There is a conspiracy on this "conspiracy theories" forum

[homo_cosmosicus]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes
resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster,
calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum,
most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate
us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved... In other words, you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"... but remember, our constitution
is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

[R.A.F.]

...you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"...

Read the rules of this board!! You will find that "political discussions" are simply NOT ALLOWED here.

What is so hard to understand about that???

...but remember, our constitution
is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

What in the heck are you talking about???

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

I think that there are folks who don't particularly appreciate the structured nature of this forum, (it makes it difficult for them to "do the CT rant"), and will cry foul at the slightest provocation...

...my advice? Get over yourself...

[JimTKirk]

The only thing anyone on this board attacks is unsubstantiated rumors or conspiracies. This being a scientific board means we expect something to back up what is said. People here are not attacked, but the ideas that have no support are. If you post something, please read the rules as we follow them.

[N C More]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes
resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster,
calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

Please forward any posts where people are attacked and called names to the moderators, this is against the rules here.

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum,
most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate
us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved...

On the BAUT bulletin board all posters are required to support their arguments with scientific facts and sound evidence. BAUT is a science site. Also, please define the word, "radiculate", I'm not sure if I'm following your train of thought.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"... but remember, our constitution
is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

Political discussion is discouraged on this bulletin board. Please refer to the board's rules.

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

No.

[Infinity Watcher]

Quite frankly? No I don't ad hominem attacks are explicitly forbbidden by the rules, if you feel someone has insulted you you can report them to the mods. Ideas however are fair game. The thing people on this forum will ask for is evidence, and there are a number of engineers, physicists and so forth who know a lot about their respective fields, for some, such as JayUtah we even have evidence as to their credentials when they make a claim in their area of expertise you know that they are speaking as someone who knows what they're talking about so if you suggest a conspiracy theory the response will be: okay you've made a claim, now prove it and dodging quetions as to you're idea will not win you many friends, you posted it on a discussion board, it will now be discussed.

People here will then, if they see a fault in your reasoning tell you precisely what it is, you can then choose to either explain why such a reasoning is not at fault, providing evidence for it or explaining about how a logical leap is valid in the circumstances or you can if you can not support your claim you can then withdraw it, ideas here are held to the same standard as a scientific idea would be, on this board people deal in facts not opinions.

Secondly I'd like to point out that people here have seen just about every conspiracy theory you can dream of and a few that you probably can't and seeing the same ones over and over again with the same "evidence" that has been repeatedly shown to be irrelevant does start to grate a bit so people do occasonally get terse but as I mentioned earlier if it actually extends to a personal attack report to the mods, thats what they're there for.


Thirdly and I'm going to tread carefully here because of the no politics rules but there are people on this board who have no particular love for the american governement as it currently stands and might prefer say the democrats to the republicans to be in power, some are not even american, but these people are not convinced by the "evidence" provided by CTs.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and assume you're referring to the 9/11 conspiracy theories
The thing is it has been repeatedly shown by people who are qualified to judge that the collapse of the WTC towers bore no real resemblance to a controlled demolition and in fact fell in the way that would be expected for a building that had had a large plane with more fuel in it than was anticipated by the architects crash into it and was then subject to a large fire. The thing is sometimes it really feels like no one is listening when this evidence is pointed out and that can get irritating so when you (this is you in the general sense not you personally) are the Xth hundredth person to use an arguement especially if that arguement has a number of logical fallacies people may start getting somewhat terse (to risk gong back on myself here)

Edited for spelling and to clarify the final sentence

[PhantomWolf]

Personally I think that if you want to claim that the guy who has now several times told the Muslim world he organised it, and send the ones that did it, didn't actally do it, you're going to have to pony up the proof, and "I saw it and it looked to me like CD" doesn't cut the mustard (or even the cheese.)

[SpitfireIX]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA) is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster, calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

You are welcome to present any real evidence that you have for any of your theories. You are welcome to debate honestly and openly about your theories. You are welcome to ask as many serious questions as you wish about any aspects of the generally accepted versions of events.

You are not welcome merely to proclaim the existence of various conspiracies or make other extraordinary claims without presenting any real evidence for them, however. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and most posters here, including me, expect such.

