeek]

Weren't the Ewoks just a glorified marketing opportunity?

[Redtail]

In any universe that I can imagine, a bunch of teddy bears with sticks taking on a force of storm troopers would quickly wind up looking like extras from a slasher flick.

But midgets with hairy feet can take on anything?

Weren't the Ewoks just a glorified marketing opportunity?

If not for the Ewok's christmas movie I'd say... Well I'd still say yes.

[SolusLupus]

But midgets with hairy feet can take on anything?

They "took on anything"? From what I remember, there was a lot of struggle, a missing finger, and a lot of sneaking... in fact, I don't remember the hobbits actually fighting that often. And when they did, running away was the most apt option.

The greatest accomplishment of Frodo was throwing a ring into a volcano. While neat and epic, it isn't quite that amazing... and the one thing standing in the way was a creature of similar size.

Then, further, it was only a handful of halflings, and they were hardly characteristic of their entire race. By that definition, isn't it a little strange that a handful of hairless monkeys that call themselves "humans" (and their lookalikes that don't) can take on an entire army of hairless non-monkeys that call themselves orcs?

[GDwarf]

I dislike Tolkien, and I disliked the LotR movies, I figured that they'd have the plot of the books (which I liked) without all the tedium (which I didn't.) Instead I find that the story was more 'inspired by' then 'based on', if they hadn't used the name LotR I'd probably have loved them, but I came expecting a certain story and got a different one. (OK, so I'm exaggerating, but I mean, c'mon, I could even understand if the changes served any purpose, but most of them don't.)

As for SW, IV was great, V was better, VI was great until about half way through, when I stopped being able to suspend my disbelief. I kinda wish that Lucas had trusted his first feeling and used Wookies instead of Ewoks, that would've actually made some sense. At the same time, bad for 1/2 a movie is better then mediocre for three, so SW gets my vote.

[Redtail]

They "took on anything"? From what I remember, there was a lot of struggle, a missing finger, and a lot of sneaking... in fact, I don't remember the hobbits actually fighting that often. And when they did, running away was the most apt option.

The greatest accomplishment of Frodo was throwing a ring into a volcano. While neat and epic, it isn't quite that amazing... and the one thing standing in the way was a creature of similar size.

Then, further, it was only a handful of halflings, and they were hardly characteristic of their entire race. By that definition, isn't it a little strange that a handful of hairless monkeys that call themselves "humans" (and their lookalikes that don't) can take on an entire army of hairless non-monkeys that call themselves orcs?

What about Sam? He took on the Spider, A good number of Orcs, Pippin Rode into battle with Orcs, Horses, Dragons, elephant... thingies.

As far as it being just a hand ful and being non charistic of thier race. How many stories are there where a Halfling/Hobbit left the village and didn't wind up in a battle with much bigger enemies?

[Ara Pacis]

I think I'd have to go with SW over LotR. At least SW is what the originator intended while the story of LotR is quite different from the book. Wait... 3 different versions of SW...

Can I vote B5? It's like the best of both.

[SolusLupus]

What about Sam? He took on the Spider, A good number of Orcs, Pippin Rode into battle with Orcs, Horses, Dragons, elephant... thingies.

True, but it wasn't easy. The Ewoks made killing stormtroopers in full armor with sticks and rocks look good here. Sam used a sword, a weapon made entirely for penetrating the armor and dealing with the foes he had to deal with.

Further, riding into battle doesn't matter much. I could ride into battle with 100 soldiers vs. 100 soldiers... that doesn't necessarily make me a mastah killer, now does it? It just makes me yet another soldier... a dimunitive one, at that. It was the darn elf that went around slaughtering foes.

For the record, I hate elves.

As far as it being just a hand ful and being non charistic of thier race. How many stories are there where a Halfling/Hobbit left the village and didn't wind up in a battle with much bigger enemies?

Have you read all the fanfiction? ALL of it? If not, then you go and tell me after you have... I'm not going to answer the question in the meantime.

Everyone has their own story, and for every Frodo, was many other hobbits that stayed home. '

Maybe I should stop using reason and logic when talking about videos... always seems to be a waste of time.

[Van Rijn]

I dislike Tolkien, and I disliked the LotR movies, I figured that they'd have the plot of the books (which I liked) without all the tedium (which I didn't.) Instead I find that the story was more 'inspired by' then 'based on', if they hadn't used the name LotR I'd probably have loved them, but I came expecting a certain story and got a different one. (OK, so I'm exaggerating, but I mean, c'mon, I could even understand if the changes served any purpose, but most of them don't.)