As for attacking those who proclaim conspiracies, there are two major issues. The first is that, in the collective experience of those here, conspiracists tend to follow highly predictable behavior patterns. Every couple of months on average, an advocate of one or more conspiracy theories shows up here and begins proclaiming his or her views. Invariably, most or all of the "evidence" presented in support of such claims is demonstrably inaccurate, misinterpreted, or irrelevant, and has often already been thoroughly debunked. This naturally leads to an attitude among many of the regular posters here of "oh, no--here we go again." Further, many conspiracists demonstrate an almost religious fervor in their devotion to their theories, and, in our experience, no amount of evidence will convince them that their theories are wrong, because they simply refuse to be convinced. They tend to ignore or minimize much of the evidence presented that tends to disprove their claims, and often focus only on arguing peripheral points they think they can win. This naturally leads many people here to expect the worst from new posters who advocate conspiracies. Possibly you feel that you are being unfairly tarred with the same brush, but if so, the blame rests primarily with the many other conspiracists who've ruined it for all conspiracists.

Second, whether you realize it or not, when you make unfounded accusations of conspiracies, you are slandering those whom you falsely accuse, either directly or indirectly, of involvement in such conspiracies, and some people, myself included, tend to get angry about that.

One other point. I have never seen anyone who could even remotely be considered a conspiracy "expert" chased away. We only have one bona fide conspiracy expert, JayUtah, and even he is not an expert on all, or even the majority of, conspiracy theories (unless you've been holding out on us, Jay ). We have some other people who are highly knowlegeable about certain conspiracies--whether any of them can truly be classified as experts is debatable.

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum, most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why govt. was involved.

Yes, there is a "conspiracy" here. There is a "conspiracy" to expose ill-founded ideas and confused thinking, and to hold the purveyors of such accountable. If you think you have some real evidence for your theories, by all means present it. Don't be surprised if it's thoroughly demolished, though, because that's what invariably happens.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything what might seem to be "antigovernment"... but remember, our constitution is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

As noted, political statements and discussion are generally highly discouraged here. As for "antigovernment" statements, being unwelcome, I and many others here are firmly of the opinion that conspiracism is counterproductive and discourages responsible citizenship. Why should people bother to vote if "they" have already predetermined the outcome of the election? Why speak out if the Men in Black might come and take you away? Also, when conspiracists attack the Government for groundless reasons, they distract attention from legitimate criticism, and make it less likely that those with real complaints will be taken seriously by the Goverment, the media, or their fellow citizens.

[edit: omitted word]

[sts60]

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything what might seem to be "antigovernment"

Which is why posters like brumsen and turbonium have been banned... oh, wait a minute, they haven't been, have they?

This forum isn't a mutual support society for conspiracy "theorists"; it's a skeptic forum populated by people who collectively have a lot of relevant knowledge and experience. If you want to claim such-and-such happened, or didn't happen, you'd better be prepared for a critical examination of those claims, and you'd better have more than a regurgitation of conspiracist websites with which to back them up.

[jrkeller]

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum,
most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate
us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved.

Hey someone finally figured it out. There is a conspiracy here. It is a conspiracy of people who demand proof, not innuendoes, not feelings, not there is a fuzzy dot on this photograph so it must be conspiracy, not the government lied about something, so it always lies and not personal agendas.

It is conspiracy of people who believe dozens of eyewitnesses and not a fuzzy video image, who believe in science like the First Law of Thermodynamics works, who believe in mathematics, who know the internet does contain the answer to everything, who believe experts in their field, and who admit to being wrong when presented with facts.

As an "old-timer" on this board, let me give you a few examples of past CT experiences.

Four years ago, we had a poster, who was not banned, named Cosmic Dave who believed the moon landings were hoaxed. He has a website about it. He told us a lot of things, but one of things that stuck out on my mind was that the cameras would get too hot. I challenged him on that point and asked for a thermal analysis to prove it. He said he would, but I'm still waiting four years later.

We've got several 9/11CTs who have been telling us that thermite brought the WTC not an aircraft. They have told us that it takes 762.5 kg or 1681 lbs to melt one column and there are 44 columns. Of course this amount assumes perfect combustion, but since Steven Jones has found traces of thermite that would mean that the combustion wasn't perfect and that brings up the mass. Let's see 44 colums multiplied by 1681 lbs give almost 74, 000 lbs of thermite. Then's there the wires, detonators. All that was done in three buildings (WTCS 1,2,7) with over 200 tons of material, done in 8 1/2 months and no one ever noticed. BTW, just so you know, thermite website has about a half dozen errors, which bump up the mass to about double.

[ToSeek]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes
resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster,
calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

Name-calling is explicitly banned on this forum. If you think you are being called names, then you are free to report those posts to the moderators, and we will deal with them. But we don't often act pre-emptively. (I for one don't even visit this area unless obliged to do so.)

[sts60]

Let's also not forget the history on this board of "mainstream" supporters getting banned for failure to abide by the board rules. How often on a conspiracist website is anyone who buys into their viewpoint banned for lack of civility or other non-viewpoint offenses?

[Donnie B.]

...This naturally leads to an attitude among many of the regular posters here of "oh, no--here we go again."

Funny thing. My reaction is often closer to, "Oh, goodie -- here we go again."

[JayUtah]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed...

Well, those are two different things. There are plenty of people who question the government -- as they should -- without being "really into conspiracy theories". The latter usually indicates a fairly uncritical approach to claims of any nature, governmental or otherwise.

...and often being "attacked"

No, we don't attack people. We challenge ideas as a means of testing whether belief in them is justified.

...calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

No, we don't engage in name-calling. What we do here is loosely termed "critical thinking," and it involves using objective methods of evaulating claims. If anyone here is "chased away" it's usually because he realizes that we are tougher nuts to crack than the typical loose-minded conspiracy nut. We actually ask questions that have to do with fact rather than innuendo, and we tend to be highly trained in the sciences that apply to the questions. Most conspiracists expect approval and encouragement. They're generally only happy where people don't question their beliefs.

As for "free thinking", you'll find we're open to most anything. But we do, sadly, draw the line between fantasy and reality. "Free thinking" is, too often, make-believe expected to be taken commensurately with fact. Sorry, but you actually need more than imagination in order to discover truth.

...most of the old members just pretend something

Um, many of the members here are very highly qualified in their fields, many of which bear on the theories being discussed. Just because the typical conspiracy theorist doesn't understand the explanations given doesn't make those explanations false.

...who know something and have ideas, theories...

If you claim to know something you'll be asked to demonstrate that knowledge. Unfortunately too many conspiracists are accustomed claiming knowledge they don't have, in order to impress gullible readers, and then finding ways to evade questioning by people with legitimate expertise.

If you have an idea or a theory, it is welcome. What is not welcome are propositions which are merely ideas or theories, and which are being put forward as if they were fact. Ideas are tested here. The strength with which you propose something is the strength with which it will be tested. Something labled "just a theory" will be considered as "just a theory". Instead we often find that we're accused of blindness or closed-mindedness for not accepting a theory as immediately valid, when in fact we may have provided good reasons not to believe it and those reasons have gone unrecognized.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything what might seem to be "antigovernment"...

Hogwash.

You aren't allowed to have political discussions, but you are allowed to present and defend theories that question acts of government officials. What you're not allowed to post here are baseless claims or logically and factually bankrupt arguments.

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

Yes, there is a conspiracy to put ideas to the test according to our best knowledge of the relevant fields and our best ability to reason dispassionately.

[Gillianren]

On the BAUT bulletin board all posters are required to support their arguments with scientific facts and sound evidence. BAUT is a science site. Also, please define the word, "radiculate", I'm not sure if I'm following your train of thought.

I believe it's intended to mean "ridicule."

I think it's ironic that someone who told us that we don't respect anything is now claiming to have been needlessly personally attacked.

Actually, brief review will show that we sometimes regret not having conspiracy theorists around, and conversation in this particular area gets a little slow without them. However, what I think we all want is an articulate debater with new ideas. Doesn't happen, though.

[Ara Pacis]

I think that "conspiracy" generally means a secret collusion. This forum is not secret, thus no conspiracy. Sorry guys, you're Resistance Debunkers, not Anti-conspiracy Conspirators.

[PhantomWolf]

freethinker

In my experience a "freethinker" tends to be someone that has read a bunch of websites expounding a certian political belief that matches the individuals who then swallows them hook line and sinker without any actual thought.

us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved...

If you want to prove that OBL was lying last month (and a few times previous to that) and that the US did it themselves, fine, go for. But remember that the ultimate word here is PROVE. This means that you are expectd to bring hard cold facts and evidence to the table, susposition, feelings and "this looked funny." If you make a claim here, you are expected to back it up with more thant handwaving, bad pseudosciense, quoting websites and speculation.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"...