Funny, I thought they did a great job of adapting the books. There's just no way you can do a movie the same as a book, especially a long book (and really, it isn't so much a trilogy as a book in three parts) even in that many hours.

Anyway, you liked Voyager. 'Nuff said.

[Van Rijn]

Have you read all the fanfiction? ALL of it? If not, then you go and tell me after you have... I'm not going to answer the question in the meantime.

Everyone has their own story, and for every Frodo, was many other hobbits that stayed home. '

Maybe I should stop using reason and logic when talking about videos... always seems to be a waste of time.

By "fanfiction" do you mean the LOTR trilogy? Yes, most hobbits were stay-at-home types, though there were memorable hobbits in history, and most people everywhere are stay-at-homes.

[Van Rijn]

They "took on anything"? From what I remember, there was a lot of struggle, a missing finger, and a lot of sneaking... in fact, I don't remember the hobbits actually fighting that often. And when they did, running away was the most apt option.

Well, they are small, and they have a talent for sneaking. You can't expect them to take everyone straight on.

The greatest accomplishment of Frodo was throwing a ring into a volcano. While neat and epic, it isn't quite that amazing... and the one thing standing in the way was a creature of similar size.

Actually, he didn't, he was finally turned in the end, luckily Gollum was there. Having said that, it was amazing that they managed to survive that trip. It wasn't about fighting everybody on the way, it was about getting there. And the hobbits showed incredible strength of character. It was pretty clear that any human would have been quickly turned if they had worn the ring. It also was made quite clear that if any non-hobbit had been the ringbearer, Middle Earth would have become MordorLand. It was because hobbits were underestimated that they won.

[Tog]

Besides, odds are that a Hobbit, or an Ewok that get into a battle will face a foe larger than they are.

My understandig was that Hobbits were mainly stay at home types that just farmed and ate most of the time. The very few that left the Shire were rare, and seen as being far different than the main Hobbit population. Okay so Sam did turn out to be a shorter, probably furrier, version of Sgt. York, but even among human soldiers, Sgt. York was in a very small class.

I might have been able to buy the Ewoks as a warrior race if it were established in some way they they are food for everything on Endor (was that right?), yet still survived as a race due to cunning. As presented, they came off as the Rambo-bear (Rambear?) spin off of Care Bears.

[Redtail]

True, but it wasn't easy. The Ewoks made killing stormtroopers in full armor with sticks and rocks look good here. Sam used a sword, a weapon made entirely for penetrating the armor and dealing with the foes he had to deal with.

And the only time the Ewoks got kills it was with REALLY big logs. Sam stormed the danged prison by himself.

Further, riding into battle doesn't matter much. I could ride into battle with 100 soldiers vs. 100 soldiers... that doesn't necessarily make me a mastah killer, now does it? It just makes me yet another soldier... a dimunitive one, at that. It was the darn elf that went around slaughtering foes.

Uh-huh. And how many Rebel Troopers were there?

For the record, I hate elves.

I hate "Middle Earth" elves I like the ones from "Forgotten Relms" No Idea why.

Have you read all the fanfiction? ALL of it? If not, then you go and tell me after you have... I'm not going to answer the question in the meantime.

I'll give it a shot but you have to do the same for ALL Star Wars books.

Everyone has their own story, and for every Frodo, was many other hobbits that stayed home. '

I see your point and raise you that Wicket's was only one of many tribes on Endor.

Maybe I should stop using reason and logic when talking about videos... always seems to be a waste of time.

Very much so but then it's not like if we were having this discussion face to face we'd come to blows over it. To me this is just silly fun... Having typed that I was struck by the realization that if I bet $20,000,000 that some folk somewhere HAVE come to blows over this, I'd be rich.

[Redtail]

I might have been able to buy the Ewoks as a warrior race if it were established in some way they they are food for everything on Endor (was that right?), yet still survived as a race due to cunning. As presented, they came off as the Rambo-bear (Rambear?) spin off of Care Bears.

Ah, but it WAS established. Why else would they live in the trees developing ways to get from hut to hut without touching the ground if not to keep away from larger predators? The Bridges, elevators, and swing ropes/zip lines were part of that cunning. Also the weapons they had crafted would be for the predators that could climb the trees and they were able to take out. (I have watched that movie ENTIRELY too many times.)

[Gillianren]

By "fanfiction" do you mean the LOTR trilogy? Yes, most hobbits were stay-at-home types, though there were memorable hobbits in history, and most people everywhere are stay-at-homes.