No, you aren't allowed to post personal attacks or political statments, totally different. Besides, you seem to be assuming that everyone here is Pro-US Government, this couldn't be further from the truth. Many of us aren't Americans for a start and many that are, aren't supporters of the current Administration, it just we can't post our political feelings either. Personally, as a non-american I have a lot of contempt for the current US Administration in 99% of it's policies (About the only widely publised one I support is the return to the Moon, while my opinions on Iraq and GW's intelligence would get me banned quicker than skidding on black ice for both Ad Homimen attack and political posting.) I also have little respect for previous Administrations Foriegn Policies and the way they have often treated other countries, including my own. Again, delveing too far down that road will result in nasty warnings though, so I'm going to end it there. Most people here that know me know my political leanings on the matter, so I'm not planning to voice them further against the rules. I do know that many here have similar feelings though. Just because we support the conclusion of the inquiry, doesn't mean we support the ones that called for it, nor entirely the way it was done, or the result of it it all. Just that from the evidence we have seen from both sides, the weight of real support falls on the offical story side while the other largely consists of political motive, bad assumptions, pseudoscience and a lot of handwaving. If you want to change that, by all means go for it, but do it with real and hard evidence, not misunderstandings, CT website quotes, political rants and handwaving.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Also, please define the word, "radiculate", I'm not sure if I'm following your train of thought.

He won't. Notice how every other word in his post is spelled correctly. It was an obvious attempt to bait someone into ridiculing him about his spelling, thereby proving his point.

[homo_cosmosicus]

He won't. Notice how every other word in his post is spelled correctly.
It was an obvious attempt to bait someone into ridiculing him about
his spelling, thereby proving his point.

I didn't want to argue here, but, all right, now I have to write few words...

This person is wrong - I didn't make any attempts to "bait someone"
into ridiculing me... and my spelling is bad, I rarely use spell check tools,
and besides, I don't really have time for it with my job.

Now back to topic:

I won't be long. I do not want to argue with all this "sceptics", "critics",
if there was somebody open-minded, like me, I would argue, but sorry,
but I don't see anybody in this thread.. the last person is even accusingm e
of making attempts to bait someone.

I saw WTC falling down, in fashion of controled demolition, and immediately
I suspected that something is wrong here... I was right, smarter people then me
figured out, proved, did scientific calculations, collected all the data...
It was the first building int he world to fall down after only few hours of fire...
Others would burn for days, and still stay where they are, tall and straight.
It is very sad, but, we have to face the facts.


UFO - I saw them few times, and took pictures of those ET crafts.
I don't care do you believe me or not.

Moon landing - I was big fan of the whole Apollo program, but now,
with all the facts, it is sad, but no, we haven't been on the Moon.
Its all one big fraud.

And no, I'm not going to argue with all of you, after seeing how many
of you are here, I realized, this is not about discusstion on "Conspiracy Theories",
but rather this is forum how to better debunk "Conspiracy Theories".
Therefore, I'm on the wrong forum.
Look at the description of the forum:
Is NASA hiding something? (no) Are there aliens on Mars? (no)
Look at that "no", it clearly directs users not to believe in Conspiracy Theories...

[Nicolas]

I saw WTC falling down, in fashion of controled demolition, and immediately
I suspected that something is wrong here... I was right, smarter people then me
figured out, proved, did scientific calculations, collected all the data...

I saw WTC falling down (on TV). It looked like it collapsed to me. I was right, smarter people then me figured out, proved, did scientific calculations, collected all the data... It is so easy to write something like this down. It does not matter who's smarter than you, it matters who's right.

So your overall message is that you, a self-proclaimed open minded being, is on the wrong forum here because we don't believe in the common conspiracy theories, and you do not want to argue them? If you're so convinced of your conspiracies, I would assume you would love to explain them to us close minded people in an attempt to crack our skulls with the facts.

[gwiz]

It was the first building int he world to fall down after only few hours of fire...
Others would burn for days, and still stay where they are, tall and straight.

How many of those other buildings had an airliner fly into them at cruise speed?

If you're really open minded you can answer this question:

"Is there any evidence that anyone could produce that would make you change your mind about Apollo or WTC?"

[PhantomWolf]

smarter people then me figured out, proved, did scientific calculations, collected all the data...

Then you'll have no trouble proving it rather than just claiming it, right?

I was big fan of the whole Apollo program, but now,
with all the facts, it is sad, but no, we haven't been on the Moon.
Its all one big fraud.