No, fanfiction (which is so not canon!) is stuff other people have written set in the universe created by someone who got it published or produced or whatever. I really don't think it's fair to include it in an argument about the source material or its movie adaptation.

[Tog]

Ah, but it WAS established. Why else would they live in the trees developing ways to get from hut to hut without touching the ground if not to keep away from larger predators? The Bridges, elevators, and swing ropes/zip lines were part of that cunning. Also the weapons they had crafted would be for the predators that could climb the trees and they were able to take out. (I have watched that movie ENTIRELY too many times.)

It was suggested by that yes. Established would have been something along the lines of seeing a party of Ewoks take out a large catlike thing, or other highly mobile predator.

It also never seems to consider that the Empire might just nuke/burn the whole forest to clear them out. Once ants start to bite, you get the raid, not more ins to jab at them.

No, fanfiction (which is so not canon!) is stuff other people have written set in the universe created by someone who got it published or produced or whatever. I really don't think it's fair to include it in an argument about the source material or its movie adaptation.

Completely agree. Fanfiction may or may not have anything to do with the story as intended. I had a girlfriend that was a Trekkie. She had a book with some very interesting fanfiction about Kirk, Spock, Pon Far, and just how far one was willing to go for a friend. I don't think it was really considered an aspect of the officail timeline though.

I think I do recall that the basic plots of Star Trek, and Star Wars books have to be approved or some such, so as not to be too disruptive to the universe. But then, I don't know that those would be fanfiction.

[SolusLupus]

Actually, from what I've read on Star Wars internet forums, Lucas officially declared that almost all fan fiction is to be considered canon...

Anyways, either way, the Hobbits didn't come off as rambo on average. The Ewoks did. This seems pretty obvious to me.

As for Sam attacking a fortress... how much did that come from the books? And didn't he sneak his way in? I'd have to see the movie again to tell.

As for the "big logs"... watch it again. The stormtroopers fell down and collapsed after getting hit by rocks, in which the rambo bears kill 'em. I'm sorry, but they didn't just get kills with big logs...

Also: Armored personnel carrier with big guns vs. a big log, the log wins? Those things seem pretty weak to me.

[GDwarf]

Funny, I thought they did a great job of adapting the books. There's just no way you can do a movie the same as a book, especially a long book (and really, it isn't so much a trilogy as a book in three parts) even in that many hours.

Oh, I agree that it's near impossible to do a direct adaptation, but most of the changes didn't serve any purpose. I'm fine with them cutting out scenes, and even adding other ones to help explain something that got left out, but when you replace scenes with ones that serve no purpose...

[ToSeek]

Fanfiction may or may not have anything to do with the story as intended. I had a girlfriend that was a Trekkie. She had a book with some very interesting fanfiction about Kirk, Spock, Pon Far, and just how far one was willing to go for a friend.

Once upon a time, at least, that description (or an approximation thereof) would fit about half of all classic Trek fanfic.

[Gillianren]

Oh, I agree that it's near impossible to do a direct adaptation, but most of the changes didn't serve any purpose. I'm fine with them cutting out scenes, and even adding other ones to help explain something that got left out, but when you replace scenes with ones that serve no purpose...

Like that bloody flying car in Chamber of Secrets?

[Redtail]

It was suggested by that yes. Established would have been something along the lines of seeing a party of Ewoks take out a large catlike thing, or other highly mobile predator.

Hmmm. Ok.

It also never seems to consider that the Empire might just nuke/burn the whole forest to clear them out. Once ants start to bite, you get the raid, not more ins to jab at them.

They were worried that the radiation would intefere with the Shield projector. Also they fell for the Ewoks greatest disguise... Cuddliness!

As for Sam attacking a fortress... how much did that come from the books? And didn't he sneak his way in? I'd have to see the movie again to tell.

Part of the way then it was up the stairs Screaming "this is for the Shire!" "This is for Frodo!" and the audience started chanting "Rudy! Rudy! Rudy!"

As for the "big logs"... watch it again. The stormtroopers fell down and collapsed after getting hit by rocks, in which the rambo bears kill 'em. I'm sorry, but they didn't just get kills with big logs...

Well you're right about that. But how "Rambo" does one have to be to kill a guy lying on the ground in a suit of armor?

Also: Armored personnel carrier with big guns vs. a big log, the log wins? Those things seem pretty weak to me.

They were the light scout walkers, (AT-ST's I believe) and the two logs were moving pretty fast. That much weight moving at that speed...

Also there were Ewoks that died in the battle. How many hobbits were killed?