Then you'll have no trouble proving it rather than just claiming it, right?

[Maksutov]

I didn't want to argue here, but, all right, now I have to write few words...

This person is wrong - I didn't make any attempts to "bait someone"
into ridiculing me... and my spelling is bad, I rarely use spell check tools,
and besides, I don't really have time for it with my job.

What do you do?

Now back to topic:

I won't be long. I do not want to argue with all this "sceptics", "critics",
if there was somebody open-minded, like me, I would argue, but sorry,
but I don't see anybody in this thread.. the last person is even accusingm e
of making attempts to bait someone.

Careful. When CTers are at a loss for any evidence, they tend to start getting a persecution complex. With the way this BB is managed, the only cause of such a complex is the CTers themselves.

I saw WTC falling down, in fashion of controled demolition, and immediately
I suspected that something is wrong here... I was right, smarter people then me
figured out, proved, did scientific calculations, collected all the data...
It was the first building int he world to fall down after only few hours of fire...

Ironic. That's what I thought initially when the south tower went down. Then I put my emotions in check and did some thinking along physics and architecture lines. I realized that with the design of those buildings, a major failure in part of the support structure would "cascade" into a general, gravity-related failure of the complete system. I thought back to the 1987 L’Ambiance Plaza disaster in Bridgeport, CT, where the already erected floors pancaked down in a similar fashion.

Others would burn for days, and still stay where they are, tall and straight. It is very sad, but, we have to face the facts.

Days? Please cite. Plus how many of those were hit with aircraft loaded with a 3000+ mile load of jet fuel? Seems you're right, you need to face the facts, not the innuendo and subterfuge.

UFO - I saw them few times, and took pictures of those ET crafts.
I don't care do you believe me or not.

Pictures? Hey, share them with us!

Moon landing - I was big fan of the whole Apollo program, but now,
with all the facts, it is sad, but no, we haven't been on the Moon.
Its all one big fraud.

What evidence might you provide to back up this conclusion?

And no, I'm not going to argue with all of you, after seeing how many
of you are here, I realized, this is not about discusstion on "Conspiracy Theories",
but rather this is forum how to better debunk "Conspiracy Theories".

Actually, we're not here to argue. We're here to discuss. Discussions involve things like evidence. How about providing us with some?

Therefore, I'm on the wrong forum.

Might be, if you expect folks here to accept anything you present without evidence.

Look at the description of the forum:
Is NASA hiding something? (no) Are there aliens on Mars? (no)
Look at that "no", it clearly directs users not to believe in Conspiracy Theories...

If you can provide some objective evidence that NASA is hiding something and that there are aliens on Mars, you can be sure that description would change immediately. So far, there's been no reason to modify it.

Meanwhile I keep a picture of Christine Lee Hanson on my desk, to remind me about a young life that was destroyed by those criminals who hijacked her plane, and also to remind me of all those conspiracy theorists who would desecrate her memory.

I'm really tired of this forum.

[jt-3d]

I'm really tired of this forum.

Welcome to the club.

[sts60]

I do not want to argue with all this "sceptics", "critics",
if there was somebody open-minded, like me, I would argue, but sorry,
but I don't see anybody in this thread...

You can flatter yourself that you are "open-minded" but it means little if you are not willing to back up your claims. Sorry, but this is the wrong place if all you're looking for is getting your ego stroked that you see through all those big bad gubmint conspiracies.

I saw WTC falling down, in fashion of controled demolition, and immediately
I suspected that something is wrong here... I was right, smarter people then me figured out, proved, did scientific calculations, collected all the data...

Yes, a lot of structural engineers figured out how the combination of impact damage and fires caused the towers to collapse.

It was the first building int he world to fall down after only few hours of fire...

This is flat-out incorrect; buildings collapse from fire every day. I suppose you meant skyscrapers, but your statement is still incorrect; the WTC buildings did not collapse from fire alone.

Others would burn for days, and still stay where they are, tall and straight.

Others had neither the unique construction of the WTC towers nor heavy jetliners flying into them.

It is very sad, but, we have to face the facts.

Agreed; are you willing to face them?

UFO - I saw them few times, and took pictures of those ET crafts.
I don't care do you believe me or not.

Why don't you start a new thread and link to your images so we can look at them - and discuss them?

Moon landing - I was big fan of the whole Apollo program, but now,
with all the facts, it is sad, but no, we haven't been on the Moon.
Its all one big fraud.

Yes, you keep saying that, but you have yet to back up your assertion with anything other than some vague (and factually incorrect) handwaving about how long it should have taken, which was promptly rebutted. You have neither addressed the rebuttal nor attempted to back up this claim in any other way.

Again, this isn't another conspiracist board where everybody gets their self-esteem raised just for bleating about the NASA-CIA-NSA-AFL-CIO-Illuminati-Vatican-British royal family-alien reptilian lizard-Major League Baseball conspiracy behind every historical event going back to the discovery of dirt. We look at things critically and demand evidence to back up claims. If you think repeating your belief is evidence, you're not going to fare very well, but that's not our fault.

[peter eldergill]

Did you mean forum, or thread?

Pete

[Randall Cameron]

No conspiracy here. (I'm new, and halfway around the world, so I could not be a part of one.)

The fundamental problem with conspiracy theories (beyond the overwhelming weight of readily available evidence pointing to the generally accepted explanations of events) is quite simple. In Yemen they say, "if two people know it, it isn't a secret".

This is much more so nowadays, when anyone can make millions, get on Oprah, sell the movie rights, etc. if they provide definitive proof of a conspiracy or scandal.

Tens of thousands worked on Apollo. If it was faked, lots of folks with firsthand knowledge would have been involved in the fakery for logistical reasons. Not one of them has turned and talked, because of conscience, or simply to make a buck and be famous?

Even more so for 9-11, which has been investigated (who knew what and when?) to death by both government and the media. Are relatives of the victims part of the cover-up? Who flew the planes and willingly blew themselves up, just to blame it on someone else? For what purpose?

If you simply question whether the fuel load is enough to bring down a building, consider the amount of work involved in hurling a 300 ton 767 5,000+ km at mach 0.8. The smallest model takes off with 60 tons of Jet-A on board. Do you really believe that cutting the tower with a 150 ton knife, followed by burning 60 tons of kerosene in the interior might not cause a collapse? Who planted the explosives? How did none of the building security or maintenance people happen to notice? How did they keep the explosives from raggedly ripple firing when the airplanes (and fuel) hit, causing an immediate lopsided collapse?

Any explanation other than what you thought you saw on TV raises far more difficult questions than it answers. And requires lots of people, some of whom are bound to talk when the stakes are so high.

Hey, wasn't the world supposed to end on May 25? Why am I still stuck in this office?

[Randall Cameron]

Oops - the 767 weighs only 150 tons.

And I think he meant "thread". Kind of funny to complain about something you voluntarily read and post to.

[homo_cosmosicus]

What do you do?

If I tell you, I'll have to kill you.

Meanwhile I keep a picture of Christine Lee Hanson on my desk, to remind me about a young life that was destroyed by those criminals who hijacked her plane, and also to remind me of all those conspiracy theorists who would desecrate her memory.

The only reason I reply again, although I promised not to reply,
is to pay the respect for that victim... seems like if she was
somebody close to your heart.

... do not wish to use this moment to remind you, but isn't the truth
most important to you, since you lost somebody you love?!

Sorry, but, well, I have to write this again:
Our govt is responsible for terror attack, together with Israeli Mossad.
They benefit the most (our millitary and Israeli enemy is beaten although
has nothing to do with terror attack - Iraq) and unfortunatelly, the innocent people suffer.

[SpitfireIX]

Our govt is responsible for terror attack, together with Israeli Mossad. They benefit the most (our millitary and Israeli enemy is beaten although has nothing to do with terror attack - Iraq) and unfortunatelly, the innocent people suffer.

This is the second time you have claimed that Israel was involved in the September 11 attacks. Kindly provide some evidence or retract the claim.

If your only intention was to come here, proclaim that you strongly disagree with the majority of the regular posters, and then withdraw from the debate, then you truly are a troll, just as surely as if you were to go to an atheists' forum and post "You're gonna burn! In the eternal fire!!!" and then withdraw, or a Christians' forum and post, "You people are so silly and irrational! God doesn't exist!" and then withdraw.

[mid]

Why am I not surprised that it turns out to be Israel's fault?

Riddle me this, homo_cosmosicus, if America were doing this all for Israel's benefit, why Iraq and Afghanistan, rather than Syria or Jordan? Why not the West Bank itself?

The evidence that your Government were responsible is full of holes. The evidence that your Government made full use of the subsequent situation to achieve other goals is rather more substantial, but wholly political and so not applicable on this site.